Indian Nuclear & Missile Development, News & Discussions

[kams]

Radiosilence,

Only point I was trying to make was Indian SLBM is not aimed at Pakistan, as it's current Railmobile/roadmobile inventory assures it second strike capability. But let's drop it.

Sabre,

MAD is relevent b/w superpoers but may not be in India/Pakistan context. Stability/instability paradox, Instability/instability logic, Brinkmanship logic etc are some of the other theories which have been proposed to explain Kargil, Op.Parakram etc. All these theories do not adequately explain the events.

Lets leave it at that.

 

[Firehorse]

The India-Pakistan sutuation is similar to USSR vs. PRC of the 1960s -late 1980s. China had far less nukes than FSU, and couldn't mount a devastating 2nd strike. That's why the concept of "people's war" was alive for so long, until their 1979 Vietnam invasion lessons. Today, and in the years to come,India is better off staying non-aligned, as it has done since 1947. IMO, having SSBN fleet will ensure her status with regional and world powers.

 

[SABRE]

I had warned that dragging Pakistan (& now also China) into Indian thread will end up getting this thread locked for 7 days minimum. It creates a huge pile of mess to clean in the end.

This is the last warning.

 

[indian bull]

Indian Ballistic Missile Defence

guys have a look at this video of AAD which shows real time interception and hit to kill ability, it also shows logo of DOD(Dept of Defence):

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBfhWy8UDWE&feature=related"]YouTube - India's Indigenous Multilayer AntiBallistic Missiles-PAD,AAD[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHmbvscPx0A&feature=related"]YouTube - AAD[/ame]

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

A missile is normally based on three sections. From top to bottom : Warhead, Fuel, Engine.

Even in the Youtube graphical cartoon posted by Indian Bull, the interceptor missile didnt hit the approaching missile head on. Because, It is impossible for an interceptor missile to hit head on the approaching missile travelling in excess of thousands of feet per second. If successfull, it will hit either the fuel section or the motor section. The war head will still fall and do its damage.

What if the approaching missile is targetted towards a military installation and has to over fly a civilian area. Will India try to intercept it and risk the war-head falling on her civilian population ? Who will be blamed for the civilian deaths ? :shudder

I am saying this because I was at Jeddah, Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War. Despite a few successfull interceptions by the Patriots, Iraqi scuds were still doing their damage and falling on Riyadh and etc.

 

[Todjaeger]

A missile is normally based on three sections. From top to bottom : Warhead, Fuel, Engine.

Even in the Youtube graphical cartoon posted by Indian Bull, the interceptor missile didnt hit the approaching missile head on. Because, It is impossible for an interceptor missile to hit head on the approaching missile travelling in excess of thousands of feet per second. If successfull, it will hit either the fuel section or the motor section. The war head will still fall and do its damage.

What if the approaching missile is targetted towards a military installation and has to over fly a civilian area. Will India try to intercept it and risk the war-head falling on her civilian population ? Who will be blamed for the civilian deaths ? :shudder

I am saying this because I was at Jeddah, Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War. Despite a few successfull interceptions by the Patriots, Iraqi scuds were still doing their damage and falling on Riyadh and etc.

Um... No. This is logically, wrong. I do not know the specifics of Indian BMD/ABM SAM systems, however, it is quite possible for an interceptor missile to impact a target missile and destroy it. An example of a missile designed to do so is here. As for being impossible to intercept and hit the warhead, that would depend on the size of the warhead relative to the overall size of the incoming missile. If the warhead comprises perhaps 10% of the surface area missile, then roughly 10% of all successful intercepts would be from warhead impacts. With the correct type of interceptor warhead and fuse, the missile does not need to be hit in the warhead to destroy it, although yes, there will virtually always be some debris that would fall. That is unavoidable.

Regarding the use of Patriot SAM batteries to intercept Iraqi Scuds during Gulf War I... AFAIK the news announcements differed significantly from the actual operational details. That Patriot system (PAC-2) was rushed into service to counter the threat the Scuds posed. The missile systems themselves were repeatedly receiving software updates at the rate of roughly one a week. IIRC the original Patriot SAM system was actually intended to be a medium to long-ranged SAM system to engage Soviet strategic bombers, and that part of the problem was how the fuzes operated. From memory, what would occur was that at the Patriot missile would be closing to intercept an incoming Scud, the Patriot would detonate to create a shrapnel cloud to bring down the target (the Scud). The problem here IIRC was that the fuze was keyed to intercept a subsonic bomber, not a supersonic ballistic missile. By the time the shrapnel cloud would have expanded, the Scud had already passed through the area where it was expanding. More information can be found here on the Patriot.

It is for this reason that the current BMD missiles are generally going with a kinetic or hit-to-kill system, where the interceptor warhead does not detonate until impact with the target, in order to ensure delivery of sufficient energy to destroy the target.

-Cheers

-Cheers

 

[indian bull]

Well AA i can under stand your pain man but take it seriously it will be a never ending pain for your kind. The BMD system is not yet ready, but it has been tested 2-3 time untill now with a success. Now if you cann't see the the thermal video of clearcut interception you can just open your eyes and can see the logo of Dept of Defence(DOD) at the bottom with your specs on. The AAD has both the proximity and hit to kill fuses.

I can advise you to come out of 1991 era and don't compare PAC-2 or even PAC-3 with this system of PAD and AAD. PAC has a endo-atmospheric capability only with a max ceiling of 15 km above earth, PAD has been succesfuly tested with interception at a height of 50km above earth i.e. exoatmospherically. So no comparisons with PAC-2 or PAC-3.AAD has a max ceiling of 30 km almost double than PAC-3, so no comparisons between two.

whether an interceptor hit or detonates in proximity it will destroy the nuclear warhead configuration and destination of the enemy missile and with an exo-atmospheric interception the debris of a RV or nuclear warhead will be burnt and converted to vapours when it strike with the atmosphere, it can only spread radioactivity in the air but the nuclear explosion will not occur. So the main purpose is to destroy the nuclear warhead's structure and make it ineffective. With the endo-atmospheric interception again the purpose is same to destroy the warhead configuration, no body is scared of the debris of the conventional warheads and the purpose here is to null the nuclear warhead not small conventional warheads.

Now don't post your hopeless and pathetic arguments because nobody is going to present some of these live interceptions at your home to prove their designs and effectiveness.

 

[Chrom]

Regarding the use of Patriot SAM batteries to intercept Iraqi Scuds during Gulf War I... AFAIK the news announcements differed significantly from the actual operational details. That Patriot system (PAC-2) was rushed into service to counter the threat the Scuds posed. The missile systems themselves were repeatedly receiving software updates at the rate of roughly one a week. IIRC the original Patriot SAM system was actually intended to be a medium to long-ranged SAM system to engage Soviet strategic bombers, and that part of the problem was how the fuzes operated.
-Cheers

-Cheers

This is plain wrong, if not intentional lie. USA MOD couldnt be THAT stupid and give THAT idiotic requirements for SAM. What i mean here?

1. NO USSR strategic bomber EVER operated with shortrange weapon. At least, not in last 50 years. Trying to defend something with medium range SAMs against bomber which only weapon can strike 1000 miles away... lol.

2. Every other USSR assets was supersonic. Of course, Su-25/Mi-24 was not - but PAC-2/PAC-3 obviously are not designed to engage these.

3. SCUD was fast. But not much faster than Mig-25.

4. Either way you see - Patriot was failure. I'm sure, now it got much better.

 

[Todjaeger]

This is plain wrong, if not intentional lie. USA MOD couldnt be THAT stupid and give THAT idiotic requirements for SAM. What i mean here?

1. NO USSR strategic bomber EVER operated with shortrange weapon. At least, not in last 50 years. Trying to defend something with medium range SAMs against bomber which only weapon can strike 1000 miles away... lol.

2. Every other USSR assets was supersonic. Of course, Su-25/Mi-24 was not - but PAC-2/PAC-3 obviously are not designed to engage these.

3. SCUD was fast. But not much faster than Mig-25.

4. Either way you see - Patriot was failure. I'm sure, now it got much better.

Unfortunately, I cannot remember where I read or saw that the Patriot system originated from a SAM that was to protect vs. Soviet bomber aircraft, or that the initial problems during Gulf War I had to do with the proximity fuses being keyed for a slower moving target.

However, the US has made and used a subsonic SAM system for Area Air Defence, namely the RIM-66 Standard SM-1. While it has by now been withdrawn from US service, there are other nations which still use it and it is rated with a high subsonic speed here. From memory, Janes Fighting Ships lists the speed as 0.9 Mach. The expectation was that the Standard would be able to be used to intercept incoming Soviet aircraft and missiles, or be used vs. surface targets and as a result had an impact fuze.

The Patriot program itself originally started on or before 1964, and the missile was not named Patriot until 1976. The first missile was delivered in 1981, and the first battalion equipped with Patriots in Europe became operational on-site in 1985. The first test of intercept of a ballistic missile (Lance missile sim of an SS-21) was done in 1986, after the Patriot had entered operational service.

For more information on the Patriot missile development history, click here. If there are other questions or comments regard the Patriot SAM or its history, I would suggest moving the discussion to one of the Patriot missile threads.

-Cheers

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

Um... No. This is logically, wrong. I do not know the specifics of Indian BMD/ABM SAM systems, however, it is quite possible for an interceptor missile to impact a target missile and destroy it. An example of a missile designed to do so is here. As for being impossible to intercept and hit the warhead, that would depend on the size of the warhead relative to the overall size of the incoming missile. If the warhead comprises perhaps 10% of the surface area missile, then roughly 10% of all successful intercepts would be from warhead impacts. With the correct type of interceptor warhead and fuse, the missile does not need to be hit in the warhead to destroy it, although yes, there will virtually always be some debris that would fall. That is unavoidable.

It is for this reason that the current BMD missiles are generally going with a kinetic or hit-to-kill system, where the interceptor warhead does not detonate until impact with the target, in order to ensure delivery of sufficient energy to destroy the target.

-Cheers

-Cheers

I guess that it all depends on the successull head on interception of the incoming missile. Anything short and the warhead will fall off and hit the civilian population instead of the intended military installation.

It will be the first time in this history after WW2 where a defending military contributed towards the death of her own civilians who she was suppose to protect at the first place and also give a lot of fame to the already famous name of DODO.

 

[indian bull]

PAD Missile capability enhanced to kill targets at altitude of 75 - 90km
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/03/26/stories/2008032651671000.htm
“The earlier PAD Missile, tested in November 2006, which had a 600 km range has now been enhanced to intercept a target fired from a 1,500 km to 2,000 km. It had a kill altitude of 47 km, which has now been enhanced to between 75 and 90 km,” Mr Adalat Ali, Deputy Project Director of the Air Defence Project, said.

The DRDO wants to develop an interceptor for a missile fired from a 5,000 km range which would require a kill altitude of 250 km by 2011-12.

 

[indian bull]

AA your ifs and buts have no definite answer, our BMD and other missile prog are not lead by pathetic and pessimistic people like you.

Your sick obsessive and pathetic qustions need not be answered as so many countries in the world including US, Israel are trying to raise an effective BMD system based on interception not for a hell.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

AA your ifs and buts have no definite answer, our BMD and other missile prog are not lead by pathetic and pessimistic people like you.

Your sick obsessive and pathetic qustions need not be answered as so many countries in the world including US, Israel are trying to raise an effective BMD system based on interception not for a hell.

You sure represent the place of your location well through the colorfull language that you use.

Offcourse they are not led by people like me and this is exactly the same reason why there is a HUGE question mark. :

 

[kams]

PAD Missile capability enhanced to kill targets at altitude of 75 - 90km
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/03/26/stories/2008032651671000.htm
“The earlier PAD Missile, tested in November 2006, which had a 600 km range has now been enhanced to intercept a target fired from a 1,500 km to 2,000 km. It had a kill altitude of 47 km, which has now been enhanced to between 75 and 90 km,” Mr Adalat Ali, Deputy Project Director of the Air Defence Project, said.

The DRDO wants to develop an interceptor for a missile fired from a 5,000 km range which would require a kill altitude of 250 km by 2011-12.

Hehe that should ensure that intercepted war head doesn't fall on Indian civilians. Not bad for DODO eh? nfloorl:

 

[bobby007]

Missile defense is made for the reason that if some insane person chose to attack with nuclear missile without authority same may be intercepted by India............. so that counter strike will not result in deaths of millions, due to miscalculation.

It is also important that missile defense is made so that if tomorrow there is instability or some one try to use missiles against India unauthorisingly, Then the same can be intercepted and destroyed...........

after 9/11 world has become dangerous place

It is purely a defensive measure..........

 

[indian bull]

You sure represent the place of your location well through the colorfull language that you use.

Offcourse they are not led by people like me and this is exactly the same reason why there is a HUGE question mark. :

Well it will always be a question mark for you and nobody will be able to answer your foolish questions to end your trauma. i am leaving one more ? for you regarding Indian missile development involving your nightmare DODO:

http://warfare.ru/?catid=262&linkid=2175

KS-172

purpose: super long range
design bureau: Novator
development: early 1997
1st Air tests: in 1993
length: 7.4 m
diameter: 0.51
wingspan: 0.75
missile wt: 750 kg
warhead wt: 50 kg
envelope: 3 to 30000 m
Range: about 400 km
Guidance: Inertial + active radarhoming
Carried by: Mig-31M; SU-35/37/S-37

KS -172

- Joint Venture between India's DRDO and Russias NPO Novator.

SpeciFications :

- It is an ultra Long Range AAM with a Development Range of 400KMs To Target AEW/AWAC Type High Value Aircrafts.

- Sole Carrier in the Indian AF will be the Su-30MKI

Features ( Dimensions) :

- 1.4 Meter long Rocket Booster

- Weight 748Kgs

- Core Diameter 0.40 Meter , Total Lenght 6.01 Meters , Span .61 Meters

- Launched by a Solid-propellant Tandem Rocket Booster

- The KS 172 will attack its Targets with an adaptive high explosive ( HE) fragmentation warhead.

Guidance

- Secure Data-Linked Based inertial Navigation System for MidCourse Guidance ( This would probably be done by AWACS or the 2-3 MKIs Working in Tandem with their Mini AWACS Capability)

- Active Radar Homing for its Terminal Phase.

-The missile will be used against air targets flying at altitudes from 3m to 30km with speeds up to 4,000km/h and manoeuvring at up to 12g.

INDO-RUSSO CO-OPERATION

DRDO and NPO will jointly Develop:

- An Active Homing Radar Seeker with a Wide Lock-On Range Which is able to recieve targeting data from the launch AC.

- Design a combined Gas/AeroDynamic Control system with 3d TVC . Provides High Manoeuvrability irrespective of launch Conditions and allows for missle launch with AC in super Manoeuvrability flight mode.

- Create and Adaptive Rapid Reaction Autopilot Which Optimises with Missile Stabilization and control Parameters within the firing range.

- Development of Special Interaction Logic btween the KS-172 Explosive Fuse and Guidance system Which ( In addition to structural and config features) gurantees absolute immunity of the Warhead detonation system


And yeah regarding my colorfull language, i watch a lot of Pakistani Lahori Punjabi stage shows of Mastana and co and i.e. why i speak like this.:nutkick

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

I hope you get it delivered on time and as per specification since infamous DODO is involved.

What will be the " actual " contribution of DODO ?

I doubt the Russians will buy it. Brahmos being one such example because as per the Russian constitution, only 100% made in Russia can be inducted into Russian Armed Forces and not join ventures.

 

[Pro'forma]

I doubt the Russians will buy it. Brahmos being one such example because as per the Russian constitution, only 100% made in Russia can be inducted into Russian Armed Forces and not join ventures.[/QUOTE]


Are you saying Russion is self-sufficient not to out-buy goods from India ?
No industrial help outside. Not thinking India or Russia are interested
anymore isolation, keep going economically global, more or less.

 

[niteshkjain]

Agni III test

Link
http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes..._testfired_this_month/articleshow/2918418.cms

New Delhi: India plans to test-fire its most ambitious strategic missile Agni-III, which can hit high-value targets deep inside China with a strike range of 3,500-km, towards April-end.

Sources said the test-firing is likely to take place in the "window" between April 20 to 30, but the exact launch date will depend on technical, environmental and other parameters. This will be the third test of the rail-mobile Agni-III — which can carry a 1.5 tonne nuclear payload — from the integrated test range on Wheeler Island off the coast of Orissa.

While the first test of the two-stage, solid-fuelled Agni-III in July 2006 had flopped, with scientists losing control of the missile over the Bay of Bengal barely 65 seconds into its flight, the second test in April 2007 had proved successful during its entire flight path of 15 minutes.

"If the third test is successful, then the ballistic missile will require just one or two more tests before it can go for limited series production and training trials by the armed forces. Its operational deployment should be possible by 2010-2011," said a source.

Till now, the armed forces have inducted the 700-km Agni-I and 2,000-km-plus Agni-II missiles, which are primarily meant for Pakistan, apart from different versions of the short-range Prithvi missile.

The government, however, is yet to give defence scientists the green signal for an advanced version of Agni-III, with a miniaturised third-stage to increase the strike distance to around 5,000-km.

"If the political directive comes, we can test this Agni-III-plus missile in a year or so," the source said.

A missile is termed an ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile) if it can travel distances beyond 5,500-km. ICBMs have largely remained the preserve of the five UNSC permanent members, with US and Russia leading the pack since the 1960s. China, too, has made huge strides by developing new-generation solid-fuelled road-mobile ICBMs like DF-31 (7,250-km-plus) and DF-31A (11,270-km).

With China even having SLBMs (submarine-launched ballistic missiles) like JL-1 and the under-development JL-2 (8,000-km range), every major city in India is within the strike envelope of Chinese missiles.

But despite the stark asymmetry with China in terms of its huge missile and nuclear arsenal, Agni-III makes it possible to bring even Beijing and Shanghai within India's strike range. The 16.7-metre high Agni-III is a totally new system, with a massive lift-off weight of 48 tonnes, unlike the much lighter Agni-I (12 tonnes) and Agni-II (17 tonnes) missiles.

Scientists say Agni-III has many "firsts" to its credit like the "flex nozzle controls of rocket motor during the powered phase" and the "specially designed composite propellant with high specific impulse for the rocket".

The mobile land-based Agni missiles constitute a crucial part of India's nuclear deterrent posture. Though India has a declared "no-first use" policy, the nuclear doctrine holds that nuclear retaliation to a first strike by an adversary "will be massive and designed to inflict unacceptable damage".

 

[niteshkjain]

A tibit on Agni IV

Link
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...range_Agni-IV_missile/articleshow/2618413.cms

New Delgi: In what could provide India greater strategic depth, the government on Wednesday announced its plan to develop 6,000-km range Agni-IV missile which will be capable of destroying targets deep in China.

The announcement is seen as a move to send out strong signals to countries in the neighbourhood. Any missile with a range of more than 5,000 km stationed in south or central India would be out of the range of most capable missiles in Pakistan's arsenal while it would be able to hit targets in eastern and northern China with cities like Beijing and Shanghai in its ambit.

The 3,500-km Agni-III, which was successfully test-fired in April, will not be able to reach cities like Beijing unless it is deployed in eastern states near the Chinese border.

Top scientist V K Saraswat of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) said the Agni-IV project was in the design stage and its trials and development could take a few years.

Saraswat said the DRDO would carry out three more tests of Agni-III over the next year with the second trial of the missile slated by June. The 3,500-km range missile, which has the capacity to carry a nuclear payload of upto 1.5 tonnes, is likely to be inducted into the forces by 2009 after at least three successful tests.

The DRDO scientist said India would have a complete ballistic missile defence (BMD) system in three years — ready and deployed. The system will have interceptor missiles that can hit targets 50-km above the atmosphere and supersonic interceptors that can eliminate endo-atmospheric targets 15-km within the atmosphere.

Believed to be superior to America's Patriot, the BMD system has been in development for the last eight years. As part of the programme, the Prithvi air defence missile was tested in November 2006 while advanced air defence interceptor was tested this month.

The development of 6,000-km Agni-IV also indicates that the country has shelved plans to develop Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles which would have hit far away targets.

There had been speculations of India developing an ICBM named Surya with a range of more than 10,000-km. However, in light of the ongoing negotiations on Indo-US nuclear deal, it is quite possible that India may not like to annoy US.
SO it means that India stopped the development?