Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

Spain would certainly be happy to build a couple of improved F101/Hobarts, and they are desperate for more work with nothing coming after the last F110.

This Destroyer category as I put before is for AAW Frigate/Destroyer. So unless Navantia try to compete with Fincantieri on FREMM alternative, they have to give something with more VLS to compete with Chinese Type 052D offer. Type 052D have 64 VLS Spesifikasi Kapal Perusak Type 052D, Kombatan China yang Siap Diekspor ke Luar Negeri, thus if this is what Navantia try to counter, they should at least bring 32-48 VLS design.

Lobby partner with connection to political factions, is important on any defense procurement. Especially important for Indonesian defense procurement. Navantia is bringing ANK which is from what I gather is having reputation as long term Defense Insiders/Middle Man/Lobbyist.

PT Agrapana Nugraha Katara

ankindonesian.com

This is why Indonesian defense enthusiasts quite buzzing on speculation on this deal. Unlike Fincantieri that bring local shipyard as Partner, Navantia so far shown no sign on that. Similar thing with Chinese offer that also come without local shipyard partner (at least so far the rumours is shown that).

For one thing China also tied in with lobbyist with strong political connection. However so far Euro and Turkish vendors that have gain traction more. Still nothing in sure thing when doing lobby in Indonesia. This is not Soeharto time anymore with one door policy. Now for at least two decades more, each political factions have more or less similar potential to goal their lobby. All depends on political bargain behind multiple doors.

Welcome to democracy, at least democracy Indonesian style.

Add:
On Chinese Destroyer offer, Indonesia can go with Thai ways when they procure Frigate from China. Naresuan Class basically is China Type 53 Frigate derivative, with US Weapons and Euro sensors. China from the rumours that I gather, also offer two option:

1. China build all package including weapons and sensors.​

2. China build the vessels but Indonesia can choose others propulsion. They even offer to send the vessels as FFBNW to be integrated by Indonesian yard with sensors and weapons they are choosing.​

​

Something that Navantia need to prepare their own offer package as counter on China ones. For one thing, China can offer better prices.

​

 

[Meriv90]

What does Indonesia need?

Do you need a AAW Frigate? like a french FREMM-DA or a PPA FULL with more vls (the Radars on PPA Full should be on par with the FREMM).
A 2000-2010s European Destroyer like Horizon Class or Type 45 ?
Or a 2030 Destroyer that are literally 10k+ cruisers?

And what is the time frame? Because we are already planning the next generation you could get some good deals on some older class or newer class.

 

[Ananda]

What does Indonesia need?

Good question, as this moment the talk in media, officially they (Navy and MinDef) talk for Destroyer with AAW capabilities. However 'Destroyer' is very broad term as it could also mean Heavy Frigate. The speculation that come out is they aim for 2 of the ship on that capabilities. As I say before, it is actually not a new plan, as they (Navy) already plan it from the 90's.

Base on media report and rumours those who already submitted or hinted the offer (including some of ships that's being officially visited):

Dutch/Damen Zeven Provincien,
Chinese Type 054B,
Spanish/Navantia F101/110 derivatives.

Those are the types that's 'rumours' being offered, and it is also rumours that Fincantieri hinting on Orizonte Class derivatives. There are also speculation on ROK KDX-II. Thus considering the types being talk, the similarities:

• 5500-7000 tons,
• 145-160m
• 32-64 VLS.

On the time frames, like I said before, it is already decades old plan. I believe if they got budget they will try to get both of them within this Decade. Again the time frames so far just wild speculations base on rumours. All back to budget priority, and GP or ASW Frigates and Corvettes I suspect still priority.

However with Geopolitics development, who knows they can decide to fasten the procurement. The signs already shown that trend.

 

[Meriv90]

Since DDX and Type 83 are coming probably you could get a good offer on second Hand Horizon/T45. If you want to go Destroyer/Frigate distinction route.

If you want to go the Spanish/Dutch/Norwegian way with a strong AAW Frigate consider also that since we sold you the 2 PPA Fincantieri has to build another 2 PPA for the navy meaning that a new queque will be open probably with good pricing.

 

[StevoJH]

Since DDX and Type 83 are coming probably you could get a good offer on second Hand Horizon/T45. If you want to go Destroyer/Frigate distinction route.

If you want to go the Spanish/Dutch/Norwegian way with a strong AAW Frigate consider also that since we sold you the 2 PPA Fincantieri has to build another 2 PPA for the navy meaning that a new queque will be open probably with good pricing.

Not until after 2040 most likely for the first Type 45.

Do France or Italy even have a replacement program underway for Horizon yet?

 

[Meriv90]

No the DDX are supposed to replace the previous class of destroyers.

There is still no replacement plan and last year we approved the MLU

OCCAR, NAVIRIS and EUROSAM sign MLU Contract for French & Italian Horizon-class AAW Frigates - Naval News

On July 18, 2023, a ceremony was held at the OCCAR-EA premises, to celebrate the signing of the MLU Contract for the Horizon-class Frigates.

www.navalnews.com

But since we are selling right and left our own fleet you never know.

 

[koxinga]

Base on media report and rumours those who already submitted or hinted the offer (including some of ships that's being officially visited):

Dutch/Damen Zeven Provincien,
Chinese Type 054B,
Spanish/Navantia F101/110 derivatives.

Those are the types that's 'rumours' being offered, and it is also rumours that Fincantieri hinting on Orizonte Class derivatives. There are also speculation on ROK KDX-II. Thus considering the types being talk, the similarities:

• 5500-7000 tons,
• 145-160m
• 32-64 VLS.

Technically, both PPA and Red/White frigates or enhanced variants can meet this so called "AAW" requirement and there isn't a need for another new type/platform.

But seeing these rumoured examples, the common element is they feature powerful command and control capabilities, long range sensors. In particular, fitted with SM-3/Aster 30 later blocks or Chinese HHQ-9s, some limited anti-ballistic missile capabilities.

It seems this need goes beyond a big umbrella of anti-air capabilities, but some degree of anti-missile capabilities.

 

[Ananda]

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TNI-AL Chief in China visiting 2 Shipyard (Jiangnan in Shanghai and Wuchang in Wuhan) and UAV producers. Jiangnan Shipyard is producers of Chinese Frigates and Destroyers, while Wuchang is the shipyard in Wuhan that specialized in PLA SSK.

Keris FB quote info on Type 052D that's being presented (I believe in Jiangnan) while in Wuchang he got presentation of S26 SSK. As reminder this is practically export variance of Type 039 SSK, similar with what China offer to Thailand.

There's enough rumours now, just like AAW Destroyer/Frigate that's being source on Foreign shipyard, so does additional submarine as PAL will be hands full with NG Evolved Scorpene.

particular, fitted with SM-3/Aster 30 later blocks or Chinese HHQ-9s, some limited anti-ballistic missile capabilities.

Previously I always thought the Red-White/FMP will be build for more AAW, while PPA being more GP. Both with adequate ASW capabilities. Now this talk on more dedicated AAW destroyer perhaps as you have put, being prepare with longer range area defense plus limited ABM.

I don't think Indonesia prospect on SM-3 will be big, however Aster 3, or Chinese HHQ-9 and Turkiye Siper in paper seems will more or less provide similar capabilities. All three that's being hinted can be available to Indonesia.

While FMP if got Turkish missiles, more likely naval variance of Hisar O, while PPA already be hinted will have Aster 15. Both more to short-medium coverage.

So yes seems this AAW Frigate/Destroyer so far shown indication will be equip with something that have longer range capabilities then Aster 15 or Hisar O.

 

[koxinga]

It is not just about the missiles but the entire system (fixed faced AESA radar maybe S band for long range >500km, battle management) that you are buying. That would be the main difference with the previous AAW frigate options

The European option would probably be Thales Sea Fire + Senit/Taticos with Aster 30, and Turk option with Cafrad + ADVENT with Siper.

Well, that my guess.

 

[Ananda]

Yes it is the whole system that need to be integrating. This is why there're increasing public information battle between salesman. Between those who represents Thales-MBDA and Aselsan-Roketsan.

Thales off course with their agents try to maintain their market, especially with TNI-AL. Thus this market incursion from Turkiye, and now even those Chinese Sales Agents, will be interesting to see how Thales try to lobby this out.

 

[Ananda]

Not many photos on Indonesian Navy sole cruiser, the Sverdlov class KRI Irian. Especially after the fall of Soekarno. This photo that I found in one Indonesian defense sites originate from National Archives. Taken in 1970 during ceremony of New Navy Chief.

The Cruiser still in operational condition, but not doing much patrolling duties anymore. At least from information by that time. It is inform by TNI-AL archive, that three years from that time, the Cruiser send to Taiwan for scraping.

It is already outdated by that time, and hugely expensive to maintain. Especially with Soeharto relationship with USSR that time, means Indonesia need to buy spare parts in 'market' prices and not in 'friendly' prices of Soekarno era.

It is also rumoured that US give 4 Claud Jones class Frigate/Destroyer Escort as compensation for scraping KRI Irian. Seems the rumours come as those Claud Jones DE come to Indonesia at similar time frame on KRI Irian scraping.

 

[Ananda]

Two Small 40m Patrol Vessels being officially accepted by Navy Chief. This will be use in Eastern Indonesia waters. This vessels is tone down simpler version of 40m Missiles Boats. As why they call Fast Patrol Vessels (KCP) instead Fast Missile Vessels (KCR). For thar they will be only armed with 30mm gun and 2 12.5mm machine guns.

Honestly TNI-AL should relinquish more Patrol Duties to Coast Guard, as also this kind of Vessels. But heck, what do I know why the Navy still want to dominate maritime constabulary duties, instead the Coast Guard.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

View attachment 51327

Two Small 40m Patrol Vessels being officially accepted by Navy Chief. This will be use in Eastern Indonesia waters. This vessels is tone down simpler version of 40m Missiles Boats. As why they call Fast Patrol Vessels (KCP) instead Fast Missile Vessels (KCR). For thar they will be only armed with 30mm gun and 2 12.5mm machine guns.

Honestly TNI-AL should relinquish more Patrol Duties to Coast Guard, as also this kind of Vessels. But heck, what do I know why the Navy still want to dominate maritime constabulary duties, instead the Coast Guard.

When a country has a vast area of sea to patrol, it needs a lot of warships, but the limited defence budget also limits the size and capabilities of the vessels. So both the BAKAMLA and TNI-AL need more and larger ships, and the navy shouldn't be so childish and try to limit the capabilities of BAKAMLA. Like you said before the navy needs more larger patrolboats/corvettes. The OPV-90 can be perfect for this task, but the first steel cutting was in August 2021, and until now there seems to be little progress.


The two PC-40 Pari class patrolboats, KRI Butana 878 dan KRI Selar 879, are delivered by PT Citra Shipyards in FFBNW-configuration. Will these two vessels be outfitted with the Marlin 30 mm canon and 12,7 mm machine guns by the navy or by another shipyard like PAL?

 

[Ananda]

The OPV-90 can be perfect for this task, but the first steel cutting was in August 2021, and until now there seems to be little progress.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1780550126400061745

One of local defense enthusiasts put in his X the progress of OPV 90. Seems from possition of Feb (I believe I already put the link on that), the hull seems close to finish, and they should begin to integrate the superstructure modules.

The delay seems related to changes of design and specs. From 90m to 98m, and basically this is only OPV in name. It is basically a Corvette/Light Frigates. Which is why I do believe the FMP/Red-White Frigates will also be face delay as it is also having quite substantial changes in design from base Babcock design. I'm no naval engineer or architect, but I believe increasing dimensions including length, can be catagorise as substantial changes.

Will these two vessels be outfitted with the Marlin 30 mm canon and 12,7 mm machine guns by the navy or by another shipyard like PAL?

I don't know which shipyard outside PAL has the capabilities doing weapon integration. The Noahtu Shipyard in their website claim they already has that capabilities. However as far as I know all weapons integration still done by PAL. Perhaps other members has that knowledge.

 

[Ananda]

Another SINKEX being done by TNI-AL yesterday.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1788738589876199935

The target is retired Kondor class minesweeper originate from East German fleet.

 

[Ananda]

Here we go again, another talk of interim assets. This time interim Submarine

KSAL ungkap rencana usulkan pembelian kapal selam interim

Kepala Staf TNI Angkatan Laut (KSAL) Laksamana TNI Muhammad Ali mengungkap TNI AL kemungkinan mengusulkan pembelian kapal selam untuk penggunaan sementara ...

m.antaranews.com

Let's s see, the talk of interim assets, talk about ready use assets to fill the gap until the intended assets come to operation. So far the talk on interim Assets:

• Interim Fighters, with Mirage 2K as interim ones until all Rafale ready. Status being hold (not clear if terminate or not),
• Interim Frigates, with Bremen Class being targeted, then move to Maestrale. All so far shown being terminate.

Now this talk on Interim Submarine, before being circulate to take 209 from Brazil or South Africa Inventory. Just like other interim solution, being hold due to political 'hot' card toward opposition on procurement of second hand assets. Now as new President election already over, will this interim solution become reality?

The underlying talk on interim, actually in my opinion not really become stop gap assets, due to budget realism. Budget that can't afford to procure all brand new assets. Thus second hand assets need to be add to fill the gap on new assets and targeted quantities.

The talk of whether 8 or 12 Submarines is not new ones. All back to realism of budget on how to achieve the actual quantities being envisage. All newly build assets, or combination of used and new.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Here we go again, another talk of interim assets. This time interim Submarine

KSAL ungkap rencana usulkan pembelian kapal selam interim

Kepala Staf TNI Angkatan Laut (KSAL) Laksamana TNI Muhammad Ali mengungkap TNI AL kemungkinan mengusulkan pembelian kapal selam untuk penggunaan sementara ...

m.antaranews.com

Let's s see, the talk of interim assets, talk about ready use assets to fill the gap until the intended assets come to operation. So far the talk on interim Assets:

• Interim Fighters, with Mirage 2K as interim ones until all Rafale ready. Status being hold (not clear if terminate or not),
• Interim Frigates, with Bremen Class being targeted, then move to Maestrale. All so far shown being terminate.

Now this talk on Interim Submarine, before being circulate to take 209 from Brazil or South Africa Inventory. Just like other interim solution, being hold due to political 'hot' card toward opposition on procurement of second hand assets. Now as new President election already over, will this interim solution become reality?

The underlying talk on interim, actually in my opinion not really become stop gap assets, due to budget realism. Budget that can't afford to procure all brand new assets. Thus second hand assets need to be add to fill the gap on new assets and targeted quantities.

The talk of whether 8 or 12 Submarines is not new ones. All back to realism of budget on how to achieve the actual quantities being envisage. All newly build assets, or combination of used and new.

Sometimes second hand material can be the right solution. The Nakhoda Ragam/Bung Tomo class corvettes were around ten years old during acquisition, never used, in good condition and still modern. That was really value for money. Also the 24 second hand F-16C/D Block 25 fighters can be used for 20-30 years, and from a type already in use by our armed forces.

But what we don't need is old obsolete worn out stuff which do not fit in our current fleet/arsenal. Like what you said the 33 year old F122 Bremen class frigate Lübeck F214 or those 40 year old Maestrale class ships. Old obsolete vessels with weapon-, sensor and propulsion systems never or currently not in use by TNI-AL. Besides that there was a chance that these old vessels will be sold to Indonesia in a stripped down FFBNW-condition.

And in my opinion it also wasn't really a good idea in the past to get the Project 1174 Nosorog (Ivan Rogov) class amphibious transport ship or the Type 206 submarines.

 

[Ananda]

my opinion it also wasn't really a good idea in the past to get the Project 1174 Nosorog (Ivan Rogov) class amphibious transport ship or the Type 206 submarines.

Agree on Ivan Rogov, in which they then terminate that and approach ROK Daesun for cooperation in LPD design. Which then give Makasar Class. This is consider as successful ToT coop, which then many in Indonesian political and bureaucracy cycles believe any coop should used this as model.

However 206 I do believe still a relatively good example on interim solutions. As that what 206 aim to be, increase Indonesian submarine forces fast and provide fleet to train more submariners. Something that Singapore also done when building their submarine fleet. Using older ex Swedish Submarines, then moving on toward present brand new 218.

For that, if they want to get Interim Submarine, in my opinion they should move with previous plan on getting 2nd hand 209-1400 available in market. Previously it is rumours MinDef in talk with Brazilian to get 2 Tupi class Submarine, then rumours they are approaching South Africa as being talked South African want to ditch their 209-1400. Perhaps they also can talk with ROK for surplus Jang Bogo class (KSS1) as ROKN move to KSS2 and KSS3. It is afterall close to present TNI-AL DSME 1400.

That will infuriates French Salesman and his followers

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Agree on Ivan Rogov, in which they then terminate that and approach ROK Daesun for cooperation in LPD design. Which then give Makasar Class. This is consider as successful ToT coop, which then many in Indonesian political and bureaucracy cycles believe any coop should used this as model.

However 206 I do believe still a relatively good example on interim solutions. As that what 206 aim to be, increase Indonesian submarine forces fast and provide fleet to train more submariners. Something that Singapore also done when building their submarine fleet. Using older ex Swedish Submarines, then moving on toward present brand new 218.

For that, if they want to get Interim Submarine, in my opinion they should move with previous plan on getting 2nd hand 209-1400 available in market. Previously it is rumours MinDef in talk with Brazilian to get 2 Tupi class Submarine, then rumours they are approaching South Africa as being talked South African want to ditch their 209-1400. Perhaps they also can talk with ROK for surplus Jang Bogo class (KSS1) as ROKN move to KSS2 and KSS3. It is afterall close to present TNI-AL DSME 1400.

That will infuriates French Salesman and his followers

Thanks for telling that, I didn't know that South-Afrika wants to get rid of their Type 209 submarines, which are all 18 years old or younger. Remarkable that they want to sell assets like their only submarines which are still quite capable and modern. Probably because of their deteriorating economy, corruption and mismanagement.
It can be a suitable procurement for TNI-AL, three pieces also like the cancelled 2nd batch of the Korean Chang Bogos. Better than the Brazilian Type 209s which are 24-29 year old, or the single Type 209/1200 from Argentina.

 

[Ananda]

didn't know that South-Afrika wants to get rid of their Type 209 submarines,

Officially they are not. However some in SA media circle talk about Rumours to mothballs even sell the submarine, to afford the four Frigates MLU. This is due more on budgetary constraint.

R1.4 billion allocated for SA Navy submarine and frigate refit - defenceWeb

National Treasury has allocated nearly one and a half billion rand to the South African Navy for the refit of one of its three Type 209 submarines and one of its four Meko A200 class frigates. Major General Thembelani Xundu, briefing Parliament’s Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military...

www.defenceweb.co.za

Only one of SA Navy’s four frigates operational; no submarines serviceable - defenceWeb

The majority of the South African Navy’s primary combat vessels are not operational, with the frigate SAS Mendi’s seaworthiness prioritised for Armed Forces Day and Exercise Mosi II. This is according to an Armscor presentation to the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans (PCDMV)...

www.defenceweb.co.za

Either way relative new 209-1400 in the Market either from SA, Turkiye or ROK. This if they are serious on getting second hand interim Submarine to fill the gap until new submarine can be available. Introducing other then 209-1400 will be more problematic for interim capabilities.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1790586473349267958

Well the Frenchie/Euro Salesman now put 'insiders' rumours that only Li-Ion submarine will be consider for future procurement. Off course he wants to scuttle any TKMS bid for AIP 214 for further Submarine order in the next term.

Personally when you already order one type of Submarine especially this type involve local production, then you should commit to that type. It is also inline with the rumours on 2nd batch order of 2. Still bit chuckles for me, on his efforts (using insiders rumours) to build public support for Li-Ion Submarine.

Either way, asside Japanese, the choice for Li-Ion Subs is quite slim picking.