If NZ gets fighters again, what should we get?

[nz enthusiast]

There are elections coming up this year most probably in September. National and NZ First both say they want to get New Zealand air combat capability again as a part of their policys. With the way the polls are going there is a fifity chance that national will win wit ha coalition of NZ First.
So if National gets in with NZ Firsts help, if you were asked to recommend a fighter to them what would it be?

 

[knightrider4]

The best answer to that would be what you can afford. Probably an F-16 variant.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The best answer to that would be what you can afford. Probably an F-16 variant.

I'd agree, a current block F-16 would be a useful capability.. interoperability with the RAAF would be nice - but the requirements and hence purchasing issues are different.

 

[Jason_kiwi]

I think they would probably get F-18s off the australians. An extar frigate would be nice to...

 

[gf0012-aust]

I think they would probably get F-18s off the australians. An extar frigate would be nice to...

matey you wouldn't want to get our FA/18's unless you get the HUG-BUGs. The unimproved ones will be having centre barrel problems.

some years ago it was discussed about co-locating RAAF Bugs in NZ to act as a fixed wing combat element (much like Butterworth deployments). That got rained upon by NZ Labor IIRC.

It would be good to have the Kiwis back in the game - they were excellent aggressor pilots when the Scooters were based at Nowra.

 

[Jason_kiwi]

F-16's it is then

What do you think of the NEW pp SHIPS???

 

[nz enthusiast]

I was actually thinking saab 39 gripens. It seems to me that they will have better support going into the future. Also we get along better with Sweden at the moment than the US, mainly thanks to Helen saying she woudl prefer Al Gore to have won the election in 2000.

 

[Jason_kiwi]

Mayby. How many do you think they wil get if they do???

 

[gf0012-aust]

I was actually thinking saab 39 gripens. It seems to me that they will have better support going into the future. Also we get along better with Sweden at the moment than the US, mainly thanks to Helen saying she woudl prefer Al Gore to have won the election in 2000.

they'll still be using F-16 motors.

one of my concerns with Sweden is that they've never had repeat customers for their combat aircraft. there's a message in there somewhere....

plus, they blacklisted parts supply for Oz during Vietnam.

 

[gf0012-aust]

What do you think of the NEW pp SHIPS???

Thye're a nice vessel, but IMV RNZN needs to have maximum avail weaps on all vessels if she's got a smaller fleet.

 

[Jason_kiwi]

I think they will get about 20-28 F-16'2...and im hoping they do. And another Frigate


Yes...although the current weapons proposed is enough for now...with the seaspite they are incredible

 

[nz enthusiast]

We could always go for mig-29s, we were offered them when we put up the tender for fighters. from memory we were always offered F-18s, saab 39s, harriers.
If we really really want to go blow some serious money we could go eurofighter or F-35 but i doubt any party would fork out that type of money.

 

[nz enthusiast]

What type of frigate jason_kiwi since the time we had to say if we wanted a third ANZAC frigate passed about 5 years ago, we either have to convince Australia to build us another or we would have to look else where. That could cause some problems. Also navy needs 150 more personal if even wants to use all the vessels its getting in Project protector, so how wouild it get the 200+ required for another frigate.
How much information is known about the armament potential of the project protector ships and the ANZAC frigate because Helen (put your favourite swear word describing a person here) has probably made so they can't be armed any better.
I think we just need to upgrade the current 2 ANZAC frigates and make sure the offer vessels are as armed as they can be...

 

[JoeinTX]

Almost certainly a lease/purchase of ex-USAF F-16s is the most likely to happen and there will be a number of -25s available fresh from U.S. service in a few years. These would make a tremendous combat element for the RNZAF.

BTW, what is prompting the political reconsideration of killing the combat force? I never thought the decision would be reconsidered once it was done....

 

[nz enthusiast]

becuase the first decision was made by Helen Clark and her labour government. National, New Zealand first and act disagree with the labour governments decision and they want to bring back air combat capability.

Ok you lot need to understand Helen Clark has always hated fighter aircraft, when the Skyhawks arrived in 1970 she protested, she was waveing a communist flag with Stalin on it. There is photographic evidence aroudn to prove this.

There was also an idea that the NZ army would defuse to delpoy into serious combat without air support from the RNZAF.

National says that one of first things they will do when they get back into power is bring back air combat capability, its politics and in politics no one agrees on the one decision. I hope this answered your question.

 

[Supe]

There are elections coming up this year most probably in September. National and NZ First both say they want to get New Zealand air combat capability again as a part of their policys. With the way the polls are going there is a fifity chance that national will win wit ha coalition of NZ First.
So if National gets in with NZ Firsts help, if you were asked to recommend a fighter to them what would it be?

When it comes to politics and promises; wait till you see it to believe it. I'd be surprised if the Kiwi's got their strike capability back, regardless of who wins.

Ok you lot need to understand Helen Clark has always hated fighter aircraft, when the Skyhawks arrived in 1970 she protested, she was waveing a communist flag with Stalin on it. There is photographic evidence aroudn to prove this.

Big deal. People grow up an move on. The fact that she's prepared to send NZSAS over to Afghanistan speaks volumes about her worldview as it is today compared to who she was a young person in the 70's. Back then, in the context of the times, her views weren't that radical.

I'd like to see NZ with some firepower represented by a squadron or two of fighters. I just don't see it happening. I get the distinct impression (and I may be wrong) that defence is seen by the community (or at least some journo's) as an onerous burden on the taxpayer, wasteful and unnecessary. If Clark is voted out, I doubt it will be because of the other party's proposal of arevamped Defence force.

Has the opposition come up with a proposed Defence budget or percentage of GDP they'd like to Defence dollars pegged at? What about figures for aircraft, training, maintenance, weapons? Ditto for having to purchase/lease trainers.

One solution for training, is to piggyback on RAAF trainers....

 

[Aussie Digger]

It'd be quite a process getting a fighter capability up and running again in the RNZAF. It's not simply a matter of choosing a plane and paying for it. You need someone to fly it for starters... I don't doubt that there's an ex-Skyhawk pilot or 2 running around the RNZAF who could convert back to fast jets, but they'd need to do a conversion course of some sort.

I think the acquisition of a training aircraft sup as the PC-9 or Super Tucano would be the first step. A lead-in fighter such as the Hawk, of T-45 Goshawk, L-59, Macchi or similar would be the next step, followed "eventually" by a front line fighter.

A plan could be an initial purchase of second hand PC-9's and Hawk's to begin training NZ pilots on their own aircraft. (Conversion courses could then be conducted with the RAAF). Once the initial courses were done, the serious "shopping" could be conducted.

SAAB JAS 39C/D Gripens could be an option. Hungary and the Czech Republic have leased them, so NZ might be able too as well. (They use an F/A-18 Engine too I think GF, the GE F404...) This would provide the benefit of relatively limited initial acquisition cost for a genuine 4th Gen fighter, with high level A2A, air to ground, maritime strike and tactical recce capabilities.

Second-hand F-16's would also be likely, given that they are widely available and fairly cheap, (compared to other available aircraft), these could be sourced from the US, or the Netherlands, Belgium, etc. They could probably only be leased from the US though and would require significant "non-recurring" investment if a maritime strike capability (ie: Harpoon, SLAM-ER) were to be included.

Another option could be F/A-18E/F Super Hornets. They would probably be at the pointy end of what NZ could afford, but would provide excellent capabilities in almost every aspect of air combat, including providing organic tanking and long range strike/maritime strike capabilities. They could also quite possibly be leased from Boeing (a lease was proposed to the RAAF by Boeing as an F-111 "Gap filler"), with ownership transferring to the RNZAF at the end of the lease. They'd also completely obviate the need to spend so much on a strike capability for the P-3K Orions.

I think a fleet of 28-32 fighters of whatever sort, would be sufficient for NZ to acquire 2 operational squadrons, plus an Operational Conversion Unit and attrition aircraft.

It'll be interesting to see if any of this occurs however...

 

[SABRE]

Almost certainly a lease/purchase of ex-USAF F-16s is the most likely to happen and there will be a number of -25s available fresh from U.S. service in a few years. These would make a tremendous combat element for the RNZAF.

BTW, what is prompting the political reconsideration of killing the combat force? I never thought the decision would be reconsidered once it was done....

2nd hand USAF F-16s are pretty good machines. They were grounded after fall of Soviet Union but there is still life in the Air Frame (alot of it). But lease them if u r looking for a stop gap. Purchasing wouldnt be a bad idea either till the new one arrive.

BTW what exactly is NZ's requirement (Pure Air Defence or MultiRol platform)?. PS what ACs NZ is flying now days?

 

[EnigmaNZ]

The RNZAF still does it's basic fixed wing training with the Airtrainer, the advanced trainer, the 17 Airmacchi 339's, are still unsold in storage so could be reactivated. Quite a bit of money has been spent ensuring they stay in a flyable condition. When the 17 Skyhawks were put into storage for evential sale, which has not yet occurred, they still had 10 years life in them, they too have had millions spent on them keeping them in a flyable condition durring storage, about $NZ8 million since 2000 iirc for both types. They had been updated to basically F16A standard previously. The updated installation provided HOTAS and a 'glass' cockpit (2 large CRT screens), new HUD, APG-66 radar aquisition and tracking (as per the F16), and a ring laser gyro inertial navigation system, as well as upgraded VOR/ILS equipment and the provision of chaff/flare dispensers. Parts of the wings were reskinned and some structural elements rebuilt, and the aircraft wiring replaced. The weapons capability now includes AIM-9G/L and AGM-65B. So they could be used as a interim until some low time F-16's come up again. These had already been costed and for a basic 12 a/c fleet, prosumably 8 C's and 4 D's for conversion, were priced at about what the LAVI3's cost, around $NZ650 million for late model C/D's. A fleet of 18 was just under a billion. I think we should aim for C/D's and pay a little extra, A/B's will be getting a bit tired, lack the upgrading of later blocks, and won't give us much more than what we have in the Skyhawk. except speed.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

2nd hand USAF F-16s are pretty good machines. They were grounded after fall of Soviet Union but there is still life in the Air Frame (alot of it). But lease them if u r looking for a stop gap. Purchasing wouldnt be a bad idea either till the new one arrive.

BTW what exactly is NZ's requirement (Pure Air Defence or MultiRol platform)?. PS what ACs NZ is flying now days?

From memory, Airtrainers and Bell Sioux for basic instruction, Kingairs for multi and instrument training, Iroquois for medium helo transport, Hercules and 757 combi's for heavy/long range transport, Orions for Maritine Air Patrol, and Kamens for helo maritine AP.
Tender is out for replacement of the Sioux, and the Iroquois are due to be replaced with NH-90's.
As far as the role of the RNZAF, under the Labour government, which is like left wing western governments elsewhere, has been redefined as transport and maritine air patrol. The transport role to support our contributions to various peacekeeping efforts, and disaster relief operations, and the maritine patrol role to help manage our EEZ, one of the larger such zones in the world, and help poorer Pacific neighbours do the same under various agreements.