Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions

[Bhartiya sainik]

After potential stealthy SAM hunter, AMCA has potential to engage naval & other surface targets also from stand-off distance.
If we compare some present weapons like AGM-158A JASSM, JSM/NSM, Storm-Shadow/SCALP-EG, Taurus KEPD-350, SOM-J, etc then they're still bigger than IWB, but they can be scaled down.
Below is example of JASSM & JSM with their original dimension compared to 4.2m long IWB:



But their adjusted size variants are being integrated in F-35. Similar weapons can be developed for AMCA too.

 

[Ananda]

Put more Aero India news in here because later one become more specific Indian AF.


Virupaksha radar developed replacing current radar in Su-30MKI.



Uttam AESA radar for LCA Tejas Mk1a. This upgrade version of basic Tejas Mk1 is showing more weapons set but still also late from previous schedules.

x.com

x.com

The X account of this Vayu also shown 1:1 Model of AMCA, and not first time this model has been shown in Aerospace Exhibition. Well it is still model while KAI KF-21 and TAI KAAN already working prototype stage.

Below just shown photo of Tejas Mk1a, which my take should be in front line Indian AF squadron soon. Well soon in Indian plan can be next year or next five years.

 

[Ananda]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-02-13/trump-offers-f-35-jet-to-india-in-push-for-more-defense-deals

Trump officially offering F35 to India. Thus the presence of F35 vs Su-57 in Aero India is real sales campaign. Perhaps why Rosoboron offering Joint Production of Su-57 as seems at this point unlikely US will offer Joint production to non F35 program partner nation like India.

Still with Trump, any offer as long as profitable enough for US can happen. Bit different stance Trump has with India, it is more soften stance in my opinion to coerce India opening the market.

 

[T.C.P]

They kicked Turkey out for having S-400s, but India's S-400s are ok??

 

[Ananda]

F-35 window opens again for Turkey | eKathimerini.com

A report from the US Congressional Research Service has raised hopes in Ankara for a possible return to the F-35 program.

www.ekathimerini.com

There're signs Turkiye path to F35 might be reopen. US afterall going to reward Turkiye to their efforts on getting rid of Assad family from Syria.

Trump can change US standing on F35. Less then 2 decades after F16 first fly, US then open more market for F16 outside Euro and Asia main allies. Perhaps he believes it is time too for more F35 market.

 

[swerve]

They kicked Turkey out for having S-400s, but India's S-400s are ok??

India isn't in NATO. It doesn't have access to any of NATO's command structure. And India is much bigger than Turkey, & has bought a lot (most, for many years) of its weapons from Russia/the USSR, & until recently, nothing at all from the USA. Getting India to buy US weapons could be seen as a change in political alignment. Also, it's Trump. He isn't interested in & probably doesn't understand security. For him, everything is about "deals", & personal relationships.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

IWB versions of ARMs (Anti Radiation Missiles):
Kh-58UShKE, 650 Kg, 4.2-4.8m long, 380-400 mm diameter, 149 Kg warhead, 250 Km range, Mach 3.6
AGM-88G AARGM-ER, 467 Kg, 13'4/4.06m long, 292mm diameter, 68 Kg warhead, 300 Km range, Mach 2.9
But Rudram-1 cannot fit in AMCA'a IWB.
Rudram-1, 600 Kg, 18'/5.5m long, 340+/-mm diameter, 55 Kg warhead, 150-200 Km range, Mach 2
Rudram-2 & 3 are going to be even bigger.
If DoD makes IWB version of Rudram, it will make AMCA a dangerous SAM hunter.
There were Ramjet version missiles tested earlier but AARGM-ER uses modified solid fuel rocket motor.

View attachment 52202

Continuing the chain of posts for weapons in AMCA's IWB which is officially quoted 4.2m X 2.2m,
After observing the designs of all BVR-AAMs made globally, and intention of F-35 & J-35 to increase their IWB capacity to 6 AAMs, I had shown by diagrams that only 4 big-fin Astr-1/2 AAMs can fit in IWB but,
6 staggered Astr-2 short-fin AAMs (like AIM-120-D in F-22),
or 6 modified Astr-3 SFDR,
or 8 folding-fin Astr-2 AAMs can fit in (like Chinese PL-15).

I took the CAD of Astr-2 big-fin by artist "Akela freedom" & edited in Paint to match short-fin version made by artist "Kuntal Biswas" which is also identical to AIM-120-D. So the forward fixed fin has been shortened & shifted forward & rear fin leading edge more swept back, that's all, simple quick edit.



Now we can see the comparison more clear & precise, 4 & 6 big-fin AAMs vs 6 short-fin AAMs in the outine of official dimension of IWB. Unfortunately an updated CAD is not released yet by any artist or DoD.



I did this few weeks back but I waited for Aero-India, hoping they would officially increase the IWB capacity & showcase, but didn't happen. But this is not an up-hill task & can be done easily till IOC jet.



There is no separator wall in the IWB. 1 door panel slightly overlaps on the panel of other side door, means both doors have to open full to drop any weapon, exposing full IWB. I hope this gets corrected in IOC jet.

 

[koxinga]

India isn't in NATO. It doesn't have access to any of NATO's command structure. And India is much bigger than Turkey, & has bought a lot (most, for many years) of its weapons from Russia/the USSR, & until recently, nothing at all from the USA. Getting India to buy US weapons could be seen as a change in political alignment. Also, it's Trump. He isn't interested in & probably doesn't understand security. For him, everything is about "deals", & personal relationships.

Turning India away from Russia has significant value for US's Indo Pac strategy, which seems to be Trump's fixation.

As for Turkiye, the situation has changed since they were kicked out of the F-35 program, namely Assad's Syria is out of the picture and Iranian proxy / Hezabollah is cripped. They / Turkiye, with their fight against PKK and influence in north Syria/Iran might benefit from it.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

There is an indication by IN about 5gen TEDBF, means complete stealth.
Current TEDBF design could be scrapped or heavily modified.



So this is different from the earlier linear roadmap which IMO is contributing problem rather than parallel, independent projects.




We have our RAMs & RAS now, we need geometric structure.
It's good that IN understand now that Naval jets won't get threat concession by enemy SAMs, AAMs, jets.
The era of 5gen is said to begin with B-2 & F-117 revealed in 1988, then YF-22/23 revealed in 1990. They were developed in 1980s & initiated in 1970s. So we are 30-40 years behind that way.

But we are 15 years down the line with AMCA & many common components with MWF, TEDBF. There are 3 options now -
- tweak AMCA like F-35 A & C models.
- tweak current TEDBF design. The MWF can act as TD like X-35 & final Naval TEDBF can be stealthy like F-35C, although inflated to 2-engine jet.
- cleansheet AHCA with stronger engines for a good airframe TWR to take-off & carry sufficient minimum custom weapons.
Our engine JV shoud cater to this, meanwhile we should arrange interim engine for prototype.



Also, a panic has been created about humidity, salinity, higher CAPEX & OPEX of naval jets, etc as if it is a solid barrier in way of tech advancement. It sounds like 4.5gen is the end of line & pinnacle of Naval jet tech & no future version of RAM & RAS can protect the jets in affordable cost. On land/sea, in space, deep under water, if something needs to be done, will be done. So let's not fuel this point which goes against stealth naval jet rather than being constructive & progressive.

The next carrier should have EMALS which should be sanctioned a.s.a.p.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

A collage of AMCA's CAD 2D front view projections from various artists, in different resolutions, some resized.
If anybody has more 2D front views, diagram, sketch, etc, please share.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

Continuing the chain of posts for weapons in AMCA's IWB which is officially quoted 4.2m X 2.2m,
After observing the designs of all BVR-AAMs made globally, and intention of F-35 & J-35 to increase their IWB capacity to 6 AAMs, I had shown by diagrams that only 4 big-fin Astr-1/2 AAMs can fit in IWB but,
6 staggered Astr-2 short-fin AAMs (like AIM-120-D in F-22),
or 6 modified Astr-3 SFDR,
or 8 folding-fin Astr-2 AAMs can fit in (like Chinese PL-15).

I took the CAD of Astr-2 big-fin by artist "Akela freedom" & edited in Paint to match short-fin version made by artist "Kuntal Biswas" which is also identical to AIM-120-D. So the forward fixed fin has been shortened & shifted forward & rear fin leading edge more swept back, that's all, simple quick edit.

View attachment 52300

Now we can see the comparison more clear & precise, 4 & 6 big-fin AAMs vs 6 short-fin AAMs in the outine of official dimension of IWB. Unfortunately an updated CAD is not released yet by any artist or DoD.

View attachment 52301

I did this few weeks back but I waited for Aero-India, hoping they would officially increase the IWB capacity & showcase, but didn't happen. But this is not an up-hill task & can be done easily till IOC jet.

View attachment 52302

There is no separator wall in the IWB. 1 door panel slightly overlaps on the panel of other side door, means both doors have to open full to drop any weapon, exposing full IWB. I hope this gets corrected in IOC jet.

So far we have seen multiple CADs & static models with slight differences.
Neither ADA nor the 3D artists release basic schematic diagrams, cross sections, configurations, etc. The ones available so far are low resolution & inadequate.



It is difficult to confirm how the inducted jet will look like & its capabilities.
So taking the most convincing CAD front view & superimposing the IWB dimension of 2.2m width & 0.75m depth, along with BVR-AAMs from TEDBF CAD, it seems 6x Astr-2 short-fin version with 178mm body diameter would fit in IWB easily with or w/o staggering.
SWB is also possible.
With 1.5 ton IWB capacity, 6x BVR-AAMs + 2 CCMs = 6x154 + 2x88 = 1,100 Kg, 1.1/(12+6.5+1.1)=5.6% of STOW.
Wet T/STOW ratio = 2x98 KN / 9.8 / (12+6.5+1.1) = 1.02
With 50% fuel used & firing 4 BVR-AAMs, with 2 CCMs & 2 BVR-AAMs left, wet TWR = 2x98 KN / 9.8 / {12+3.25+(2x154 + 2x88)/1000} = 1.27

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

With this lease contract, Airbus has got a new potential customer for the A330MRTT.
Indian Air Force to lease A330 MRTT from France

|"The wet lease is expected to be finalized during the 2025–2026 financial year. The IAF remains committed to its long-term plan of acquiring six A330MRTT aircraft."|
So if the Indian Air Force is satisfied with the A330MRTT, they will at least order 6 new ones.



The first 56 helicopters are for the airforce, the others are for the army.

India Orders 156 Light Combat Helicopters

India Orders 156 Light Combat Helicopters On 28 March 2025, the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) signed two contracts with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the supply of 156...

scramble.nl

 

[John Fedup]

With this lease contract, Airbus has got a new potential customer for the A330MRTT.
Indian Air Force to lease A330 MRTT from France

|"The wet lease is expected to be finalized during the 2025–2026 financial year. The IAF remains committed to its long-term plan of acquiring six A330MRTT aircraft."|
So if the Indian Air Force is satisfied with the A330MRTT, they will at least order 6 new ones.



The first 56 helicopters are for the airforce, the others are for the army.

India Orders 156 Light Combat Helicopters

India Orders 156 Light Combat Helicopters On 28 March 2025, the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) signed two contracts with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the supply of 156...

scramble.nl

Realistically why would India consider the only other option given the horrid KC-46 program mis-steps? A330MRTT is a safer bet with faster delivery likely and zero political sinkholes from IOTUS.

 

[Ananda]

Tejas MkII Twin-Engine Concept: Could it Replace MRFA Requirement ? – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

I don't know why some in India still bother with this Tejas Mk2 concept program. For me it is wasting resources as:

1. It will not give any edge with current Rafale already in Indian inventory or others candidates that now bidding for MRFA program,
2. HAL still not deliver all other Tejas Mk1 and already late for Tejas Mk1a. How far longer it will gw late for this Tejas Mk2 ?
3. Resources that better use to improve Tejas Mk1a, build assembly and localisation for foreign design MRFA (potentially more Rafale), and focus all the rest of Resources to AMCA. India already very late to catch up with China for 5th gen let alone 6th gen fighter development.

 

[Ananda]

India Set to Pursue G2G Deal for 110 Rafale Jets: Dassault to Take Full Control of DRAL – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

If India pursue this G2G deal with France for Dasault directly control and own manufacturing line subsidiary in India for 110-114 Rafale under MRFA program. Then for me it is also reflect India administration including their MinDef and AF lack of confidence with HAL.

Not only HAL now still behind on Tejas Mk1, but also Tejas Mk1a. How they can be given confidence to deliver Tejas Mk2 ? Perhaps that's seems going on with India Administration if they go with Dasault for MRFA. For Dasault this is 2nd chances to get deal more than the collapse MRCA. With already 62 Rafale deal in hand (36 AF and 26 Navy), it will give them 172-176 Rafale.

I just don't see the need for Tejas Mk2 if Rafale got this MRFA deal. It will not give India a fighter that have advantage over Rafale. Better focus to AMCA after completion of Tejas Mk1a.

 

[John Fedup]

India Set to Pursue G2G Deal for 110 Rafale Jets: Dassault to Take Full Control of DRAL – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

If India pursue this G2G deal with France for Dasault directly control and own manufacturing line subsidiary in India for 110-114 Rafale under MRFA program. Then for me it is also reflect India administration including their MinDef and AF lack of confidence with HAL.

Not only HAL now still behind on Tejas Mk1, but also Tejas Mk1a. How they can be given confidence to deliver Tejas Mk2 ? Perhaps that's seems going on with India Administration if they go with Dasault for MRFA. For Dasault this is 2nd chances to get deal more than the collapse MRCA. With already 62 Rafale deal in hand (36 AF and 26 Navy), it will give them 172-176 Rafale.

I just don't see the need for Tejas Mk2 if Rafale got this MRFA deal. It will not give India a fighter that have advantage over Rafale. Better focus to AMCA after completion of Tejas Mk1a.

Perhaps HAL should hire Boeing lobbyists. They must be pretty good as after numerous mis-steps wrt performance, delivery, and cost Boeing picked up the NGAD fighter.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

India Set to Pursue G2G Deal for 110 Rafale Jets: Dassault to Take Full Control of DRAL – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

If India pursue this G2G deal with France for Dasault directly control and own manufacturing line subsidiary in India for 110-114 Rafale under MRFA program. Then for me it is also reflect India administration including their MinDef and AF lack of confidence with HAL.

Not only HAL now still behind on Tejas Mk1, but also Tejas Mk1a. How they can be given confidence to deliver Tejas Mk2 ? Perhaps that's seems going on with India Administration if they go with Dasault for MRFA. For Dasault this is 2nd chances to get deal more than the collapse MRCA. With already 62 Rafale deal in hand (36 AF and 26 Navy), it will give them 172-176 Rafale.

I just don't see the need for Tejas Mk2 if Rafale got this MRFA deal. It will not give India a fighter that have advantage over Rafale. Better focus to AMCA after completion of Tejas Mk1a.

Not just Tejas MK2, any brand new design to be 4gen doesn't make sense anymore. Geometric Planform shaping since 1990 is 35 years old now, a basic thing. Also, DRDO has made RAS & RAM, which further counters making inflated Tejas MK2.
IN has indicated 5gen TEDBF, so old TEDBF would be scrapped. Now ADA can tweak either old TEDBF into stealth one, or AMCA into N-AMCA.
Those people who give example of new F-15EX, F-16 bl-72, etc forget that USA has global market of incapable dependent nations. And its own new F-15/16 will be just gap fillers, broomers, moppers, not the tip of spear which will be NGAD with UCAVs followed by MLUed F-22 & F-35.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

So far we have seen multiple CADs & static models with slight differences.
Neither ADA nor the 3D artists release basic schematic diagrams, cross sections, configurations, etc. The ones available so far are low resolution & inadequate.

View attachment 52454

It is difficult to confirm how the inducted jet will look like & its capabilities.
So taking the most convincing CAD front view & superimposing the IWB dimension of 2.2m width & 0.75m depth, along with BVR-AAMs from TEDBF CAD, it seems 6x Astr-2 short-fin version with 178mm body diameter would fit in IWB easily with or w/o staggering.
SWB is also possible.
With 1.5 ton IWB capacity, 6x BVR-AAMs + 2 CCMs = 6x154 + 2x88 = 1,100 Kg, 1.1/(12+6.5+1.1)=5.6% of STOW.
Wet T/STOW ratio = 2x98 KN / 9.8 / (12+6.5+1.1) = 1.02
With 50% fuel used & firing 4 BVR-AAMs, with 2 CCMs & 2 BVR-AAMs left, wet TWR = 2x98 KN / 9.8 / {12+3.25+(2x154 + 2x88)/1000} = 1.27

View attachment 52455

AMCA width 36'6" / length 57'9" / empty weight 12 tons / Internal fuel 6.5 tons.
F-18E/F width 44'8" / length 60'1" / empty weight 14.5 tons / Internal fuel 6.7 tons.
After seeing skinny 4gen F-18 SH with same 2x F414 engines & enjoying versatility of high loadout including EW pods, i decided to push AMCA's design potential as per its dimensions.

5gen design brings AAMs very close inside IWB in staggered order. The fins of AAMs were clipped.
6gen focuses on more capacity of everything & AMCA is being pitched as 5.5gen, so capacity should be increased IMO.

Bcoz AAMs already don't have 100% PK (Probability of Kill) & DEW-CIWS or DECM (Directed Energy Counter Measure), so the next step is to pack more AAMs in same space.
NOTE- After shooting BVR-AAMs the tactic is not to merge for dogfight like in movies, videogames, but make U-turn & continue to stayout of enemy's AAM's NEZ till all BVR-AAMs are depleted.

The PL-15 might be 1st medium range AAM with folding fin.



But with AMCA's 0.75m IWB depth, 135 degrees of folding is not required, just 45 degrees up/down would suffice. The launcher would punch out the AAMs straight, so the folded fins would be aerodynamically in line with separation trajectory, would take less time to unfold & start flying the AAM.
Astr AAM dia. is 178mm.
In the 2,200mm wide IWB, 2x4 or even 2x5 AAMs might fit tightly.
If the folding can be done within 180mm width then 5x180=900mm would be needed for 5 AAMs, leaving 200/6= 33mm gap b/w the AAMs & with IWB side walls.
A scaled notional diagram of 3/4/5 AAMs looks like following:



With 10x BVR-AAMs + 4 CCMs = 10x154 + 4x88 = 1,892 Kg, 1.892/(12+6.5+1.892)=9.3% of STOW (earlier 1.1 tons was 5.6%).
Wet T/STOW ratio = 2x98 KN / 9.8 / (12+6.5+1.892) = 0.98 (earlier 1.02)
With 50% fuel used & firing 6 BVR-AAMs, with 2 CCMs & 4 BVR-AAMs left, wet TWR = 2x98 KN / 9.8 / (12+3.25+0.792) = 1.24 (earlier 1.27)

Now comparing this new potential with F-18 looks like following:



It looks like may be AMCA airframe volume can be expanded some more.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

I did the 10+4 concept with folding fin version of Astr-2 with regular solid fuel rocket motor.
I had shown earlier in Dec'2024 about Astr-3 SFDR too.

> current design of Astr-3 SFDR is making it difficult to fit more than 2x in each IWB due to its long Ramjet intakes.



> if intakes are modified near fins, then it can aid in staggering 3x AAMs easily.



> with folding fins, 3x is possible in each side IWB w/o staggering.
200mm dia. + 2x50mm intake width = 300mm for each AAM.
In IWB width of 1,100mm, the AAMs would take 3x300mm = 900mm giving 200mm/4=50mm gaps.



I think artist Kuntal Biswas didn't give front view of SFDR, atleast i don't have it, so i took that of Meteor AAM by Akela-Freedom for notional representation.