Thanks for the information.
IFV v APC
- Thread starter Asstroboy
- Start date
Yes, Tempest is the official name.
My uncle called them "Centurions" maybe becos in the 70s they were not standardised as the Tempest yet.
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Ok here one link:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/ArmourPenetration.htm
The data collected there was from tanknet postings and any data marked with * comes from Janes Ammunition Handbook 2002-2003.
And here some 76mm APFSDS data:
76mm M464 APFSDS (Demark 1986, Taiwan) – 25cm@0deg@1km (150mm@60deg@1km*)
76mm M500 APFSDS (not yet in service) - 150mm@[email protected]*
76mm GT4 APFSDS (S.Af) 305mm no range given*
Note those with * are from Janes Ammunition Handbook 2002-2003, so tanknet estimate of SAF 75mm APFSDS with 310mm @ 0-deg @ 1km is not exactly far fetched.
I don't think we have to return them.
The IDF had a quoted figure of about 1,000 Centurions or Sho't or Sho't Kal for the 1973 Yom Kippur War.
After that, they made peace with Egypt and were at the same time generously supplied with even more M60, which by the 80's became their main tank.
My assumption is they sold about 100 (unproven figure) to us after 1973 Yom Kippur War and we don't have to return them.
The Centurion still saw action in IDF's 1982 Lebanon invasion - as an MBT as well as in its APC incarnation.
EDIT: It is also not impossible that we may have obtained Centurions from other sources besides Israel. Many of our AMX-13 were acquired from India, for example.
The AMX-13 75mm gun is based on the WW2 German Panther, apparently.That is a respectable penetration level for that size of projectile.
I understand that the long barrel aids in velocity/penetration but I'm not knowledgeable on these technical things.
The short little 76mm gun on the British Scorpion that both our neighbours possess in small numbers, are much less powerful by comparison, I think. But if we are talking about a jungle tank, the Scorpion seems to be better suited as it is so compact.
And as someone has pointed out, the Autrian 105mm isn't an AMX-13 and only have a similar turret design. The Austrian vehicle is 2 tons heavier than the AMX-13 according to Jane's.
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Okay - yes I have seen this fact sheet also, thank you for providing it but I am a little skeptical with some of the round performances listed. This is not taking anything away from alot of the Tanknet chaps, I have nothing but high respect for the majority of them. Is it feasible yes, matched up to the length of that gun tube and better propellants and KE projectiles it can be accomplished. I will do some homework on it.
You are correct inregards to the deadly Panthers gun, your AMX-13s are not that much larger than the Scorpion, but the Scorpion is scary fast going cross country. You are correct that Austria did not actually buy AMX-13s from France but the did buy into the 105mm turret configuration/concept, it is the same exact turret down to the auto loading ammunition cylinders.
Hi Chino,
If SAF now is in 3rd transformation, than I belong to early 2nd generation.
Got a change to talk to guard man Bat 2IC, in actual combat situation for them drop off is 6km instead of 3km, reason being it has to be away from red force Bat support weapon range(81 or 120mm mortar).
Not sure of the new amour doctrine, during my day, the AI would not use as a direct assault force or defend ground; this shall be the trooper job. The AI shall only use if weakness point of red force identify, AI shall concentrate & ramp thru it than back franking & the AI shall dismount, by now the red force is facing 2 front line. I am from Arty organic to Amour brigade participated some of the amour ex & pro-test.
If SAF now is in 3rd transformation, than I belong to early 2nd generation.
Got a change to talk to guard man Bat 2IC, in actual combat situation for them drop off is 6km instead of 3km, reason being it has to be away from red force Bat support weapon range(81 or 120mm mortar).
Not sure of the new amour doctrine, during my day, the AI would not use as a direct assault force or defend ground; this shall be the trooper job. The AI shall only use if weakness point of red force identify, AI shall concentrate & ramp thru it than back franking & the AI shall dismount, by now the red force is facing 2 front line. I am from Arty organic to Amour brigade participated some of the amour ex & pro-test.
You want picture of the cutout rd where you could guesstimate the the dia and length of the penetrator rod?Okay - yes I have seen this fact sheet also, thank you for providing it but I am a little skeptical with some of the round performances listed. This is not taking anything away from alot of the Tanknet chaps, I have nothing but high respect for the majority of them. Is it feasible yes, matched up to the length of that gun tube and better propellants and KE projectiles it can be accomplished. I will do some homework on it.
Actually SOP is 5km and above for infantry, I think it is standard for US army as well.
On the Tempest I believe that one of the SA armd bdes (4 bde?) was the war time Tempest brigade. They were equipped with AMX-13s for collective training but all the crews were trained on the Tempest - easy enough to do even in a supposedly congested land like Singapore. Come a mobilisation they would drive out to battle in the Tempests.
Obvioulsy now with the open Leopard 2 buy the old Tempest brigade will just be Leopard brigade. For more detail about how the Tempest brigade was organised just look at what the SA is doing with the Leopard. Its will mostly be one for one.
Obvioulsy now with the open Leopard 2 buy the old Tempest brigade will just be Leopard brigade. For more detail about how the Tempest brigade was organised just look at what the SA is doing with the Leopard. Its will mostly be one for one.
I was infantry and the SOP is normally 6km. And movement to contact is usually after sundown, for obvious reasons.
I am also 2G SAF. Old man already.
Yes, agree. Guards, like infantry is 6km from objective if arriving by ground transportation. But this is all training SOP. I would imagine in battle the SOP will be flexibility.
I am not Guards but I reckon that 6km from objective will be too far if the Guards are arriving by heliborne insertion. You will lose the element of speed, surprise (to a certain degree), and defeat the whole advantage of heliborne insertion to begin with.
I would imagine the heliborne insertion be heavily supported by combat aircrafts and arty suppressing fire.
By my experience, a normal infantry battalion takes at least 3 hours to walk 6km through the forest at night and then form up for the assault. No one can see anything in the forest at night so it is all a complete mess, I can tell you.
For a heliborne force, that would be crazy waste of time.
The other unfortunate thing about this is that you will be quite tired by the time you reach the FUP even before assault. Yes, we are talking about 30+ year old reservists.
I don't know what AI SOP is. But, I know they are not used like infantry and you are right that one of their job is to exploit enemy weak areas.
But again, doctrine is a piece of paper. In Israeli wars, armour, and AI, are often used in head on frontal attacks by all sides. (Very hard to do flanking in the open desert without the whole world being alerted.)
And it will be unthinkable to use AI like infantry in having them march a few km to objective and then have them assault without fire support from their vehicles which they just dismounted from.
Sure - lets take a look at it.
Do you know where they were kept, it seems that they did a pretty good job of keeping them out of the public view.
Everyone seems to think Singapore is just a couple of city blocks. Its a pretty big island and ~150 tanks don't take up that much room.
As was posted earlier people knew about the tanks but you couldn't publish a piture of yourself posing on one at the local army day show (not that they were shown). Aparantly they were stored underground at a large SAF weapons depot.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/images/singapore-map1.jpg
As was posted earlier people knew about the tanks but you couldn't publish a piture of yourself posing on one at the local army day show (not that they were shown). Aparantly they were stored underground at a large SAF weapons depot.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/images/singapore-map1.jpg
Thanks AGR for the information, @gf0012-aust may have suggested that they were not standard Centurions, do you know what modifications were done to them.
By 1973, few, if any of the Centurions in IDF service were stock standard.
All were 105mm armed if I'm not wrong. And various other modifications were made but not standardised.
My assupmtion is that at least part of the SAF Tempests are former IDF vehicles and all of them are of the 105mm configuration.
All were 105mm armed if I'm not wrong. And various other modifications were made but not standardised.
My assupmtion is that at least part of the SAF Tempests are former IDF vehicles and all of them are of the 105mm configuration.
Many unconfirmed reports have suggested that it is similar to Israeli Sh'ot standard, afterall it would not be surprised that they were upgraded with the help from Israeli.
Basically with new diesel powerplant, L7 105mm gun, new FCS, and possible with ERA if you believe those reports.
The first batch of 63 was reported to be purchased in 1975 from India which could means strong recommendation from Israeli advisors, also at that time Vietnam unified under communist north with plenty of Russian MBTs and the cold war was then at it's height, lot of uncertainties.
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Interesting info, especially with the possible armor upgrade to ERA. Maybe with the fielding of the LEOs they will show the Centurions.
Do you have a model/designation name for the AMX-13 75mm round for me yet.
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I don't know the model/designation , I need to find out, but it was developed by CIS in the 80s with foriegn assistance and tungsten penetrator is imported.Interesting info, especially with the possible armor upgrade to ERA. Maybe with the fielding of the LEOs they will show the Centurions.
Here an old picture of a cut out of that rd:
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7669/75mmapfsdseu9.jpg
and here another during AOH (taken by goat89 and posted in MP.net forum)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u106/goat89/SDViewer0015a.jpg