How would PAF deal with the possible threat from indian Su-30mki?

[kashifshahzad]

You dont worry abt the money. PAF has enough money to buy 75+ F-16s & 40+ of other ACs besides we are not buying them over night. Its slow process & will last till 2018 to 2020.

PAF is no longer interested un Mirage2000 (Mirage2000-9P version).

Gripens were never denied, the weapon system was the problem which put the interest to rest for the time being. Gripens uses some of the US weapons & at that moment US was not willing to supply those weapons. Since US is now willing to sell those weapons because of F-16s the weapon system for Gripens also do not seem much of a problem any more. The Gripens may go back into discussion when India decideds its MRCA package & once Pakistan finalizes its AWACs deal with the Swedes.

Sabre That much time 2018-2020 i was thinking that our air fleet will be finalised in the 2010-2012 supose if the fleet completes in the time period which i have mentioned then at that time we will have enough money to build 1-2 huge dams and can also get 100+ MRCA think sabre these are 5-7 years now foreign currency reserves are adequate and growing so there is no chance that Pakistan cant afford 50 RAFALES or others but trying for concession in the prices is not a bad thing all countries do that.I know if the French Rafales were low priced then there would have been many contracts awarded to them but i dont know why dont they think about that even the future AC's like JSF are also low priced they do have an extra feature "Vertical Landing" if the weapon systems are AIM-120,AIM-9x,HARM,Harpoon,JDAM,GBU then it is affordable .New technology research its price is also added in this AC.

Ok SABRE lets talk abiut India every one here is talking about INDIAN 126 MRCA suppose India goes for

INDIA=Mirages then PAF=??

INDIA=EF then PAF=??

INDIA=F-16's then PAF=??

INDIA=F-15's then PAF=??

INDIA=Grippens then PAF=??

INDIA=J-10 then PAF=??

INDIA=RUSSIAN then PAF=??


I have included all options here some of them may not be suitable after seeing the whole situation but when i think there is 0.1% chance then that thing much also be included.

I know the weapon systems for the planes which PAF will go for will be same that old AIM-120,9x,Mervick,HARM,Harpoon,GBU,JDAM's and with fixed multibarrel cannon. All countries have the same weapon systems to offer with different names except that of F-22 that AC is extra ordinary the Lockheed Martin team is doing Just great if i was able to make that kind of team then i could have made some thing which would have helped PAF DAYDREAMING But those who dont see dreams dont get anything :

 

[SABRE]

What has India MRCA Deal to do with Gripen or AWAC for pakistan??

AWACs have nothing to do with IAF's MRCA but Pakistan will wait for India to choose its MRCA than it will decide weather to go for Gripens or some thing else.

I brought in AWACs because when we go back into the discussions for conditions we might open up the discussion for Gripens with Swedes.

Sabre That much time 2018-2020 i was thinking that our air fleet will be finalised in the 2010-2012 supose if the fleet completes in the time period which i have mentioned then at that time we will have enough money to build 1-2 huge dams and can also get 100+ MRCA think sabre these are 5-7 years now foreign currency reserves are adequate and growing so there is no chance that Pakistan cant afford 50 RAFALES or others but trying for concession in the prices is not a bad thing all countries do that.I know if the French Rafales were low priced then there would have been many contracts awarded to them but i dont know why dont they think about that even the future AC's like JSF are also low priced they do have an extra feature "Vertical Landing" if the weapon systems are AIM-120,AIM-9x,HARM,Harpoon,JDAM,GBU then it is affordable .New technology research its price is also added in this AC.

Well... PAF can finalize what they want by 2007 to 2008 or ur years of 2010 to 2010. By 2015 to 2020 would still be the time when the includings come near to hault or end.

I dont think PAF would be going for VTOL JSF-36 "if" US sells them to us. Those are US Marines version, PAF would go for regular USAF versions.

 

[rafale_2k5]

Recently contacted some of my contacts in PAF n they said that PAF F-16 with necessary customizations would cost around 75m dollars a piece , however they refused to indicate the systems being asked 4 , which leads me to the conclusion earlier disclosed by SABRE that AESA radar may also be part of the request otherwise plain vanilla block 52s cost around 35-40m $s a piece!!!!

 

[kashifshahzad]

Recently contacted some of my contacts in PAF n they said that PAF F-16 with necessary customizations would cost around 75m dollars a piece , however they refused to indicate the systems being asked 4 , which leads me to the conclusion earlier disclosed by SABRE that AESA radar may also be part of the request otherwise plain vanilla block 52s cost around 35-40m $s a piece!!!!

Dame where your sources are located you post here news which have no base. How can this be possible that the AESA radar could be given to PAF these now technologies such as new radars aircrafts (JSF F-22) are not given to any country except which have closest ties with the US there are chances that UK Australia and Isreal would be able to get that but i dont think US will give it to us.Now US is playing double strategy on one hand it is signing MoU with India for the missile coperation and on the other hand it is providing planes to PAF. All people in this world know that both these neighbours are enemies and have faught wars but what is the purpose to do this kind of thing .I have heard a statement on the news that Pakistan is a closest Ally for the US.
No one can deny the chance for the request of AESA radar but that radar is that muc costly which i was not expecting if one single piece of F-16 cost about 35-40m but with the AESA radar the plane will cost 75m so half of the price will be of the only for the Radar.

Mate post a link for that then i am gonna belive for that :coffee

 

[SABRE]

The standard F-16C/D Block 52 includes AN/APG-68 V(5) Radar. The latest ones include V(7) & V( 8 ) versions. But in 2002 V(9) version was introduced. V(9) will be included in the latest F-16s aquired by Greece & Israel.

Weather its going to be V(7), V( 8 ) or V(9) on the ACs bought by Pakistan, I cant say but AN/APG-68 should & must go through.

How would this Radar measure up to the threat of Su-30Mk1. I cant say any thing abt that either. I have been on some childish forums where children say that Su-30 is clea winner hands down. This is what you will get on almost all the forums. But I have also come across some forums where some members (Experts ..I should say, they are not children) have technicaly put Su-30 under F-16s threat. They say Su-30 is good but it cant win against F-16s (Specialy block 52 & 60) hands down. F-16s would still be major threat to Su-30s no matter what.

According to them AESA will play major role against Su-30 if both ACs ever came across each other. AESA & AIM-120 may be the major threat for Su-30s hence it is my believe that PAF will pursue AESA Radars at the minimum of V(7) version & must apply for V(9) versions.

AESA radars wont increase the unit price from $40m to $70+m alone kashif. What Rafale_2k5 said was that the whole coustomiztion would boost up the price per unit. I wont say any thing abt the price yet Rafale_2k5.

 

[highsea]

...According to them AESA will play major role against Su-30 if both ACs ever came across each other. AESA & AIM-120 may be the major threat for Su-30s hence it is my believe that PAF will pursue AESA Radars at the minimum of V(7) version & must apply for V(9) versions.

The APG-68 series are not AESA, you would have to request APG-80 for that (same as UAE got in the block 60's). This has been discussed in the PAF news thread, IIRC.

 

[SU 30MKI]

The standard F-16C/D Block 52 includes AN/APG-68 V(5) Radar. The latest ones include V(7) & V( 8 ) versions. But in 2002 V(9) version was introduced. V(9) will be included in the latest F-16s aquired by Greece & Israel.

Weather its going to be V(7), V( 8 ) or V(9) on the ACs bought by Pakistan, I cant say but AN/APG-68 should & must go through.

How would this Radar measure up to the threat of Su-30Mk1. I cant say any thing abt that either. I have been on some childish forums where children say that Su-30 is clea winner hands down. This is what you will get on almost all the forums. But I have also come across some forums where some members (Experts ..I should say, they are not children) have technicaly put Su-30 under F-16s threat. They say Su-30 is good but it cant win against F-16s (Specialy block 52 & 60) hands down. F-16s would still be major threat to Su-30s no matter what.

According to them AESA will play major role against Su-30 if both ACs ever came across each other. AESA & AIM-120 may be the major threat for Su-30s hence it is my believe that PAF will pursue AESA Radars at the minimum of V(7) version & must apply for V(9) versions.

AESA radars wont increase the unit price from $40m to $70+m alone kashif. What Rafale_2k5 said was that the whole coustomiztion would boost up the price per unit. I wont say any thing abt the price yet Rafale_2k5.

Well , i don't know by which level of knowledge you are claiming that , F16 on par of Su- 30s. If the person said according to your wishes then he become experts.........oh man give me break .

You better go and do some homework on technical stuff.......

F16 carrys only AIM-120 which medium range A2A missile while Su 30's can carry Long Range A2A missiles. Plus their Range of radar and then Angle of Attack.....and then manuverability ..........................

Man your so called experts are worse then kids........

mod edit: By the tone of you'r post you are the one sounding like a kid. And as far as doing "Their Homework", the guys posting here know more than they care to let on so instead of being the condescending 'smart aleck' try and get along with others and give their views respect. Kapeesh! :coffee

 

[SABRE]

The APG-68 series are not AESA, you would have to request APG-80 for that (same as UAE got in the block 60's). This has been discussed in the PAF news thread, IIRC.

Guess I missed out on that ... avionics ! I'll never understand them properly.

 

[highsea]

Lol, don't worry Sabre, keeping track of all the avionics numbers is kind of like trying to sort out the Russian's numbering system for their AC. Well, almost as bad...

SU 30MKI- it would behoove you to watch your tone here. You can post without insulting other members. And anybody who discounts the current batch of F-16's is opening themselves up to a rude surprise. IIRC, the Adl'A did pretty well with Mirage 2000's and MICA's against the SU-30's in Garuda I and II. So let's not pretend that MKI's are invincible...

 

[rafale_2k5]

<snip>

mod edit: highsea: I suppose there might have been something useful in this post, but since it was one long drawn out paragraph with no punctuation and no spacing, I just didn't feel like reading it to find out.

Better luck next time

 

[ajay_ijn]

Lol, don't worry Sabre, keeping track of all the avionics numbers is kind of like trying to sort out the Russian's numbering system for their AC. Well, almost as bad...

SU 30MKI- it would behoove you to watch your tone here. You can post without insulting other members. And anybody who discounts the current batch of F-16's is opening themselves up to a rude surprise. IIRC, the Adl'A did pretty well with Mirage 2000's and MICA's against the SU-30's in Garuda I and II. So let's not pretend that MKI's are invincible...

But they were Su-30K not MKI.
Su-30K doesn't have western avionics and also TVC i think.
Untill any excrecise does not involve AWACS,it really hard to say how MKIs really perform in combat.
While IAF evaluated the Su-30MKI and Mk-2000-5,the major difference pointed was cost,may be other factors were nearly same.
Reportedly Ada used E-3 AWACS for monitoring Combat between the fighters and Indian Air force Chief was invited in E-3.
It is said that Su-30K initially lost BVR engagements but were sucessful in WVR.
http://www.indiadefence.com/GarudaII.htm

 

[highsea]

The point is, Ajay, that the PAF would also be using BVR missiles. And very good ones, at that. the "MKI" after the number does not make the AC invulnerable to an AMRAAM, I can assure you.

I am quite sure that the IAF does not discount the F-16, the AC's combat record speaks for itself.

 

[XEROX]

Not suprised we lost BVR if France was using its E-3 AWCAS (please corrct me if im wrong), Regarding PAF training, do they practise BVR like India

 

[SABRE]

Not suprised we lost BVR if France was using its E-3 AWCAS (please corrct me if im wrong), Regarding PAF training, do they practise BVR like India

Right now we have BVR on F-7PG (PAC upgraded them, default F-7 are not BVR) & few Mirage-3 ROSE have been upgraded to BVR with the help of French(basic idea of maintaining Mirage-3 is to make them as good as Israeli Kfirs or RSAF's Atlas Cheetha even though I dnt knw how good both are...Mirage-3Rose are almost at par with them).

The BVR on these ACs is not much of a classified info but they are not declared or acknowledged by PAC, PAF, Pakistan govt, CAC [Chinese] & Dessault [French].

I dnt think they are much of a BVR compared to IAF's BVR on Mirage2000, Su-30MKI & MiG-29 but they are helping in training.

Pakistan & China are making a joint BVR missile which will be fitted on F-7s & JF-17s.

As all these are unpublished reports so the only pilots of PAF regarded as BVR trained are those flying Mirage2000-9 for UAE & those who fly UAE F-16s. They are all basicaly PAF pilots but they have been leased to UAE. They will be the initial batch to go to US to train on F-16C/D Block 52 but only on some of the avionics.

So regarding your question "do they practise BVR like India?" the technical answer would be "yes" they do.

After the fall of Soviat Union, Ukrain took a more moderate step of making friends with west & the foes of the former communist state which included Pakistan. They went for sort military alliance with Pakistan. Helped in providing Engines for Al-Khalid & are going Transfer the Technology of Engines to Pakistan. On the other hand they provided Pakistan with MiG-29s as aggressors (they are not combat capable though).
After some time when India had bought Su-30s, Ukrian offered Pakistan Su-27 as agressors but PAF rejected them cause they would not be combat capable instead they asked Ukrain to train PAF pilots on its combat capable Su-27s which the later agreed & few PAF pilots flew Su-27s. I dnt knw but if those Su-27 were BVR than PAF also has training on the Sukhoi's BVR.
Wheather any PAF pilot has had experiance over Chinese Su-30 is unkown & I doubt it also.

 

[ajay_ijn]

The point is, Ajay, that the PAF would also be using BVR missiles. And very good ones, at that. the "MKI" after the number does not make the AC invulnerable to an AMRAAM, I can assure you.

I am quite sure that the IAF does not discount the F-16, the AC's combat record speaks for itself.

I asked a person from defence in India about F-16,He said that its a very good plane.
But the point they stress is that F-16 can Fly very low to avoid Indian ground based Radars or Jam them with highly effective EW Systems.
That is Major point that everyone stresses in India about F-16,they do not speak much about if Su-30 Beats F-16 other than Forums beacuse if Indian Radars did not detect F-16 then where is the question of Fighters Taking off and having combat with F-16.

So regarding your question "do they practise BVR like India?""yes" they do.
After the fall of Soviat Union, Ukrain took a more moderate step of making friends with west & the foes of the former communist state which included Pakistan. They went for sort military alliance with Pakistan. Helped in providing Engines for Al-Khalid & are going Transfer the Technology of Engines to Pakistan. On the other hand they provided Pakistan with MiG-29s as aggressors (they are not combat capable though).
After some time when India had bought Su-30s, Ukrian offered Pakistan Su-27 as agressors but PAF rejected them cause they would not be combat capable instead they asked Ukrain to train PAF pilots on its combat capable Su-27s which the later agreed & few PAF pilots flew Su-27s. I dnt knw but if those Su-27 were BVR than PAF also has training on the Sukhoi's BVR the technical answer would be

I think if PAF gets Operational BVR AAMs,Avionics and Planes to Use them,then they it will be actual BVR Training.

The next step would be find a Country that has good experience in BVR Combat and have regular exercises with them.
Last step would be to develop their own BVR Tactics according to threat enviroment and also enemies capabilities.

India did use to the same method in Garuda-I/II and applied them in Cope India.
India is doing same with AWACS Training.

[font=verdana,arial,helvetica]PJ-10 BrahMos[/font][/url]]
Not suprised we lost BVR if France was using its E-3 AWCAS (please corrct me if im wrong), Regarding PAF training, do they practise BVR like India

Several IAF Officials(Even our Air Chief) flied in E-3 AWACS to work closely with French counterparts to guide the fighters in their missions.
E-3 AWACS was used to control the combat.
I am really surprised,French allowed IAF officials to get acess and to know about AWACS.
Guess what happened next,IAF got truly excited about AWACS and decided to send pilots to other countries to AWACS training.

 

[SU 30MKI]

Well , i don't know by which level of knowledge you are claiming that , F16 on par of Su- 30s. If the person said according to your wishes then he become experts.........oh man give me break .

You better go and do some homework on technical stuff.......

F16 carrys only AIM-120 which medium range A2A missile while Su 30's can carry Long Range A2A missiles. Plus their Range of radar and then Angle of Attack.....and then manuverability ..........................

Man your so called experts are worse then kids........

mod edit: By the tone of you'r post you are the one sounding like a kid. And as far as doing "Their Homework", the guys posting here know more than they care to let on so instead of being the condescending 'smart aleck' try and get along with others and give their views respect. Kapeesh! :coffee

Some people like Kids......... Well howcome you agree with a person who claims that My Vintage MIG 21 Plane can beat F22 ...........isn't sound stupid ?
Well even you can talk about technically ............ to can check for yourself ......

1) Radar Range:
Su30 MKI : 350+ Km dection range and 200 Km Tracking Range
F16 : 150+ Km detaction Range

BVR, Head-to-Head:
The Frontal RCS of F-16C: 1.2m2
The Frontal RCS of Su-27/30: 10m2

Maximum effective detective Range:

• AN/APG-68 V5: 70~80 km for RCS = 5m2 target
• AN/APG-68 V9: 90~105 km for RCS = 5m2 target
• AN/APG-80: 130km for RCS = 5m2 target

• N-001 (Su-27S): 80~100 km for RCS = 3m2 target
• N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2): 90~110 km for RCS = 3m2 target
• N-001 V (Su-27SM): 135~150 km for RCS = 3m2 target
• NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI): "140~160 km for an F-16 target"

Source : (AIR INTERNATIONAL, 2004, Jan)

​

Theoretically, then

• The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V5 to detect Su-27/30 is about 85~95 km.
• The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V9 to detect Su-27/30 is about 110~125 km.
• The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-80 to detect Su-27/30 is about 155 km.

• The maximum effective detective range for N-001 (Su-27S) to detect F-16C is about 64~80 km.
• The maximum effective detective range for N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2) to detect F-16C is about 70~88 km.
• The maximum effective detective range for N-001 V (Su-27 SM) to detect F-16C is about 105~120 km.
• The maximum effective detective range for NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI) to detect F-16C is about 140~160 km.

Result : Only Latest Block 60 AN/APG -80 Radar Can Match Currently Su-30 MKI's, NO11M Radar in Range.


2) Number of Targers Dections :

• SU 30 MKI Radar can track and engage 20 air targets and engage the 8 most threatening targets simultaneously.
• F 16- ???? Plese Help ...

3) Operation Ce Heigh :

• Su 30 : 18000 m
• F16 : 16000 m

Result : SU 30 can operate out of Range of F16. So F16 can't target Su 30.

4) Speed :

• Su30 : 2.35 Mach
• F 16 : 2.0 Mach

5) Armaments A2A) Only

• Su 30 : AA-12 / R-77 , Range : (90 km (R-77), 175 km (R-77M1)
• 30 mm Gun

• F16 : AIM- 120 , Range : 50 Km ( medium Range A2A Missile)
• 20mm Gun

http://en.wikipedia.org
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/su30/

Result : SU 30 Can launch BVR missile much before F 16 , So it can take F16 at safer distance.



Now i don't know who people can make tall claims ............

 

[SU 30MKI]

The point is, Ajay, that the PAF would also be using BVR missiles. And very good ones, at that. the "MKI" after the number does not make the AC invulnerable to an AMRAAM, I can assure you.

I am quite sure that the IAF does not discount the F-16, the AC's combat record speaks for itself.

are you talking about these type of AC combat Records????

a Dutch F-16 shot down a Mig- 29. But it was 3 MiGs vs 4 F-16s, 2 F-15s and an AWAC. Hardly a decisive test. As one said, "it's not what you fly it's how you fly it." Or words to that effect.

Or talking about PAF F16 shood down afganistan ..vintage planes , which can;t fire any missiles ......
http://www.janes.com/defence/news/kosovo/jdw990401_01_n.shtml

 

[Brit]

The Frontal RCS of F-16C: 1.2m2

with or without droptanks, missiles etc?

 

[SU 30MKI]

I asked a person from defence in India about F-16,He said that its a very good plane.
But the point they stress is that F-16 can Fly very low to avoid Indian ground based Radars or Jam them with highly effective EW Systems.
That is Major point that everyone stresses in India about F-16,they do not speak much about if Su-30 Beats F-16 other than Forums beacuse if Indian Radars did not detect F-16 then where is the question of Fighters Taking off and having combat with F-16.

well I think India has Arostate Radar from Isreali which can detect low flying planes , including other Indian made radar like Rajendra .

Also AWCAS which is on te way can also detact F-16 as soon as it turn own its engine on the runway.

 

[adsH]

Or talking about PAF F16 shood down afganistan ..vintage planes , which can;t fire any missiles ......
http://www.janes.com/defence/news/kosovo/jdw990401_01_n.shtml

You need to be cautious here the F-16 PAF operates is still very relevant. The Tech may be old it still Has Missiles that it can fire at MKI in WVR. And now they'll be AIM9-M, these are the same block that are used on the Euro fighters. The PAF F-16 will be going through a comprehensive MLU program. That F-16 that was shot down over Afghanistan was an Own kill simply an error with Sidewinder (Very new at the Time).