Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group

LIMA 2023: Havelsan to supply CMS for Indonesia's new frigates

Turkey's Havelsan will equip the Indonesian Navy's new Arrowhead 140 frigates with its Advent combat management system (CMS), the company told Janes at the Langkawi...
www.janes.com

Not much new info, but reinstated info more or less. At least the suppliers still believe the project for OPV 90 and Arrowhead Base Frigate still on track.

While back in Indonesia, the so call defense market insiders aka Salesmen busied spreading rumours as unspecified info that both program are in trouble. Perhaps those Euro Salesman spreading that, because the projects suppliers are not OEM that they represent? After all spreading rumours is one of Indonesian salesmanship tactics.
 
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r0m8470

Member
It's really confusing on what's really effective as a contract - meaning things are getting built - vs what's on paper.

Arrowhead/Iver H-based frigates - I think these are effective, with PT PAL did the first steel cutting
FREMM and Maestrale - not yet effective?
Scorpene - is this effective?
Continuation of Chang-bogo - is this effective?
Mogami - not effective?

What else?

On a separate note, I noted the Navy moved 2 Fatahillah's class to the 3rd fleet. Both are essentially OPVs with no meaningful AA and ASuW capabilities with the obsolescence of MM38 anyway. However, the 2 newest and full compliment (no FFBNW) KCRs are actually assigned there as well .... ? Interesting twist.
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
r0m8470 said:
It's really confusing on what's really effective as a contract - meaning things are getting built - vs what's on paper.

Arrowhead/Iver H-based frigates - I think these are effective, with PT PAL did the first steel cutting
FREMM and Maestrale - not yet effective?
Scorpene - is this effective?
Continuation of Chang-bogo - is this effective?
Mogami - not effective?

What else?

On a separate note, I noted the Navy moved 2 Fatahillah's class to the 3rd fleet. Both are essentially OPVs with no meaningful AA and ASuW capabilities with the obsolescence of MM38 anyway. However, the 2 newest and full compliment (no FFBNW) KCRs are actually assigned there as well .... ? Interesting twist.
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Not very effective fleet building in the long term, what's the current plan? 2xSigma, 2xAH-140, 6xFREMM and 4xMogami. While you may be able to get favourable deals up front to build them, it will cost a lot more in the long run to operate them, with 4 Frigate types from 4 different countries, 4 very different designs, each unique in its own way, requiring separate Trg streams in many areas.
Same issue with the Submarines, still looking at buying 2 different designs from 2 different suppliers.
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Indonesian Defense Minister Prabowo accepting NG CEO. Indicating their submarine project with PAL getting more traction. Well personally I just hope some finalisation on this Submarine procurement saga.


While his deputy in Abeking-Rasmussen to officially accept two MCMV.

r0m8470 said:
really confusing on what's really effective as a contract - meaning things are getting built - vs what's on paper.
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Yes, seems hopefully it will shown what end result one way or another before election time. Submarine seems will go to NG. There's enough sign that Indonesian MinDef and TNI quite convince with Frenchie and NG commitment to give Indonesia the Brazilian models. We can say also Brazilian and Indian models.

DSME seems going to involve only on effort to rectify whatever problem on those 3 DSME 1400 209. DSME seems still try to get that 2nd batch with rumours that they will offer even their latest KSS3 model. However seems NG now got commanding leads not only against DSME but also TKMS.

Mind you this is just base on rumours and unofficial leads. However official media news like those from MinDef FB pages, indicating that rumours might be true.

Redlands18 said:
While you may be able to get favourable deals up front to build them, it will cost a lot more in the long run to operate them, with 4 Frigate types from 4 different countries, 4 very different designs, each unique in its own way, requiring separate Trg streams in many areas.
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The previous plan seems work on two models, one Damen light frigates (Sigma 10514) and full size frigates from Odense (now Arrowhead 140). The talk on FREMM and Mogami are coming latter on seems due to the need for more Frigates sooner base on Geopolitical situations.

Indonesia long term planning logics always being toss apart by political whims. Just above pictures from my previous posts on Type 52D that coming from nowhere being push by one large political factions.

Looking on Submarine, seems in the end it will narrowing to one choices hopefully. However doesn't means some political compromise need, could be going to push some awkward choices in the end. There's going to be few awkward assets, among the main back bone assets.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Ananda said:

LIMA 2023: Havelsan to supply CMS for Indonesia's new frigates

Turkey's Havelsan will equip the Indonesian Navy's new Arrowhead 140 frigates with its Advent combat management system (CMS), the company told Janes at the Langkawi...
www.janes.com

Not much new info, but reinstated info more or less. At least the suppliers still believe the project for OPV 90 and Arrowhead Base Frigate still on track.

While back in Indonesia, the so call defense market insiders aka Salesmen busied spreading rumours as unspecified info that both program are in trouble. Perhaps those Euro Salesman spreading that, because the projects suppliers are not OEM that they represent? After all spreading rumours is one of Indonesian salesmanship tactics.
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|"The weapons fit that has been proposed for Indonesian Arrowhead 140 requirements includes 12-cell vertical launching system (VLS) for medium-range surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), a separate 12-cell VLS for long-range SAMs, a 16-cell VLS for surface-to-surface missiles, two 76 mm naval guns, and a 35 mm close-in weapon system (CIWS)."|
I can't find information about the sensors and other electronic systems, but the weapons fit is really impressive for Indonesian standard. It is more similar to the original Iver Huitfeldt design than to the Type 31. It does not have as much VLS-cells as the Iver Huitfeldts, but still more than the Type 31 and most FREMM variants.

What is actually the latest official news about the dimensions of the design? Following the orginal design with a length of around 138-139 meters or the Indonesian wish of a longer design with a length of 140 m+ ?
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Few days ago it is been circulate in Indonesian defense enthusiasts forums and online links of alleged presentation from PAL. The drawing of PAL arrowhead 140 base frigate seems not much different then original Babcock design.

In one of their media expose, they say they want 140m, thus bit stretch on original Arrowhead 140 design, but not as stretch on their 143m design they're shown in last year Indodefence.


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The info that Havelsan will supply the CMS and Army project with Excalibur-Roketsan on area defense SAM, also give speculation that they will choose Turkiye MIDLAS VLS.


Video on MIDLAS VLS trial. At this moment seems Frenchie and Turkiye will got most shares of Indonesian Defense partners projects. Both of them as I mention from time to time consider as Politically acceptable choices for all political factions.
 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
Drass, a Italian mini-sub manufacturer reportedly signed with Republik Orp on marketing the DG550 mini-submarine. I think this is with PT Palindo

aresdifesa.it

Successi di vendita per Drass Galeazzi in Indonesia

Drass Galeazzi stipula un Memorandum of Understunding con l'indonesiana PT Republik Palindo per i midget DS 550 e Autonomous Attack Submarine
aresdifesa.it aresdifesa.it

www.liputan6.com

Indonesia Mulai Produksi Kapal Selam Penyerang dan Tanpa Awak Bareng Italia, Intip Kecanggihannya

Perusahaan pertahanan asal Italia, Drass Galeazzi Srl menanda tangani MoU (Memorandum of Understanding) dengan perusahaan galangan kapal PT. Republik Palindo, anak usaha dari Republikorp asal Batam, Indonesia untuk Joint Production produksi kapal selam DG 550 kelas Midget dan Autonomous Attack...
www.liputan6.com www.liputan6.com
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
FB_IMG_1685798169591.jpg

From Kris FB.



Above is from TNI-AL official FB on the fire that broke out this afternoon on KRI Teluk Hading, one of ex GDR LST. Despite all the building of Indigenous LST which are bigger, they're so far only able to replace ex USN LST and schedule to replace ex South Korean LST. So far those ex GDR LST seems going to be maintain, at least 75% from original 14.

TNI-AL so far operate 22 LST which basically divide between new indigenous LST and ex GDR LST. Those LST part of Military Sea Lift command that essential to move Military Assets and troops across archipelago. Just like that KRI Teluk Hading (Hading Bay, all TNI-AL LST name after a Bay), which in process on transport a battalion of Army (TNI-AD) troops. Lucky all the troops and most crews able to be transfer to nearby ships that come to rescue.

Seems according to TNI-AL FB, currently one of their tug boat try to bring this LST toward nearest harbor. Usually any accident like this will increase the call to replace older ships. Sometimes especially in ellection time like now, it is just another political jargon.

That's why personally I don't support the call for more frigates in the class of FREMM or Mogami. Just like F-15EX, that's kinda of assets will stretch TNI-AL operational budget to thin and can come in the costs of operational readiness of overall fleet. SIGMA 10514 and Arrowhead 140 should be enough for TNI-AL conditions. Unless next administration want to triple or even quadruple TNI-AL operational budgets.
 
Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
koxinga said:
These are likely for the pair of 90m OPVs

www.navalnews.com

SEA to provide KRAITSENSE ASW System for a South-Asian Navy's OPV Program - Naval News

UK-based anti-submarine warfare (ASW) solutions provider SEA has been awarded a contract to supply two of its innovative ASW systems, KraitSense, to a South-East Asian Navy for a new offshore patrol vessel (OPV) programme.
www.navalnews.com www.navalnews.com
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Thank you for sharing.
Ive never heard about "SEA", and i dont know about the quality and performance of their stuff. Hopefully they provide good stuff and deliver a good after sale service
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
Sandhi Yudha said:
Thank you for sharing.
Ive never heard about "SEA", and i dont know about the quality and performance of their stuff. Hopefully they provide good stuff and deliver a good after sale service
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It's one of a group of six small specialist firms that got together as Cohort plc. One of them (ELAC Sonar, based in Kiel) has a history going back to 1926. Looking at the group website, I see announcements of contracts from the UK Ministry of Defence, the Portuguese army, Leonardo (for the Italian navy's U212 submarines), Philippines navy - & a lot of sales to unnamed customers in Europe & Asia. A collection of niche businesses operating under one umbrella, by the look of it, & some of the named customers & repeat contracts suggest they probably do know their stuff.

Their HQ is 10 km from here, but I didn't know that until a few minutes ago. I worked on the same site from 2003 to 2007. I don't think they were there then.

Cohort plc - The independent technology group (LSE: CHRT)

Arlington Business Park, Theale
 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
Arji said:
Max Defense is speculating that those are for Philippine's HHI OPV they ordered instead...
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Well, his post appears to be amended to consider Indonesia, presumbly other people pointed out that 2 units align to Indonesia's OPV program rather than the 6 units of Philippines OPV program, and SEA's agreement with BTI Defense of Indonesia.

Improving Sonar Detection Capabilities on Warships, BTI Defence Collaborates with SEA - News & Events - BTI Defence - Detail Blog

bti-defence.co.id bti-defence.co.id

PT BTI Indo Tekno, together with SEA (Cohort PLC Company) from United Kingdom, has introduced a new SEA towed-sonar technology with a very capable and sophisticated tracking system, with the ability to be fitted in a small tonnage ship, such as PC-40 class patrol ship.
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Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
FB_IMG_1686217498423.jpg

This is example of how politics playing around on TNI program. If they just follow the initial plan done by previous SBY administration, those all six Van Speijks should be replace by Sigma 10514, by now. Instead only two being replace.

Doesn't know how further progress of Arrowhead 140 after this present batch of two or even plan of FREMM that now rumours being reduce from six for only Two. Could be they are being procured on batches. However with Indonesian track records that being changes due to political reasons. It is difficult to expect Indonesian procurement to be commited for long term plan.

Note:
Despite their five decades age, those Van Speijk still have handsome design line (at least by my amateur eyes). Even by comparing side by side with much modern Sigma 10514 that should be their replacement.
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Ananda said:
View attachment 50586

This is example of how politics playing around on TNI program. If they just follow the initial plan done by previous SBY administration, those all six Van Speijks should be replace by Sigma 10514, by now. Instead only two being replace.

Doesn't know how further progress of Arrowhead 140 after this present batch of two or even plan of FREMM that now rumours being reduce from six for only Two. Could be they are being procured on batches. However with Indonesian track records that being changes due to political reasons. It is difficult to expect Indonesian procurement to be commited for long term plan.

Note:
Despite their five decades age, those Van Speijk still have handsome design line (at least by my amateur eyes). Even by comparing side by side with much modern Sigma 10514 that should be their replacement.
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Have always wondered how the Ahmad Yani class have performed after having their Steam Turbines replaced by Diesels in the period 2003-08.
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
No official information available, however some Indonesian defense bloggers claim got unofficial info from PAL as shipyard that done repowering and testing. The max speed reduce from 28-30knts to 24-26knts. However the operation cruise speed still maintain at 18knts.

However for TNI-AL the most important thing is the reduce on fuel consumption after repowering from Steam Turbine to Diesels. Also the operational readiness is improving and better maintenance costs. That's why TNI-AL love their diesels.
 
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hauritz

Well-Known Member
From an outsiders perspective the Indonesian selection process seems chaotic. I can understand the Indonesian desire to not be reliant on a single source for its military equipment. They are in a similar position to other emerging superpowers such as India and perhaps Brazil in this regard. But really the hodgepodge, mishmash of equipment they are looking at isn’t really helping with their independence.

If I were in Indonesia’s position I would be looking at establishing a sovereign defence capability. They might want to look south at what Australia is doing in this regard. What they are doing at the moment is just creating enormous logistics, training and maintenance problems.
 
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