I had thought that the SH gained some points in it's favor when India signed the F414 deal. For my part, I can't narrow it down to any one factor as it was a comprehensive evaluation process but I wonder if Boeing had been able to demo a F414EPE-powered jet if it could have made a difference.
Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions
- Thread starter Twinblade
- Start date
I had thought that the SH gained some points in it's favor when India signed the F414 deal. For my part, I can't narrow it down to any one factor as it was a comprehensive evaluation process but I wonder if Boeing had been able to demo a F414EPE-powered jet if it could have made a difference.
The SHornet had a mixture of smaller troubles which mounted up, concerns over transfer of technology, reliance of the supplier, industrial benefits etc stuff like that, then factor in the performance of the aircraft alongside the competitors.
Just a snowball of concerns from the IAF which at the time evaluated the aircraft with a "price is no object" criteria initially.
Just a snowball of concerns from the IAF which at the time evaluated the aircraft with a "price is no object" criteria initially.
I've got a question for those that follow the situation in India closely, is this deal ever going to happen? I ask because this hit the news recently:
Defence Minister A K Antony recently said that the deal would be signed only after it goes through five to six more procedures to ensure probity and integrity in the contract.
Combat Aircraft Deal: Def Min Likely to Review Tender Process - The New Indian Express
Five or six more reviews? That's probably several more months and IIRC India has elections in April. I only lightly follow Indian politics, but it seems to me the elections could delay this further.
Defence Minister A K Antony recently said that the deal would be signed only after it goes through five to six more procedures to ensure probity and integrity in the contract.
Combat Aircraft Deal: Def Min Likely to Review Tender Process - The New Indian Express
Five or six more reviews? That's probably several more months and IIRC India has elections in April. I only lightly follow Indian politics, but it seems to me the elections could delay this further.
On 31 January 2012 it was announced that Dassault Rafale won the competition but no news of a signed contract for aircraft so far. The contract negotiations have been ongoing for so long, that many like me, have lost interest in following. It will close, when it closes. I wish the Indian Air Force (InAF) good luck with closing the deal, because they certainly need it.
As Ajai Shukla has noted, India’s longest serving defence minister, AK Antony, has a regrettable penchant for avoiding difficult decisions that is offset by his admirable integrity. Further, I don't think AK Antony is known for his competence in defence matters. Keep in mind that the InAF projected a requirement for about 126 aircraft in 2001. It's now December 2013. The process has dragged on so long that Arun Kumar Bal, the joint secretary in the defense ministry in charge of air acquisitions has died of a heart attack (this news was reported in Oct 2013), further complicating talks over the delayed contract. Indian defence procurement can be very slow and under AK Antony, the procurement system has failed to keep the InAF sufficiently modernised in meeting external threats.
the road runner
Active Member
They are reporting that the wing's of the Rafale will be made in India
Dassault Plans to Make Rafale Wings in India | Aviation & Air Force News at DefenceTalk
I am under the impression that India is trying to get as much of the plane made in India as it can. I for one don't think they will get 126 planes as the Indian dollar is on a steep decline,but time will tell.
The contract has dragged on for a very long time
If I were them and wanted to get as much out of the Rafale deal as I could, I certainly wouldn't be buying Mig-29Ks to operate from aircraft carriers... if you can sling something the size of a Flanker from a ramp deck then the Rafale shouldn't have too many issues, and there's already a marinised version in existence.
Absolutely - and the Rafale's a more advanced jet, better avionics, engines, the lot as far as I can tell. That plus the spares situation has to be better - judging by comments about the Russian supply chain, it can't be worse.
I've no idea why you wouldn't buy Rafale M for the carriers unless there's a serious technical issue about STOBAR ops.
India has too many aircraft types, it's an expensive way to do business - although I gather the last of the Mig21f's is being stood down now?
I've no idea why you wouldn't buy Rafale M for the carriers unless there's a serious technical issue about STOBAR ops.
India has too many aircraft types, it's an expensive way to do business - although I gather the last of the Mig21f's is being stood down now?
Like most of the world, India has its own currency which is not called a dollar, & the rupee has a longer history than the dollar.
Looks like the IAF doesn't like what they see in the FGFA...MoD and HAL trying to defend the programme but it seems like the issues with the aircraft are pretty serious, namely-
1. Unimpressive/unreliable engines
2. Radar not good enough
3. Not meeting stealth requirements (!)
4. Probably will be too expensive in future
5. Not getting enough of the workshare (I'm not clear what this means. Maintenance can't be fully done in India?)
Link:Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF | Business Standard
1. Unimpressive/unreliable engines
2. Radar not good enough
3. Not meeting stealth requirements (!)
4. Probably will be too expensive in future
5. Not getting enough of the workshare (I'm not clear what this means. Maintenance can't be fully done in India?)
Link:Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF | Business Standard
Haavarla
Active Member
Does this seem a bit off from a technical point of view when we see how far(short) India has come up to present day. Take the Light fighter Development Teja..
And all of a sudden the Pak-Fa program does not meet a Whole bunch of requirement...?
That article is bad to the bone.. they should know by now that the 117 interim engine is there to get the platform through flight tests first and foremost.
And how can they know the radar isn't good enough when the radar and the radar system is far from completed?
My two cent is the last point, that workshare issue is the real bugger.
King Wally
Active Member
I was reading in a couple separate articles that it could be some positioning in order to lock away tight funds for their stagnating Rafale buy, perhaps at the expense of the PAK-FA program which is seemingly costing a hell of a lot of cash in development alone? Then again as Haavarla say's there's a solid case to me made about making some noise to simply try and secure more local workshare in the PAK-FA program.
Ah I realised the way I phrased the statement wasn't right. Rather, the existing design has a forward-facing radar, while the IAF wanted two additional radars on the sides of the plane to give the pilot greater awareness.
On that note, this puzzles me as the article states this:
But on Wiki, I see this:
So...to me, the side facing radars are already there...why is the IAF unhappy?
--- --- ---
Hmm, I'm unclear about one thing. By workshare being an issue, does it mean something to the effect of HAL and Sukhoi being unable to decide who builds what component? I last remember that the development of the aircraft was to be split 50-50, but I've not heard anything about who is going to build what.
Sorry for long post!
Strikes me as rather strange that if it is a workshare issue that it is the IAF doing the complaining. That would be the province of the MoD and trade and industry and financial beancounters. Instead, we see the complaints deal with issues of natural concern to the end-user e.g. performance, capabilities, quality and affordability.
richardparker07
Banned Member
INS Vikramaditya.
The Indian Navy has launched preparations to start flying operations from aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya.
The MiG-29K fighter aircraft have started taking off from the ski-jump and making arrested landings.
Having finished training in Russia, 10 top naval pilots have returned home to operate from INS Vikramaditya, which is berthed at Karwar naval base.
Source : Web
The Indian Navy has launched preparations to start flying operations from aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya.
The MiG-29K fighter aircraft have started taking off from the ski-jump and making arrested landings.
Having finished training in Russia, 10 top naval pilots have returned home to operate from INS Vikramaditya, which is berthed at Karwar naval base.
Source : Web
So...to me, the side facing radars are already there...why is the IAF unhappy?
It's not clear whether they'll be on the first serial run. There will clearly be at least two tiers of aircraft, with different engines. It's possible that the side radars won't come in until Tier 2. There's also the question of the L-band radar in the wings. It might be implemented right away, the way it seems to be now, or it might take longer.
I think that the 50-50 refers to eventual level of localization. I think they want more participation in development of the aircraft.
When workshare was mentioned in the earlier posts I was a little confused too since the article is about IAF complaints while MoD and HAL are trying to put up a good word for the programme. But since the workshare problem was brought up by the IAF's Deputy Chief of Air Staff...
...Unless workshare has something to do with maintenance and repair of vital aircraft parts in India i.e. radar and engines. I know for a fact that damaged engines need to be sent back to Russia for repair (although this issue pertains to the Flankers, I am not surprised if this applies to other Sukhoi aircraft), something that will severely affect operational readiness rates. If that is an issue that is somehow tied to workshare, then I can see why the complaints from the IAF.
Feanor, thanks for the info! The FGFA programme is still quite a mystery to me, and is probably the only other 5th Gen fighter programme with some publicly available information other than the F-35. Can't say the same for the Chinese designs though...
I would guess that the comments made both in the article and here on the forum pertain to the FGFA programme itself. Which would mean they commented on the way R&D contracts are being distributed between Russian and Indian firms.
My thoughts on this are 1: When I look at the way the Indians have and are handling the development of the Tejas, I wouldn't blame the Russians if they didn't assign to many important development contracts to the Indians...
But 2: I'm also not surprised that the Indians are a little angry about such a situation and feel they've become little more than a client c/q cash cow for this project.
However they have to know that the Russians are the only ones who will source them a 5th gen fighter on their terms (or something close to their terms). Because the Americans won't give them the ToT they desire and the Chinese are the ones they want to keep up with in the first place.
But while the Indians are a nice source of cash for the Russians, they are a less than reliable partner for a development product. This is illustrated by their inability to develop a pretty low tech fighter like the Tejas and their disastrous track record for defense procurement over the last two decades. That said with their likely contribution to the excellence of the envisioned fighter I would say 6bln is still a bargain for the tech they get in return.
I guess it could be a way for the IAF to say they'd rather want a plane they can get in the air in the foreseeable future (Rafale) rather than a good idea for the distant future (FGFA).