Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
From an outsiders perspective the Indonesian selection process seems chaotic. I can understand the Indonesian desire to not be reliant on a single source for its military equipment. They are in a similar position to other emerging superpowers such as India and perhaps Brazil in this regard. But really the hodgepodge, mishmash of equipment they are looking at isn’t really helping with their independence.

If I were in Indonesia’s position I would be looking at establishing a sovereign defence capability. They might want to look south at what Australia is doing in this regard. What they are doing at the moment is just creating enormous logistics, training and maintenance problems.
If you read the posts in this thread of the last 9 years, you will see how chaotic it really is.

Indonesia is developing its defence and naval industries for decades, but it goes quite slowly, because of corruption, the monetary crisis in 1998 and the Reformasi and other political mismanagement. There is a lack of political and financial support and the current administration has the tendency to cancel ongoing projects without a good reason.

Well, at least there is improvement in the capabilities of our defence industry.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
From an outsiders perspective the Indonesian selection process seems chaotic
Well it is not seems chaotic, because it is completely chaotic :rolleyes:;). It is combination of :
  1. Changing political preference, which results long term planning implementation is questionable,
  2. Lack of technological partnership preferences, thus means potential changing partners,
  3. The need for image buildings by Indonesian political circles, results on confusing local MIC development path.
Take a look with South Korean and Dutch partnership on DSME 1400 and SIGMA 10514. Those two despite some drawbacks on the designs and tech transfer program implementation, actually is good initial step for Indonesian naval MIC learning curve. However combination which see them as not good enough and tech transfer program deemed not complete enough, push for different partnership. This is where (for now) Babcock and Naval Group coming.

It could be it is part of learning curve preferences, that will settle down few years time ahead, and I do see they are beginning to narrow down (hopefully) some what toward preferences program. Question is, if next administration win by opposition, will those programs be followed?

That's the problem in Indonesia so far in my perspective, too much political interferences. We see that when SBY administration being replaced by his political opponents. Results on some of his administration defense program being relook, but it's also make foreign partners question Indonesia long term commitment on any given multi years program. KFX program implementation on Indonesian side is one of example.
 

tonnyc

Well-Known Member
@hauritz That would require the branches to agree on a long term direction and the branches can't even agree internally on what they want.

The army can't agree what sort of air defence they want nor what sort of tank they want. The navy can't agree which missiles they want on which ship. Does the navy want fast missile boat or not? If yes, why is it taking so long to install them? If not, why are they still ordering some equipment for it? Does the air force want amphibious aircrafts and for what? Exactly what do they want for AEW&C?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
pr-183-komar-class-small-missile-boat-unityfreaks.jpgDSC00752.jpg

Both photos from online open sources.

Close to six decade ago TNI-AL use Soviet build Komar Class Missile Boats (12 boats) as Fast Attack Missile boats that basically rellies on hit and run tactics. Short range, fast trajectories speed, and optimise for choke points defense.

On Last November IndoDefence, PT. PAL and another local shipyard PT. Lundin (North Sea Boats), working with Kongsberg shown model of this Light Attack Craft (Kapal Serang Ringan/KSR in Indonesian), which basically shown much similarities in concept with Komar Class.


Now unlike previous PAL missile boats, like Lursen design FPB 57, or KCR 60. This KSR just like Komar six decades ago is just too small to have meaningful range for patrol duties. The concept is also have similarities with Komar with 20-25m length, 55-60 tons weight and +/- 50 knots speed.

I put this as now some 'insiders' like the Twitter Guy or other Bloggers, claim this concept already got 'significant' budget to be produce in even bigger numbers Komar before.

Personally when I see MinDef plan for shore based ASM (potentially with Russian-Indian Brahmo) and now this "Komar" base KSR concept, I do see the thinking on Choke Points defense. Question will be whether this is last line of defense or as alternative then combine Air Power and Naval Power (Frigates and Corvettes) networks.

If they really serious on building this, I do hope this is more as last line of defense, rather then the alternative routes. Just hope this is not a shorcut they choose, rather then focusing on building Combine Air and Naval network. In the era of satellite and network oriented data management, I do have serious doubt on the effectiveness of this kind of tactics.

Still with Ukrainian manage to sink Russian Cruiser with Shore Based ASM, perhaps on certain situations, this still can work.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
View attachment 50612View attachment 50613

Both photos from online open sources.

Close to six decade ago TNI-AL use Soviet build Komar Class Missile Boats (12 boats) as Fast Attack Missile boats that basically rellies on hit and run tactics. Short range, fast trajectories speed, and optimise for choke points defense.

On Last November IndoDefence, PT. PAL and another local shipyard PT. Lundin (North Sea Boats), working with Kongsberg shown model of this Light Attack Craft (Kapal Serang Ringan/KSR in Indonesian), which basically shown much similarities in concept with Komar Class.


Now unlike previous PAL missile boats, like Lursen design FPB 57, or KCR 60. This KSR just like Komar six decades ago is just too small to have meaningful range for patrol duties. The concept is also have similarities with Komar with 20-25m length, 55-60 tons weight and +/- 50 knots speed.

I put this as now some 'insiders' like the Twitter Guy or other Bloggers, claim this concept already got 'significant' budget to be produce in even bigger numbers Komar before.

Personally when I see MinDef plan for shore based ASM (potentially with Russian-Indian Brahmo) and now this "Komar" base KSR concept, I do see the thinking on Choke Points defense. Question will be whether this is last line of defense or as alternative then combine Air Power and Naval Power (Frigates and Corvettes) networks.

If they really serious on building this, I do hope this is more as last line of defense, rather then the alternative routes. Just hope this is not a shorcut they choose, rather then focusing on building Combine Air and Naval network. In the era of satellite and network oriented data management, I do have serious doubt on the effectiveness of this kind of tactics.

Still with Ukrainian manage to sink Russian Cruiser with Shore Based ASM, perhaps on certain situations, this still can work.
Thank you for sharing.
It looks like a usable design, but looking to the past i am afraid that this project will end up as 'successful' as the X3K Klewang class patrolboat and the X18 Antasena tankboat, just one of each built.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

TNI-AL Sinkex using Exocet MM-40 against decommision Troop transport. Even though the using of other SSM from China, Russia and now the talk on Roketsan Atmaca and Kongsberg NSM, the main inventory still MBDA Exocet.

Throughout the decades MBDA missiles still dominant suppliers for Indonesian Navy inventory. Indigenous SSM program, base on reverse engineering of Chinese C-705 still on going, also the talk with Roketsan. Still I do see MBDA place as dominant suppliers will stay on for sometime in future.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
1. What is this @AHelvas idiot talking about?

2. All a ship builder needs is the weight and space margin to install the 7.5 ton Sylver A-43 VLS designed by DCNS. I can’t imagine DCNS refusing to sell this VLS system to Indonesia for its Arrowhead 140, if so desired.

3. Naval Group (formerly DCNS) are keen to sell to ship builders, be it Sweden or Singapore. They just have to compete against the MBDA VL MICA system.

4. Indonesia with its lobby groups is its own worse enemy. Every planning attempt at logistics consolidation is a failure and everything is so illogical on commonality.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Indonesia with its lobby groups is its own worse enemy. Every planning attempt at logistics consolidation is a failure and everything is so illogical on commonality.
And this tweeter guy is part of that lobby groups (salesman). So there's no surprise that his tweet always part of effort to gain public opinion toward his or his company sales rep effort. Every lobby group also has manage to gain certain political factions to enhance their sales effort.

Their sales effort can be direct sales procurement from OEM, or licensing agreement between the OEM they represent with local industry. Babcock clearly not OEM he represents, thus it is not surprising he always talk trash on projects from OEM that he is not represent.

Still as part of lobby/sales group, he is an insider on Indonesian defense procurement. For me, I only see his tweet on 'rumours' on the progress of defense procurement. While on his opinions is basically full BS, especially on projects that he or his company not representing.

Ironically he is considered by some Indonesian media and defense enthusiasts as "expert". Something he is using on selling his tweets and videos channel as part of "expert" opinion, and again ironically many buy it.

Just like in his recent video, he is trashing Indian P-8I as monkey/downgrade version of US P-8A. He's doing it to imply to Indonesian publics that if Indonesia keep want the effort to get P-8, the most likely version will get is 'monkey' version just like India has.

He doesn't take fact that India choose their own version, because India want to use some of their own equipment. India choose to use their own data management instead Link 16 (as example), more likely because India want to build their own data network. Something that understandable considering India also use many Russian assets.

Still he's trashing Indian P-8I, more likely because he is representing other OEM that want to enter Indonesian market on long range maritime patrol and ISR market. So he is now selling idea that Indonesia will not get similar quality if still want to go in that direction (with Boeing P-8) . Thus again in the end he is nothing more than salesman.

Add:
Effort for consolidation and commonality is more likely being done during late part of Soekarno and Soeharto era. Not surprising as that also when both dictators command absolute authority. Thus long term planning and procurement program (not just in defense) work more coherently. While on this 'democratically' elected era, long term planning is harder to control as each political factions now live from one election cycle to next ones. So they are more thinking on short term plan and short term gain.

Prabowo and Jokowi now talk on 25 years defense investment plan, which basically similar in essence with previous SBY administration talk on their Minimum Essential Force (MEF) planing. This plan also then divided on 5 years cycles. In paper Jokowi's administration also still follow this MEF plan, but again in their own twists. Which's again as I have mentioned before in Indonesian threads, make it difficult on implementation on any long-term plan consistency.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
And this tweeter guy is part of that lobby groups (salesman). So there's no surprise that his tweet always part of effort to gain public opinion toward his or his company sales rep effort. Every lobby group also has manage to gain certain political factions to enhance their sales effort.

Their sales effort can be direct sales procurement from OEM, or licensing agreement between the OEM they represent with local industry. Babcock clearly not OEM he represents, thus it is not surprising he always talk trash on projects from OEM that he is not represent.

Still as part of lobby/sales group, he is an insider on Indonesian defense procurement. For me, I only see his tweet on 'rumours' on the progress of defense procurement. While on his opinions is basically full BS, especially on projects that he or his company not representing.

Ironically he is considered by some Indonesian media and defense enthusiasts as "expert". Something he is using on selling his tweets and videos channel as part of "expert" opinion, and again ironically many buy it.

Just like in his recent video, he is trashing Indian P-8I as monkey/downgrade version of US P-8A. He's doing it to imply to Indonesian publics that if Indonesia keep want the effort to get P-8, the most likely version will get is 'monkey' version just like India has.

He doesn't take fact that India choose their own version, because India want to use some of their own equipment. India choose to use their own data management instead Link 16 (as example), more likely because India want to build their own data network. Something that understandable considering India also use many Russian assets.

Still he's trashing Indian P-8I, more likely because he is representing other OEM that want to enter Indonesian market on long range maritime patrol and ISR market. So he is now selling idea that Indonesia will not get similar quality if still want to go in that direction (with Boeing P-8) . Thus again in the end he is nothing more than salesman.

Add:
Effort for consolidation and commonality is more likely being done during late part of Soekarno and Soeharto era. Not surprising as that also when both dictators command absolute authority. Thus long term planning and procurement program (not just in defense) work more coherently. While on this 'democratically' elected era, long term planning is harder to control as each political factions now live from one election cycle to next ones. So they are more thinking on short term plan and short term gain.

Prabowo and Jokowi now talk on 25 years defense investment plan, which basically similar in essence with previous SBY administration talk on their Minimum Essential Force (MEF) planing. This plan also then divided on 5 years cycles. In paper Jokowi's administration also still follow this MEF plan, but again in their own twists. Which's again as I have mentioned before in Indonesian threads, make it difficult on implementation on any long-term plan consistency.
As we all know he is just a salesman, trying to lobby with his own version of reality.

Even if Indonesia will get a downgraded monkey-version of the P-8A, lets call it P-8ID, it will be still usable as an MPA and there are not many alternatives for it. The ATR 72 lacks totally the range/endurance, the CN235/C295 and EMB-145 MP are slightly better. The Bombardier GlobalEye has much more range, but is only equipped with the Ferranti Seaspray 7500E for maritime tasks. Airbus and Tupolev have never made a serious attempt to create an MPA/MR/ASW version of their A320 and Tu-204 families.
The only real alternative is the Kawasaki P-1.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Even if Indonesia will get a downgraded monkey-version of the P-8A, lets call it P-8ID, it will be still usable as a MPA and there are not many alternatives for it
That's about it, there's no enough effidence that he gives asside different electronics and sensors, to say Indian P-8I is monkey version of P-8A. That's his base on taking that big potential Indonesia will also only get 'monkey' version like India got, if goes with P-8.

At this moment, I can only say he's making it up. India version is build for Indian specifications, and that's not mean it is monkey version. He can't shown enough base that the electronics and sensors that Indian choose is a downgrade versions. India has historical tendencies to choose their own set up. It is shown on their SU-30MKI that's basically also has different avionics and sensors set up then Russian SU-30MK2. However it is not in any mean shown SU-30MKI is monkey version of SU-30MK2.

That's why asside some procurement 'rumours' that he shown occasionally on his tweets, most others are BS speculations drive by his sales lobby goals. Right now he reiterate again his opinion that Indonesian Arrowhead 140 will not going to be "allowed" to have Aster. This is not first times he tweet this. I say more because he's trying to safe face on potential other OEM win in the missiles deal for PAL Arrowhead 140 program.

The only real alternative is the Kawasaki P-1.
Asside on that, you can also goes with refurbished P-3 airframes with updated sensors and electronics. If not mistaken it is also 'rumours' as part of options.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

The project of OPV 60 which is patrol version of KCR 60 begin as launch of that version happening in Batam. This is basically water down version of KCR 60 with less powerful engine result on lower speed (24-25 kt vs 28-29kt) and no SSM.

OFFSHORE-PATROL-VESSEL-60M-kkip-2.jpg

Picture from KKIP website.

Personally this kind of vessel should be in the hand of BAKAMLA/Coast Guard. For me again it is shown TNI-AL still want to hold maritime constabulary function, when this should hand over to BAKAMLA.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing.
An endurance of only 5 days, useless for the largest archipelago of the world. Are they really not capable to build ships with an endurance of two weeks? And a crew of 55 is quite large for a ship of only 60 meters long with a single 57 mm gun and 2 machine guns.
Even the smaller and much older FPB-57 patrolboats have less crew. Hopefully 55 is just the maximum amount of crew capacity.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
I see one video from TNI-AL site that shown an PC-40 (Patrol version of KCR-40) conduct patrol for 10-12 days. So I do see this OPV/PC-60 as bigger boats can hold 2 weeks patrol. Perhaps 5 days is minimum indurances.

At least now they are moving to KCR/OPV/PC-60 rather then continue with smaller KCR/PC-40. I believe they are conducting studies before that shown at least 70m Boats/Ships needed for efficient patrol on all Indonesian water, considering some have higher waves. I believe they still go with 60m mostly to get more hulls on budget allocation.

I suspect some compromise being taken with those who want larger ships then those who want more hulls.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

For me, this shown the results of Indonesian Flip Flop defense planning. Something which resulting from too much politicing. This Van Speak/Ahmad Yani Class Frigate supposedly this time around being totally replace by SIGMA 10514. However this administration because seeing SIGMA 10514 is part of previous administration (and political rival) program decided to stop only for two.

Further frigate program being delayed by incompetent MinDef from this administration first term. Results by now only two new frigate program so far (Arrowhead 140 derivative) being launch, and only currently still in early stages on manufacturing. Thus seems four of six of this class continues has to soldier on way past of their operational time.

This MRO practically the 2nd MRO being done for this class in TNI-AL operation, and 3rd MRO throughout their life time. First MRO done by end of 70's by Dutch Navy, second MRO (which supposedly their last MRO) done in the 90's by TNI-AL. Now this 3rd MRO. This is part of 41 existing TNI-AL ships (combatan and support ones) that being sloted for MRO/Upgrade.

From what I gather, previously they also supposedly going to be replaced by interim Frigates while waiting for new ones commission. Something like Mirage 2K being slot as interim fighters. However seems plan for interim Frigate being shelved, and MinDef choose to refurbish existing older fleet as this MRO done on this Frigate.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Thaon di Ravel class PPA Francesco Morisini visit Jakarta Tanjung Priok Naval Base. This coincide with Italian Navy Chief visit to his Indonesian Navy counterparts. There's rumours that as potential Indonesian MinDef will reduce the number of FREMM procurement, Leonardo/Fincantieri will offer PPA instead. Thus package of 2-3 FREMM (that's seems MoF willing to finance), can still get 4-6 PPA.

This will give Indonesian Navy on the number of hulls that previously plan, but with the budget that MoF willing to finance. Yes PPA will be less capable then FREMM, but more general purpose (GP) function for Indonesian Navy patrol forces. Arrowhead 140 derivatives that supposedly in the building in PAL (since TNI and MinDef quite silence on the official progress info), is also build more on GP config (with modular options for purpose function).

Well it is just rumours, but if that's what happens later on, shown TNI-AL and MinDef still prefer more #hulls eventough as GP configuration.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

Thaon di Ravel class PPA Francesco Morisini visit Jakarta Tanjung Priok Naval Base. This coincide with Italian Navy Chief visit to his Indonesian Navy counterparts. There's rumours that as potential Indonesian MinDef will reduce the number of FREMM procurement, Leonardo/Fincantieri will offer PPA instead. Thus package of 2-3 FREMM (that's seems MoF willing to finance), can still get 4-6 PPA.

This will give Indonesian Navy on the number of hulls that previously plan, but with the budget that MoF willing to finance. Yes PPA will be less capable then FREMM, but more general purpose (GP) function for Indonesian Navy patrol forces. Arrowhead 140 derivatives that supposedly in the building in PAL (since TNI and MinDef quite silence on the official progress info), is also build more on GP config (with modular options for purpose function).

Well it is just rumours, but if that's what happens later on, shown TNI-AL and MinDef still prefer more #hulls eventough as GP configuration.
We will see how this rumour develops, the PPA Thaon di Revel class has CODAG propulsion system, and if Indonesia will order this class, it will be undoubtly the Light version (which has only gun armament), and then probably also in a stripped FFBNW configuration.

It is actually remarkable that they didn't go for the FTI class, which is CODAD powered.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
is actually remarkable that they didn't go for the FTI class, which is CODAD powered.
Seems this is why NG offering FTI on first place and not FREMM, which explain why Frenchie bit annoyed with Italian when Leonardo cut the deal with FREMM offer. So if Leonardo then offer PPA it is not impossible NG offering FTI again.

Still NG already have export customer for FTI, while Leonardo looking for export customer for PPA. That could be deal difference. As propulsion, Leonardo claim PPA design flexibility. Thus perhaps it is not going too difficult on altering PPA propulsion to CODAD.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
FB_IMG_1690801715545.jpgFB_IMG_1690801704953.jpg



TNI-AL conducting another SINKEX this time with Chinese Missiles (C705 and C802) but also with French Missile (Exocet MM-40 Blk3). Basically those three types of SSM that now making TNI-AL inventory of anti surface missiles. 4 missiles which're 2 C705 (from KCR/FMB), 1 C802 from Van Speijk Frigate and 1 Exocet MM-40 Blk3 from SIGMA PKR Light Frigate.

The target is one of Van Speijk Frigate that's already being decommissioned. Two of Van Speijk Frigates already decom, being replace by 2 SIGMA Light Frigate. Ironically one of the missiles being fired from one of surviving Van Speijk that's also just got MRO. Talking about maintaining some of the old while discarding others. The target then finished off by AS missiles (most likely Maverick) from F-16.

There's talk of KONGSBERG NSM and ROKETSAN Atmaca being sources to replace Chinese SSM eventually. There's also talk on Indonesian Indigenous SSM (which is basically reverse engineering of Chinese C705). All of this still talk and plan, but reality on inventory is the three type SSM above.

Add:
Video on SINKEX from TNI-AL information center, but being upload by an Indonesian Bloggers in his FB.

 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

Slightly better quality video on the SINKEX (frm YouTube posted by Indonesian defense blogger), shown overall destruction of ex KRI Slamet Riyadi as target ship. Not bad for a Cold War design that need at least 4 SSM to make sure being sunk. The SINKEX video begin at 1:00.

As I post before, bit ironi that one of the launch missile come from the target sister ship. One of the results of delay on modernization pace that make some of those old frigates being held operationally, why one of them became SINKEX target.

Also a correction on the missile, seems the # still 4, but with one C705, one C802, and two Exocet MM40 Blk3.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

Slightly better quality video on the SINKEX (frm YouTube posted by Indonesian defense blogger), shown overall destruction of ex KRI Slamet Riyadi as target ship. Not bad for a Cold War design that need at least 4 SSM to make sure being sunk. The SINKEX video begin at 1:00.

As I post before, bit ironi that one of the launch missile come from the target sister ship. One of the results of delay on modernization pace that make some of those old frigates being held operationally, why one of them became SINKEX target.

Also a correction on the missile, seems the # still 4, but with one C705, one C802, and two Exocet MM40 Blk3.
I wonder if they use some cheap cameradrones for recording this video, or a helicopter/MPA-aircraft with a camera system from the '90s from 20 km away....

It seems that besides the four anti-ship missiles (Exocet MM40 Block 3, C-802, and C-705) also four free fall bombs (M117/Mk-12 General Purpose) were involved in the joint SINKEX (Sinking Exercise) held in the Java Sea last month on 31 July 2023.


Like you already said, it is very impressive that such an old fregat can withstand for so long such an amount of firepower.
It is really good that TNI-AL do this exercises.
 
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