Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Supe]

After reading this (quite interesting) thread on Indonesian aspirations for a 'green water navy' , it left me wondering about the capabilities of the Indonesian Navy as it stands now and the direction it wants to take. World Navies today website lists quite a few assets, particularly of amphibious ships. It looks like they have a decent amphibious capability but the combatant fleet appears quite dated.

Does anyone expect there to be regional friction due to this announcement? Will it be seen as a natural process of a modernisation programme to make the TNI Navy more relevant or as Indonesia wanting to become more of a player in the region?

 

[gf0012-aust]

After reading this (quite interesting) thread on Indonesian aspirations for a 'green water navy' , it left me wondering about the capabilities of the Indonesian Navy as it stands now and the direction it wants to take. World Navies today website lists quite a few assets, particularly of amphibious ships. It looks like they have a decent amphibious capability but the combatant fleet appears quite dated.

Does anyone expect there to be regional friction due to this announcement? Will it be seen as a natural process of a modernisation programme to make the TNI Navy more relevant or as Indonesia wanting to become more of a player in the region?

The IN has actually asked the RAN for assistance in this. We're being asked to assess what capability they need and to provide training.

Amazing change of heart when you consider that 6 years ago we were a bees dick away from going to war against each other

 

[Aussie Digger]

This will be quite a feat considering Indonesia is finding it almost impossible to find the funds to arm it's 4 Sukhoi's with ANY weapons, acquire sufficient funding or aid to get it's 8 odd Hercules flying and generally modernise any aspect of it's defence forces...

The RAN might advise that all Indonesian warships should be painted Brilliant white with a VERY large round red circle, painted right in the middle of them

It might make things a bit easier for them (the RAN that is) one day...

 

[Supe]

The IN has actually asked the RAN for assistance in this. We're being asked to assess what capability they need and to provide training.

Yes, I spotted that point in the 'other' forum. It's odd that after all these years since they achieved independence, they still require 'outside' assistance to identify solutions to their policy objectives. I would have thought it would be something they could easily do by themselves.

OT: Are the Subs the indonesians employ, operational?

 

[gf0012-aust]

This will be quite a feat considering Indonesia is finding it almost impossible to find the funds to arm it's 4 Sukhoi's with ANY weapons, acquire sufficient funding or aid to get it's 8 odd Hercules flying and generally modernise any aspect of it's defence forces...

The main issue is that if they want a green water navy to deal with piracy, then they're going to have to start court martialling some of their officers.

They know it, but they're trying to work out how to resolve it.

 

[gf0012-aust]

OT: Are the Subs the indonesians employ, operational?

barely. no funds available. short on flying time, short on sea time and no money for weapons fits for their airforce.

 

[pasukangeraktjepat]

barely. no funds available. short on flying time, short on sea time and no money for weapons fits for their airforce.

Sadly what you say is quite correct Gf, our defence minister say that Indonesian AF only has 40% of its assets ready to fly.The Sukhois only use in training right now.And now we try to take back our F-5 in south korea, the tiger was sent there to maintanance, but after it maintained US Govt told the Korean to not give it back for our AF, perhaps because the military ban.
The army still work hard to get the Mi-16 helos, there was a financing problem to get that helo, so they start to talk agremeent with the Russian again.
Latest news about the navy, two of the Sigma-class corvette will be built in Surabaya,Indonesia ; and the other will be ready to operate circa 2006-2007.About the aging subs, some news said one of the two is still operate, but i can't confirm that news.We stil wait the subs from Daewoo for its replacement.Also we will get another new LPD, beside KRI Tanjung Dalpele.
The keyword of Indonesian army problem, beside the human-right problem, is the lack of money.So many problem in Indonesia nowaday and we must use the money to deal with that.
And last, maybe it is quite out of context, back when Indonesia still struggle for its independence from dutch in 1945-1950, i think australian has backed us.Some australian labour make a demonstration to show their support for our independence, i read this in article some years ago.So when i remember the australian support for East Timor independence, i can't blame the australian for that.They just make their choice, anyway i hope we can start a new relationship.

 

[pasukangeraktjepat]

Does anyone expect there to be regional friction due to this announcement? Will it be seen as a natural process of a modernisation programme to make the TNI Navy more relevant or as Indonesia wanting to become more of a player in the region?

Well i don't think we want to become player like what you said.Back in 60's went the late Mr.Soekarno still in charge, Indonesia maybe can considered as one of the player in Southeast Asia, we have a fleet of Mig-21,Tupolev bomber; an armada of one cruiser, 6-7 destroyer ad several frigates; and a large number of soldier.But it only bring our people in poverty.
We only want to guard our area, so our people can enjoy what become our rights.
Edited : i can't find a story from Indonesian KRI's commander but i find a quite interesting story from Indonesian pilot.Read it in http://www.angkasa-online.com/10/06/english/english1.htm

 

[gf0012-aust]

anyway i hope we can start a new relationship.

I think we're on the way to having a far more normal relationship. Certainly the relationship between the two navies is quite strong.

 

[pasukangeraktjepat]

The IN has actually asked the RAN for assistance in this. We're being asked to assess what capability they need and to provide training.

Amazing change of heart when you consider that 6 years ago we were a bees dick away from going to war against each other

Gf, can you tell me the advise that has been given for our navy from your navy?
Is it about what kind of ship that we should possess or about navy tactic ?
Some months ago, i read an interview with Admiral (ret) Bernard Sondakh, an ex TNI AL chief, he said that in future Indonesian Navy ship will consist of 4 subs, 8 frigat/corvette with guided missile, 8 fast-attack craft with rocket, 2 fast-attack craft with torpedo and 4 mine-sweeper ship.All of that ships will be the main strike force of the navy.For routine patrol, navy will made 42 patrol ships.
He said hopefully in 2013 the navy can posses this as minimum requirements.

 

[pasukangeraktjepat]

The RAN might advise that all Indonesian warships should be painted Brilliant white with a VERY large round red circle, painted right in the middle of them

Even nowadays you can see the KRI's quite easily, our ships was painted with tiger-style paint, a combine color of blue,white and black.

 

[Paxter]

Gf, can you tell me the advise that has been given for our navy from your navy?
Is it about what kind of ship that we should possess or about navy tactic ?
Some months ago, i read an interview with Admiral (ret) Bernard Sondakh, an ex TNI AL chief, he said that in future Indonesian Navy ship will consist of 4 subs, 8 frigat/corvette with guided missile, 8 fast-attack craft with rocket, 2 fast-attack craft with torpedo and 4 mine-sweeper ship.All of that ships will be the main strike force of the navy.For routine patrol, navy will made 42 patrol ships.
He said hopefully in 2013 the navy can posses this as minimum requirements.

thats a really small navy considering they have over 5000 islands to secure... funny... 2 months ago they want to pick a fight with malaysia....

 

[gf0012-aust]

Gf, can you tell me the advise that has been given for our navy from your navy?

No, all I know is that there are discussions under way between senior ranks about forward planning and development issues.

Is it about what kind of ship that we should possess or about navy tactic ?

Ships and basic procedural issues. Indonesias problems lie in the fact that she has an enormous amount of small islands and islets that need policing. That is the province of smaller faster suitably armed vessels. If you are going to control piracy, then you need the capacity to harass. after all, if a prirate decides to take on a smaller naval vessel, they can guarantee that they will invite larger destruction for being impertinent.

Some months ago, i read an interview with Admiral (ret) Bernard Sondakh, an ex TNI AL chief, he said that in future Indonesian Navy ship will consist of 4 subs, 8 frigat/corvette with guided missile, 8 fast-attack craft with rocket, 2 fast-attack craft with torpedo and 4 mine-sweeper ship.All of that ships will be the main strike force of the navy.For routine patrol, navy will made 42 patrol ships.
He said hopefully in 2013 the navy can posses this as minimum requirements.

I think he's being incredibly optimistic.

 

[pasukangeraktjepat]

I think he's being incredibly optimistic.

I don't see it being optimistic Gf, i heard that it was a very very minimum force that we must have, first the navy want to have around 190 warships, to secure indonesian ocean.But our goverment can't afford, so they ask for around 171 warships, still our govt can't afford.So after a long debate that was left for our navy.
Another reason of why our navy was so small, is because the defence vision of our leader.When Soeharto became a president, Indonesian Armed Forces was concentrating on the Army.He made an Army so strong, in the term of number and equipment.Our defence vision on that moment is 'pertahanan rakyat semesta (people-total defence)', it was a guerilla-based defence system.Our govt.argue that we can gain our independence from dutch with that, so we can defend against any agressor with that again.It was so naive , but that 'old-school' mindset still grow until now.
Only after Mr Abdurrahman Wahid became president, we give our attention back to our navy.

 

[Supe]

I wouldn't be surprised if the IN was looking at obtaining an LHD. If they aren't perhaps they should. It would be a tremendous asset to have at their disposal. IN would be able to operate Helicopters and fast attack craft from an LHD which could be used as a centre of operations against piracy. It could also be deployed in areas affected by natural disasters as well as minor power projection as heavy lift for the army. Such an LHD could be outfitted as a Navy flagship with all the comms gear necessary to co-ordinate the duties it has been directed to undertake. As a flagship it could co-ordinate efforts with other foreign navies (Malaysia/Singapore) to interdict suspected criminal traffic. The flow on benefits of closer ties in the region would reward an IN acquistion of such a ship tenfold.

I don't how cheap you could go with such an LHD though. I don't think the ships Australia are considering would be within the limits of an Indonesian defence budget but perhaps there are smaller LHD designs floating around that are cheaper but suitable for the tasks mentioned previously. It might be time for the IN to think big.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I don't see it being optimistic Gf, i heard that it was a very very minimum force that we must have, first the navy want to have around 190 warships, to secure indonesian ocean.But our goverment can't afford, so they ask for around 171 warships, still our govt can't afford.So after a long debate that was left for our navy.

my comment relates to optimism in light of the existing and available budget. you need money to do those things - and you've already agreed with some of us on a paucity of monies to cover off even existing essential capabilities.

 

[Pendekar]

Indonesian military have a considerable level of "rogueness". I think some of u have heard about an Indonesian F-5s intercepted and harassed an Australian transport flight. of course, the first thing australia did is point a finger at the indonesian top military brass. but later it was find out that the intercept was authorized by a regional commander, who i guess, eager to show off his troops.
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thats a really small navy considering they have over 5000 islands to secure... funny... 2 months ago they want to pick a fight with malaysia....

in reality it's more like an attempt by the government to divert people attentions from internal problems. it happen closely after indonesian government decide to stop subsidizing fuel, which obviously trigger a riot.

 

[Supe]

I think some of u have heard about an Indonesian F-5s intercepted and harassed an Australian transport flight.

I've not heard of such an incident. When and where did it take place? Could you provide a link?

 

[pasukangeraktjepat]

This is the link for the incident from Indonesian view : http://www.angkasa-online.com/10/08/english/english5.htm .AussieDigger and Gf has discussed this in other thread.By the way I found an article written by Soviet submarine commander who brought our first submarine to Indonesia, you can read it in : http://www.neswa.org.au/Library/Articles/aid_to_friends.htm .And a nice site about Indonesian navy with picture in http://www.cvl.iis.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~kazmi/KRI.html, unfortunately this site only in Indonesian language.

 

[Supe]

Thanks for that. Excellent pics of the Indonesian Navy. Are the Sigma corvettes replacing older ships or are they augmenting the fleet?

http://www.cvl.iis.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~kazmi/images/sigma01.jpg