Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions

dragonfire

New Member
That's a result of lowballing the initial contracts,
Yup thats what i thought too, but as time has proven this is a self defeating model, also probably the Indian Attitude of Bargain hunting or max benefit for least cost outlook wouldnt have helped either.

But i feel India today is very keen on buying relevant & required products and has the money for it, even if it globally considered expensive, however the expectations from a supplier has also gone up, Russian supplier agencies need to catch up to the change in the Indian procurement standards, as now India has the capability to choose from American and or European entities.

The cancellation of the Joint Exercises is very un-professional and if related to the recent trend of Indian defense purchases going global then it is a very poor attitude, instead of backlashing the attitude should be to ramp up the capabilities and understand the change in the scenario and come up with better results as suppliers.

As of now this change is required to keep the Indo-Russian defense cooperations alive and take it to the next level where the historical relationships are supported by current world dynamics.
 

Twinblade

Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #22
The Su-30MKI now is costing over a Hundred Mill $ (although this could be because of yet un-specified upgrades ;) ) whereas earlier it was only a fraction of the same. Same case with the Gorshkov deal etc
That's a result of lowballing the initial contracts, as well as in many cases a real un-anticipated growth of costs because of poor state of production facilities. To be honest I'm not sure what's going on with the MKI cost spike, but with the Gorshkov those two seem to be the main culprits.
Here is a news report on the price hike for the last batch of 42 Mki's ordered
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sub7vro0z-4&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - ‪Russia hikes Sukhoi prices‬‏[/nomedia]

If i recall correctly, those 42 were ordered from Russia and not to be license produced in India. The license production agreement was for 140 aircraft, later increased to 180. This order was over the existing order.

There are time limits (and restriction by numbers as in this case) for repeat orders under contracts, beyond which any order is treated as a fresh order and price has to be renegotiated.

180 Mki's ordered $40 mil a pop till 2007 is very cheap. $40 mil might not even get you a Gripen NG in 2011.

Besides, the devil is always in the detail. Who knows this might include some sort of a fee for integrating Indian weapons and ammunition on the whole flanker fleet, or some sort of an R&D fee for future upgrades.
 

Toptob

Active Member
Maybe I should ask this in another thread. But is there any indication that Russian society will be able to produce sufficient personnell to improve the state of its (arms) industry any time soon? I mean are young people being educated? Are there enough young people to take over the baton? Is Russian society in general able to improve?

You can't make arms when your workers are starving, and the young people are sick and poorly educated. A defence industry is a national project with national interests, and it depends on direct input of capital from the state. That is financial as wel as social.

I don't see a lot of bright spots for Russia here, and the decline of their arms industry is ongoing. Perhaps India should be looking away from russia even more?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some companies can attract skilled young labor, most can't. Is there potential for it? Yes. Will it happen? Not all that likely.
 

Haavarla

Active Member
Maybe I should ask this in another thread. But is there any indication that Russian society will be able to produce sufficient personnell to improve the state of its (arms) industry any time soon? I mean are young people being educated? Are there enough young people to take over the baton? Is Russian society in general able to improve?

You can't make arms when your workers are starving, and the young people are sick and poorly educated. A defence industry is a national project with national interests, and it depends on direct input of capital from the state. That is financial as wel as social.

I don't see a lot of bright spots for Russia here, and the decline of their arms industry is ongoing. Perhaps India should be looking away from russia even more?
Sukhoi is addressing this issue.

ÊÍÀÀÏÎ

"Employees KnAAPO get new home
10.06.2011
In the near future in the Leninsky district on the street. Kalinina begin construction of a new apartment building for employees of OAO KNAAPO. Talking about his erection is a long time, but this year the construction of housing complex was approved by the Board of Directors of Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation production association.

The issue of building a new home for workers in the field of constant attention deputy of the Legislative Duma of Khabarovsk Krai Andrey Viktorovich Klimov. He was the generator of the idea of ​​construction of the object.

- Today, the task of providing citizens with housing costs in the first place among the urgent problems of Komsomolsk, so building a new home - is extremely important for komsomolchan project, - said A. Klimov. - The main task now - to ensure the organizational issues, including obtaining design estimates, the definition of a contractor building the organization, building a system of co-construction of the house.

At present JSC "KNAAPO contract with Komsomolskgorproektom" to design a 200-apartment building with total area of ​​13,400 square meters. meters. Construction of the house will be held in three phases. The first phase includes 60 apartments with a total area of ​​3,420 sq.m: 15 - bedroom (the area of ​​each apartment is 72 sq.m.), 30 - one bedroom (60 sqm), 15 - one bedroom (36 sq.m.). In the construction of the second part of 100 flats area 6048 square meters. m: 20 - two-bedroom, 60 - one bedroom, 20 - one bedroom. And the third place - it contains 40 apartments and an area of ​​2,160 square meters. m: 30 - and 10 one-bedroom - one bedroom. Territory near the house will be landscaped, equipped with lounges and outdoor games, sometimes parking area.

At present, corrected list of employees of the air force in need of better housing conditions. Sociological survey among factory workers showed that 300 out of 1000 respondents willing to participate in building a house.

Funding for the construction of a residential complex will be held as follows: 40% - interest free housing loan, provided by JSC KNAAPO future tenants (company employees) 60% - pay homeowners the financial means on the basis of a corporate mortgage on favorable terms. Now on the mortgage being negotiated with leading banks in the Russian Federation. Base cost of 1 square meter for the residents is planned within 35 thousand rubles.
With proper funding the first phase of construction will begin in October this year and completed in June 2012 to 80-year anniversary of Komsomolsk. The second stage is scheduled to begin in July 2012 and be completed in September 2013. Terms of the third stage - October 2013 - May 2014."


"700 students have passed the practice on KNAAPO "
09.06.2011
"700 students of universities, students, colleges and Komsomolsk Aviastroitelny Lyceum held last year in the industrial practice of the holding "Sukhoi" Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association named after Yu Gagarin. To ensure the company promising young staff created a system of training future professionals: School - Lycee Aircraft - Technical College, Technical University. For the training of the "narrow" profile of the plant has concluded a long-term contract with the Komsomolsk-on-Amur State Technical University, where students study for two years of basic disciplines, and special items - in the leading universities in Moscow, St. Petersburg, Krasnoyarsk and other cities. Currently, two-phase program of education trained 53 students.

Sukhoi pays great attention to training young professionals. Thanks to the last 10 years the activities of its divisions are constantly replenished by young skilled engineering staff. Annually to work in the company come more than 300 young professionals. They actively participate in the implementation of priority civilian and military projects, and in some areas have leading roles. Their share among the engineering staff now stands at 32 percent. Work with youth in a "dry" feel is especially important in solving the problems of innovative development. The company has a system of attraction, retention and professional development of young professionals. Held scientific-practical conferences, develops cooperation with partners, subcontractors, experts trained mid-level management within the productive activities are organized competitions "Best Young Manager of the holding" and "Best in the specialty." Work with students of profile high schools. Annually in conjunction with the Moscow Aviation Institute (MAI) held the Olympics in aviation to high school students. The winners will receive grants for training and then employment in the department. Created the group targeted training of the students third year of MAI (selection is up to the Olympics in aviation among the junior students). Students are in the company and its factories manufacturing practices that allow them to get acquainted with best practices for the latest models of aircraft. Program motivated students a stipend Sukhoi and salary while working at the plant in combination. Young professionals annually participate in the contest for the best scientific and technical work. The company has created and actively works council of young specialists."
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
KnAAPO, and Sukhoi in general are better off in this regard. Sevmash on the other hand is fairly screwed. Almaz-Antey isn't doing great.
 

Twinblade

Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #28
India to buy more than 16 C-17 airlifters

The Indian government has just cleared the deal for 10 C-17s for $4.1 billion, and together with another six aircraft, the deal would be for around $6.5 billion, inclusive of the 30 percent offset clause.
Reliable sources, however, say the IAF could opt for eight more aircraft, in which case the deal for the C-17s could touch about $10 billion or so.
IAF must be really pissed with Ilyushin's after sales support, such a massive order right before Ilyushin is about to introduce its new heavy lift aircraft, thereby totally killing its chances of competitive trials with C-17 and being L1 in the tender process.
 

dragonfire

New Member
What new heavy lift are you talking about? The Il-476?
Are there any specs available for the Ilyushin IL-476, is it only an advanced variant of IL-76; also are there any plans for new aircraft of this role planned by Russian firms ?

Looks like IAF is going for the C-17s in a big way, is too many too soon I wonder, but i guess its a good buy in terms of capabilities, however IAF's trust on the An-32s is still strong considering that the C-130s have only been ordered for Spec Ops
 

Twinblade

Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #33
India set to decide big military aircraft deals

On Helicopters

In an interview for India Strategic’s Paris Air Show edition, the Air Chief said that IAF had already finalized its choice for the combat helicopter while that of the utility helicopter had also been through with the Indian Army, which is the lead buyer in this case. IAF will follow and buy the same helicopter.

As for the heavy lift helicopter, “the final report can be expected within the few days,” he said
Boeing’s Apache AH 64D and the Russian Mi 28NE are the two contenders in the race for combat helicopters while Boeing’s Chinook – the only helicopter which can float on water – and Russian Rosoboronexport’s Mi 26 are in the fray for the heavy lift role. The utility helicopter race for the Indian Army and IAF has the EADS Eurocopter and Russian Kamov in the race.

On MMRCA
the commercial bids of the two finalists in the race for 126-plus Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCAs) would be opened mid-June (possibly before the Paris Air Show beginning June 20),
The Air Chief did not give any figures, but a rough calculation shows that IAF could be announcing deals worth $ 30 billion, or more, by the end of 2011.
The Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal, for which only the Eurofighter and Rafale remain in the fray, could touch or exceed $ 15 billion if the option for additional 63 aircraft is exercised in addition to the 126 units given in the tender. The three helicopters and the trainer aircraft, along with support and training packages, could be another $ five billion.

...However, it would still take a couple of months as it just won’t just be the price mentioned, but the package in terms of direct costs, support programmes, training, offsets and life cycle costs which would determine the winner. The race though is expected to be close.
On American fighters

The Air Chief observed that admittedly, the US had the best of the combat radars, weapons and systems. But then, each of the six contenders had given in writing that they would match the IAF requirements, including those for systems to be sourced from the US.
On AWACS
Air Chief Marshal disclosed that the last of the three Phalcon AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control Systems Aircraft) had arrived in India in March and deployed.
Two more AWACS mounted on IL 76 platforms had also been ordered.
The process to augment the electronic surveillance capability with aerostats – balloons with electronic surveillance radars – was continuing.
Now thats called an interview that clears the air :) Says nothing about network centric capabilities though.
 

Twinblade

Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #34
Are there any specs available for the Ilyushin IL-476, is it only an advanced variant of IL-76; also are there any plans for new aircraft of this role planned by Russian firms ?

Looks like IAF is going for the C-17s in a big way, is too many too soon I wonder, but i guess its a good buy in terms of capabilities, however IAF's trust on the An-32s is still strong considering that the C-130s have only been ordered for Spec Ops
IL-476 is rumored to have an increased fuel economy by up to 13% and load carrying capability of up to 65 tons.
 

dragonfire

New Member
Here is a news report on the price hike for the last batch of 42 Mki's ordered
YouTube - ‪Russia hikes Sukhoi prices‬‏

If i recall correctly, those 42 were ordered from Russia and not to be license produced in India. The license production agreement was for 140 aircraft, later increased to 180. This order was over the existing order.

There are time limits (and restriction by numbers as in this case) for repeat orders under contracts, beyond which any order is treated as a fresh order and price has to be renegotiated.

180 Mki's ordered $40 mil a pop till 2007 is very cheap. $40 mil might not even get you a Gripen NG in 2011.

Besides, the devil is always in the detail. Who knows this might include some sort of a fee for integrating Indian weapons and ammunition on the whole flanker fleet, or some sort of an R&D fee for future upgrades.
Dont know if i have already posted here on the same, but the latest order for the Su-30 MKIs could also have additional features to enable them as strike aircraft capable of deploying Nuclear armament. The Strategic Forces Command, which is responsible for the nuclear weapons and its delivery had requested the MoD for 2 squadrons for this specific role. So the order size of 42 was for 2 attritions and 40 aircraft for the SFC
 

Micky_Mouse

New Member
Dont know if i have already posted here on the same, but the latest order for the Su-30 MKIs could also have additional features to enable them as strike aircraft capable of deploying Nuclear armament. The Strategic Forces Command, which is responsible for the nuclear weapons and its delivery had requested the MoD for 2 squadrons for this specific role. So the order size of 42 was for 2 attritions and 40 aircraft for the SFC
Is a correct assumption. They will replace the role being done by the 4 leased Tu-22M Backfire (not sure if these are still around) and partially by the Mirage-2000H
Sukhoi-30MKI is the longest ranged modern fighter-bomber in the arsenal and in combination with weapons like Brahmos or in future the Hypersonic missile / Nirbhay cruise missile is a potent for SFC role.
It will do this till FGFA join in numbers.
 
Top