How would PAF deal with the possible threat from indian Su-30mki?

[ajay_ijn]

It would be waste for PAF to send their Fighters to shoot down SU-30MKI. Becoz any fighter less than Typhoon or Rafale ,MKI will eat it alive.

I can assure you there others that can fair up against a Su-30 MKI. F-16 Block 60 for one, is a good match for it to begin with. :smokingc:

But MKI will get the first shot as it is having a good RADAR.

If US is going to give F-16 block 60 armed with AMRAAM then it will be quite a challenge to MKI.
But if it becomes dogfight of close ranges trouble will be for F-16 becoz of MKI's maneuverability.

But will bush or kerry give F-16 block 60 to pak is the big question.
On the other hand Su-30MKI can be armed with AA-10 alamos of 130km which outranges AMRAAM.

I don't know much about SD-10 what is its range and specs
When is it availaible to PAF.

PAF does have one of the best combat ready F-16 fleets in the world despite the sanction slapped on by U.S. On the other hand, several reports indicated that MKIs are in poor operational readiness and constantly needs Russian asistance in maintaining them. This directly determines how many sorties you can fly during a time of conflict and can have a tide-turning effect of the war.

True but they were not MKI's the were Su-30MK.
In the years of 97 and 98 they had some servicebility problems but the mistake was Sukhoi not the IAF.
When MKI's were delievered in 2001(i think) they had no such problems and everything is alright now.

Now I'm not saying PAF has the advantage which is obviously not the case, but I'm saying you need to take other factors into the equation. A single advance platform isn't going to win you a war.

The other factors would be like operational readiness which now ok fo MKI.
Then traning in which PAF is thought better than IAF counterparts.
Then AWACS ,Pak is getting ereiye AWACS but IAF is getting the big phalcon.
Then Air to air refuelling capability which IAF is having but not for PAF.
Then the ground RADAR support which IAF is better then PAF.
Any other factors.

 

[umair]

Then the ground RADAR support which IAF is better then PAF.

Uh! :idea2 ever heard of PADS-77, sorry now it's PADS-2K4.

 

[SABRE]

no u tell him

 

[P.A.F]

my answer to the subject question is simply build huge fleet of jf-17's along the lines of 200, get any f-16's available and get those gripens. i personally think that gripen would shit on the su-30 MKI. but thats my view.
if not gripen then rafale. i can't see any other option.

 

[rajupaki]

In my opinion the best way to counter Su30( if we were don't get hi-tech aircrafts) is to place long range SAM's(ft-2000)+upgrade existing aircrafts to place Long range BVR AA missiles on them!

A question> which j-10 missile has the maximum range? I thought it was SD-10 or any other?

 

[Pathfinder-X]

SD-10's range is estimated to be around 70km. It has similar size to R-77 with general aerodynamics layout close to AIM-120.

Quoting from Sinodefence.com

From the revealed photos of the SD-10, it can be estimated that the missile has a similar size to the U.S. AIM-120 and Russian R-77/AA-12 Adder. The general aerodynamic layout of the SD-10 is also highly identical to the AIM-120.

In 1996 China revealed an active radar-homing seeker AMR-1, which is possibly based on Russian technology. Claimed to be developed for the new generation active radar-homing MRAAM, the AMR-1 seeker or its developed variant could be used to guide the SD-10.

 

[SABRE]

JF-17 is also using SD-10 right. What abt F-7PG, isnt it suppose to be BVR capable, what BVR is it carrying?

 

[adsH]

JF-17 would i think carry french armaments since most of the avionics would be french, read this in AFM i think not too sure.

 

[SABRE]

JF-17 would i think carry french armaments since most of the avionics would be french, read this in AFM i think not too sure.

By French equipment u mean DESSAULT. What, r v trying to get it similar to M2k.

Wat abt f-7PG

 

[adsH]

i can only stipulate at the Avionic package that would be installed on the early version of the AC. they shouldn't be very different to the current Mirage 3 rose config, since thats what the AC replaces.

 

[ashoaib]

I think it will be difficult for JF-17 to counter SU-30 because SU-30 is over all far superior. The only thing which JF-17 can do is BVR if with a good package. SD-10 alone cant do much it requires good package of Radar and other electronics to work perfectly. All we need is new high tech fourth gen AC may be Rafale or EF-2000 and F-16 block 60 can also do the job which Bush will never approved. I dont know that the gripen match SU-30 or not. The world is really though for Pakistan. Sources to get high tech ACs are very limited and the other delimma is money.

 

[rajupaki]

I think Pakistan can afford the Rafels. Look> according to Mr Shoukat Aziz(when he was finance minister)in 2004, Govt will spend 15 Billion Doller in the next Five years for the defence and realizing the Importance of Airforce in country's defence, it will get a big share in it!
Now If we Divide This 15 Bilion into five yers then each year we get 3 Billion. As aziz said that AF will get a big chunk, so if thay give 50% of the total amount to the AF then it became 7.5 Billion Dollers For AF in comming Five Years.
From this 7.5 B$ if we exclude 2 Billion for The Pays of Officers,Pilots,workers etc and Maintanance of current Fleet, traning etc, then 5.5 Billion will remain in the pocket.Now lets Break these $$$'s apart!

2.25 Billion for 150 JF-17's (150 Million for each)
1.2 Billion for AWACS (number =7)
2 Billion For ??? (we can put here 40 Rafels)

And don't forget that it is a five year program after five year we will again get this money may increase to 40-50% because of our growing economy! So their is a good chance to get atleast 80-100 Rafels Until India gets their 150 MKI's

Well that is some of my immature projections, any mature comment on it is happily welcomed

 

[Libyan]

Someone wake corsair.

You are dreaming if you think 2 jf-17s are equal to a rafale.

 

[rajupaki]

Someone wake corsair.

You are dreaming if you think 2 jf-17s are equal to a rafale.

Who said it? please quote it next time!
otherwise your post will be deleted!(just a joke)

My god i am acting like a class teacher : :

 

[Sq No.15]

I think Pakistan can afford the Rafels. Look> according to Mr Shoukat Aziz(when he was finance minister)in 2004, Govt will spend 15 Billion Doller in the next Five years for the defence and realizing the Importance of Airforce in country's defence, it will get a big share in it!
Now If we Divide This 15 Bilion into five yers then each year we get 3 Billion. As aziz said that AF will get a big chunk, so if thay give 50% of the total amount to the AF then it became 7.5 Billion Dollers For AF in comming Five Years.
From this 7.5 B$ if we exclude 2 Billion for The Pays of Officers,Pilots,workers etc and Maintanance of current Fleet, traning etc, then 5.5 Billion will remain in the pocket.Now lets Break these $$$'s apart!

2.25 Billion for 150 JF-17's (150 Million for each)
1.2 Billion for AWACS (number =7)
2 Billion For ??? (we can put here 40 Rafels)

And don't forget that it is a five year program after five year we will again get this money may increase to 40-50% because of our growing economy! So their is a good chance to get atleast 80-100 Rafels Until India gets their 150 MKI's

Well that is some of my immature projections, any mature comment on it is happily welcomed

Well your calculatoin didn't include the Fuel price and missiles cost , like Air to air missles , bombs and spare part cost , which almost cost more then half of airforce budget and their very little left fro development , Even India Find it too expensive which have around 4 Billion / year its defence budget. I don't think that both countries Airforce can affort Rafale's and Euro Fighter.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Depending on platform complexity, simulators etc... the on costs are typically 50-100% of the cost of the platform in through life support.

Actual platform cost means very little.

 

[VICTORA1]

Guys,
My understanding is that the PAF has three times the number of pilots per aircraft as compared to IAf. So the PAF believes that it can fly more sorties. Now as to the capabilities of the SU 30----indeed it is a magnificiant aircraft, but till we get to that point of actual combat, we maynot know how often the the BVR equation comes into play. And indeed BVR engagement by highly capable fighters are indeed deadly. A missile flying at 3000 to 4000 kph can get to its target without the opponent knowing what killed him.

And indeed this actually happened in the first Iraq war when some of the iraqi mirages were taken out by the phoenix missiles. Accordlingly the victim didnot know what killed him. There was no evasive action registered, they never saw anything coming. They died without even knowing that they were dead. The brain could not register the ensuing moments.


Coming back to the SU 30 situation---pakistan has nothing in its fighter wing to counter it ecxept for the land based missiles. I think that the pakistanis must refrain from using examples of what we are thinking of getting or what is in the pipeline. The grippen is no match for the SU 30.

Wake up little boys----you response is like----my uncle will come and beat you up i.e. we should get the rafael----or I will call my dad to beat you up---plz somebody give us the Block 60. When we get what we get then we will beat you up. We got absolutely nothing---corruption has eaten our reserves to the bare bottoms. The only thing the indians are afraid of is what if---what if pakistan came up with something to countermand its SU 30's, the 27's, the 2000's, the jaguar's, the bison 21's and gave it a bloody nose, then it would be a real real big embarrassment in front of the whole world.

Pakistan will have to buy a fighter plane from china with two tails/fins and two holes in the back to counter the threat. There is no other way out.

 

[P.A.F]

how can you say the gripen is no match for the IAF su-30 MKI's. if the Gripens had latest tech on it which it can then i think it can beat the su-30 for joke.

 

[muslim282]

Victora.... please elaborate on the quote with relative info and data on how the SU30 (indian versions) are superior to the Gripens. (south african pilots who flew both, described the gripens as more capable).

l don,t think the purpose of the JF17 will truly be to counter the SU30,s, but the bulk of the indian airforce in the form of M2000,s, jaguars, various migs and soon the LCA.
For the SU30 purpose the pakistanis will be looking at the F16 and J10 and possibly one other western fighter.
A decent radar and good BVR missiles will render the SU30,s. Hence much delay to the ltalian griffo radars which are being delayed for a purpose ie. to counter the indian threat. The italians and pakistanis did not go back to the drawing board regarding the Griffo radar for no reason.

The ukrainians offered PAF the SU27 with a radar that had an improved distance over the indian version but was subsequently turned down, mainly due to the fact of spare parts and future assisstance in maintaining them.
With the chinese now building most of the parts for the SU27 for their planes and also the engine, it could also be a possibility in the PAF.

 

[gf0012-aust]

couple of issues to note when people get hung up on the issue of plane superiority, Su-30 and Gripen in particular.

The Indian Su-30 is acknowledged as being the best of the Su-30 types in service. It's electronic suite, fit and finish is highly regarded. It gets around a lot of the construction complaints about Su's in general It is held in the same sense of construction regard as the Chinese Su-27. (Also acknowledged as the best of the Su-27 builds)

In comparison, the Su-30 has:
a far greater weaps load out
a far greater flexibility in mission type
far greater sortie rate due to range and loiter issues
immediate access to far more weapons types
broader user base, so easier to source parts and components - it's also using european and israeli technology

The Gripen was designed for
short range point defence
short range strike (anyone noticed how big Sweden is - and what her national defence doctrine is? then remember that the Gripen was designed around that tactical requirement - it was not designed as an export priority but as a national requirement to replace Viggens etc nearing the end of their utility)
The Gripen is desgned to use later weapons suites, and as such is not as "backward" useful in weaps load outs - it also is a restricted military buss - you cannot just add magical weapons on to it without it going through a validation and certification process - and that assumes that the weapons can be added as well. This is not always possible.

There are a lot of assumptions being made about Gripens strength when a lot of it is based on the fact that its built to work within a symbiotic response structure.

You need to look at capability issues, flexibility issues, the local threat matrix, the initial design brief of both platforms - it's not as "clear" as some believe.

Then there is the huge multiplier of an autonomous AWACs designed from the outset to work with existing jets in the IAF as opposed to an AEW GCI platform that has yet to be integrated into a force structure with disparate older aircraft.

People persistently look at planes as though they singularly will decide outcomes - and that is decidedly untrue.