India's Top Gun's head for the U.S.

Indus

New Member
Asia Times News June 24, 2004

India's top guns head for the US

NEW DELHI - A 200-strong contingent of personnel of the Indian Air Force (IAF) is at the moment headed for Alaska, United States, in what is going to be the first-ever joint Indo-US air exercise on American soil. Amid all the backslapping and camaraderie that has become a feature of Indo-US military exercises that are a regular occurrence in India now, there is a much broader game plan. While the IAF explores uncharted areas, the occasion is also a milestone in longer-term US intentions to reach out to potential military allies outside Europe and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), and in the current context, possible deployment of troops to Iraq.

The facts and firsts
Top gun Indian pilots, young flight lieutenants, airmen and assorted crew took off for their 19,750 kilometer journey to Alaska from air force base Ambala, in the state of Haryana on Tuesday morning in six Jaguar strike aircraft, two IL-76s transport aircraft and two IL-78 tankers. They are to participate in the annual multinational air exercises code-named Operation Cooperative Cope Thunder that take place in Alaska with allies such as the United Kingdom, Germany, Japan, Canada and South Korea. This is the first time that India has been invited to a US air exercise, making it the first-ever foray of IAF planes outside Indian territory for such an event.

It is also the farthest the IAF has ever flown; and the first time the giant IL-78s tankers are being exposed in the West. The air convoy will make the passage in stages, stopping in Qatar, Egypt, Italy, and Portugal, before making the trans-Atlantic flight with a layover in the Azores Islands. The group will enter Canada on July 2 and reach Alaska on July 7 for exercises that are slated to begin on July 15.

In a statement an IAF spokesperson said, "The IAF has never been on such a journey and we just want to be careful getting our planes and equipment across safely. This is a big honor and a big debut for us." The Alaska trip comes in the wake of high praise that has been showered by the US Air Force (USAF) on the IAF, which participated in joint exercises in Gwalior this February. The IAF threw open its top-of-the-line fighter planes, including the Sukhois and Mirages, at the USAF in Gwalior and Jaguars that are of relatively older vintage.

While the Indian government has sought to downplay any larger message in the Alaska exercise, observers here see the first-ever invitation by the USAF as an attempt to expand its sphere of influence, given the current imbroglio over Iraq. While there is no gainsaying the fact that the exchanges will go a long way in informing India about latest technologies, as well as a first-hand knowledge of F-16 fighter planes that form the main arsenal of Pakistan, analysts also warn that India must guard against a new American strategy to take NATO beyond the confines of Europe, where ties between Washington and some of its allies are not on the best of terms over Iraq.

One comment reads: "Expanding NATO with new members outside Europe, while diluting its 'North Atlantic' charter, is evidently aimed at enhancing American influence at the expense of its European allies. As it is, the US has succeeded in getting NATO into Afghanistan, the first time the 55-[member] organization has taken up duties outside Europe. Next step: Iraq. This is where India could come in handy. Major NATO countries of Europe are opposed to its deployment in Iraq, but Japan has already chipped in with troops. An expanded NATO could deploy more easily in Iraq. There is also talk of bringing in several central Asian and Arab countries into the NATO fold."

The situation in Iraq is in flux with an interim Iraqi government being formed under United Nations auspices, though there is still a way to go before any figment of normalcy returns in the country. That India is under continued pressure from the US to supply troops is borne out by the fact that Foreign Minister Natwar Singh, immediately after a meeting with US Secretary of State Collin Powell earlier this month, said that India would re-look and discuss the issue in the changed circumstance of a UN resolution. Singh's statement caused a furor among political parties in India. The very next day he issued another statement that a re-think in no way changes India's current stance.

Another comment says, "For India, the larger issues are tricky. It does not want to play itself into blocs. At the same time, engagement with alliances as far apart as NATO and ASEAN [Association of Southeast Asian Nations] is inviting, and flattering to its geostrategic ambitions. In the past, New Delhi has been scathing about NATO's expanding role outside Europe. It wasn't too long back that it accused the organization of an increasing tendency to "usurp the power and function of the UN Security Council", and said its propensity to extend its areas of operation "is a source of concern to all countries, big and small".

Indeed, officials here say that India is more than likely to bide its time and study the situation till the November elections are over in the US and any decision concerning the two countries will strictly remain on pragmatic grounds of cost and benefit. However, observers also aver that given the superpower status of the US, it would be useful for India to weigh its decisions properly, given that the US is seeking to draw India into a wider bloc of nations.

At the same time, India will have to be careful not to get caught in the tricky "good versus evil" definition that is driving the army of neo-conservatives that crowd President George W Bush's inner circle. Geostrategic advantages apart, the political cost of failure on this front could be immense. As the thinking here is, will a Madrid-style terror attack, with its subsequent political fallout, happen in the US? Till then, India will be grabbing any opportunity that comes its way, such as military exercises, where no body bags are involved.

LINK: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FF24Df04.html
 

Londo Molari

New Member
History lesson:

India tests nukes and then Pakistan tests nukes in return.

As a result, Pakistan get slapped with sanctions, aircraft are withheld, and no spares for existing aircraft.

While India is offered the F-16, and their pilots get to train with the U.S. on U.S. soil.

Very nice. Very fair.... and then we have imbiciles who still want American equipment, and dream of the day the U.S. will sell us F-16s.
 

mysterious

New Member
I'd say those people are just trying their luck to see if they can get what they might in a one-off thing or watever 'cuz they (by now) know a lot more of US allegiance to its allies (which is hardly ever stable except for a few exceptions) than they did back in the 60s or the 70s or the 80s. ;)

Admin: Do NOT abuse people, you have been a member of this board long enough to know what is acceptable
 

Indus

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
Londo Molari said:
History lesson:

India tests nukes and then Pakistan tests nukes in return.

As a result, Pakistan get slapped with sanctions, aircraft are withheld, and no spares for existing aircraft.

While India is offered the F-16, and their pilots get to train with the U.S. on U.S. soil.

Very nice. Very fair.... and then we have imbiciles who still want American equipment, and dream of the day the U.S. will sell us F-16s.

Well Londo, I would say that if anything Pak has gotten the better end of the deal from U.S.

Billions of dollars in aid, relief of debt, NMNA status, etc.
 

Londo Molari

New Member
Billions of dollars in aid? Where are you getting this from?
And relief of which debt?
Also, NMNA Status is worth as much as the paper its written on.
 

lalith prasad

Banned Member
well he's got a point .by the way iaf will be excercising with singapore air force f-16s at gwalior this years and india and russia have jointly decided to invite china to participate in the pakfa project .and also lca pv1 and 2 will be weapons tested this year. well well interesting news isnt it.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Well for starters IAF's training exercise has nothing to do against Pakistan. US has and will stop the Indians attacking Pakistan, atleast as long as US needs Pak against Al-Queda.

Billions of dollars in aid? Where are you getting this from?
And relief of which debt?
You don't read newspapers do you?
 

Londo Molari

New Member
Execises are not against Pakistan? In its entire history, who has India used its air force against? Only Pakistan... who else are they going to engage in combat with? England?

U.S. doesn't need Pakistan for anything... the "Al-Queda threat" form the Afghanistan region is no more a threat to the U.S. Now Pakistan is just suffering repurcussions from militants, because they backed up the U.S. against the Taliban.

The U.S. has never stopped India from attacking Pakistan.

In the war of 72, What did the U.S. do? They did not intervene, the war started, and PAF lost 30% of its aircaft! The U.S. did nothing! China was the one who saved our ass by giving us 200 F-6s, out of nowhere to return us to full strength.

Its convenient to say "You don't read newspapers do you?". Maybe you can enlighten me...
 

srirangan

Banned Member
No it's not against Pakistan. India is not a Pakistan centric country. Hint: China. It's really not that hard to see this.

In the war of 72, What did the U.S. do?
Why go back to '72? 2002 it was US that stopped the Indian build up.

U.S. doesn't need Pakistan for anything...
US needs Pak to capture OBL. And dismantle the remaining Taliban. The Al-Queda is very much still a threat to US interests too.

Its convenient to say "You don't read newspapers do you?". Maybe you can enlighten me...
Yu're kiddin me right. Here nare links:
http://www.jubileeplus.org/worldnews/asia/us_assures_pakistan_debt_relief.htm
http://www.awitness.org/news/november_2001/pakistan_debt_relief.html
http://usembassy.state.gov/islamabad/wwwh02082304.html
http://www.dawn.com/2002/02/23/top7.htm
 

lalith prasad

Banned Member
in 1972 usa didnt get involved because russia was ready to intervene on india's side the then russian admiral asured india of russia's full support in the event of us intervention .a russian nuke sub even trailed the us aircraft carrier throughout that war..nd besides by the time us carrier got into posistion the indian carrier vikrant was already in posistion and the bombing of dhaka was taking place .the us were convinced that it was just a matter of days before dhaka fell and they didnt want to accelerate a regional war into a global war.
 

XEROX

New Member
am i right to assume indian Pilots got 300hrs flying experience while US pilots got nearer 250hrs of flying during 2003
 

audenm

New Member
I think the Americans are just fooling the Indian's with these exercise's. They real intention is to check the latest weaponery the eastern nations(China, Russia) are having. First they come to India(remember cope india over gwalior sky) with their older versions of F-15's and now they want to check the refuelling technology.of India's latest arsenal(Russian and Chinese both use the same tech).

Also recent articles surfacing in the media abot the so Called defeat of American jets by Indian Su-30 Aircraft can be concedered as a gimmick by the American Air force To argue that they require the more numbers of the latest american jets ( F-35 if i am not mistake). everything is a Business for American's.
 

XEROX

New Member
To be honest I think it was a platform to push the case for the F/A-22 for the yanks; however I fully believe that the Indian pilots are quite good and are not that far behind their Americans counterparts
 

XEROX

New Member
i think the indian pilots are in the top 4 or 5 in terms of quality and training.

my top 3
1-USAF
2-RAF
3-french
 

srirangan

Banned Member
am i right to assume indian Pilots got 300hrs flying experience while US pilots got nearer 250hrs of flying during 2003
Not an assumption but a fact. This has been documented by various sources so it's safe to accept it.
 

adsH

New Member
Israel is, in no way better then us, UK is alot better i can't imagine israel winning a conflict against us, you know Siri you underestimate RAF!! RAF is not all that bad. in-fact if you read up on RAF you might start likeing it :lol. Israel being no 1 is joke the uSNAVY alone posses enough ari power to wipe out any potential aggressor in a conflict, and i mean any.

RAF can conduct an operation around the world at a short notice it has the capability economically and Militarily, it also posses one of the most proficient professional Airforce personnel in the world.
 
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