How would PAF deal with the possible threat from indian Su-30mki?

[corsair7772]

Its the man that counts more than the machine

 

[Londo Molari]

But a lot of good men die due to crappy equipment.

Yes, the SU-30MKI is capable, specially compared to the current inventory. But after the JF-17 induction the difference is significantly reduced. No real need to worry. After the JF-17 is in service, if X number of Su-30s enter Pakistan, less than X will return.

 

[corsair7772]

But a lot of good men die due to crappy equipment.

if X number of Su-30s enter Pakistan, less than X will return.

I like ur style of equations.

 

[Su_37]

Su-30MKI is no-where near F-22 or F-35/JSF.

Its even inferior to Eurofighter and Rafale. Pakistan HAS the optin to buy Rafale.

The Su-30MKI is more on the level of F/A-18 E/F and Gripen.

If pakistan gets JF-17, and Rafales, it will have a solid defence.

As for TVC, thats becoming more and more irrelevent in modern air combat which is mostly beyond visual range. Now you need good missiles, good radar, and good counter measures/jamming.

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The Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MK, the high-performance fighter being exported to India and China, consistently beat the F-15C in classified simulations, say U.S. Air Force and aerospace industry officials.

In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15's radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond. This is according to Air Force officials who have seen the results of extensive studies of multi-aircraft engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing's St. Louis facilities.

"The Su-30 tactic and the success of its escape maneuver permit the second, close-in shot, in case the BVR [beyond-visual-range] shot missed," an Air Force official said. Air Force analysts believe U.S. electronic warfare techniques are adequate to spoof the missile's radar. "That [second shot] is what causes concern to the F-15 community," he said. "Now, the Su-30 pilot is assured two shots plus an effective escape, which greatly increases the total engagement [kill percentage]."

THE SCENARIO in which the Su-30 "always" beats the F-15 involves the Sukhoi taking a shot with a BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) and then "turning into the clutter notch of the F-15's radar," the Air Force official said. Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30's relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter's maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said.

If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15's Doppler radar--which depends on movement of its targets--until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.


I don;t know what you people read. See for yourself in the Airshows where every plane shows its skills and AT one time SU37 Pilot openlly challenges the other for open competiotion , even F22 , Eurofighter etc can't even come farward.

The fighting skills , and low speed Knighf and Cobra style attack and Zero degree reverse Turn , can outbeat any missile and aircraft and its maneuverability is unmatched in the world.

If you don't believe it then go for air show where SU pilots challange is still wating ......

Man . u don';t know SU37 capabilities........

Regarding Sitting ducks ..... first thing any plane has to do is protect itself from SU, becasue their are always behind anyone tails.

Cobra :
Perhaps the most fmous of all, in this move the sukhoi pitches up to 120 degrees angle of attack, and almost stops in mid air. The nose then falls back through to the horizontal, and the aircraft accelerates away in the original direction. There in no major gain or loss in height (unless there is an error of some sort on the entry and recovery.

Hook :
This is a cobra pulled whilst the a/c is turning in a circle so that it points its nose across the circle.

In the Su-37, the cobra and the hook are performed by the pilot disabling the angle of attack (alpha) limiter on the flight control system just prior to the pitch up. The fly-by-wire FCS normally limits the aircraft to 35 degrees alpha, but by disabling the alpha limiter, the pilot can generate up to 110 degrees alpha in the aircraft which does not have TVC. This is simply a demonstration of the aircraft's ability to generate a tremendous pitch rate, without changing the vector of flight.

Kulbit/Somersault :
It is performed by pulling up the machine with a steep angle of incidence (AOA) and a slowing down of the airspeed in an internal vertical role. This loop is extremely small in diameter and is only possible in TVC and FBW equipped aircraft.

Bell/Tailslide :
This involves rising up vertically till the speed is reduced to zero following which the nose is allowed to fall under gravity. The pilot uses this to change direction as desired. The Tailslide also defeats doppler radars on the attacking aircraft.

Some Manuvers only the SU37 can perform..

 

[Timmy]

i've read almost the entire discussion regarding SU-30+how to counter it...etc.No doubt that the SU-30 is a very fine aircraft, but one thing which every1 is forgetting is that the once the SU-30 is fully armed, its a flying tank,any one can shoot it like a duck. The reason why im saying this is because the empty weight of an SU-30/27 is 30 tonnes, just imagine how heavy it will be when fully loaded, even the IAF has concerns over this. During the last years military stand off with India, why didnt they attack us despite Vajpaee saying that we will win? They didnt even cross our air space once!
So Boasting to the whole world that we have the best fighter is one thing but having the gutts to fly it is another!


Admin Edit: Lets keep ourselves from degrading national leaders and figures of other countries! Please use politeness and respectful way when you address leaders of other nations. I am sure you want to the same treatment in return.

Thank You

 

[Winter]

Timmy I have told you before:

'Weight/Mass whatever are not a serious factor for comparing combat aircraft in relation to their skills. Look at the F/A-18 Hornet and the Super Hornet.'

The Super Hornet is several tons heavier and 25% larger than the Hornet, yet is vastly more capable.

Weight is not a crictically important factor when comparing abilities.

 

[Londo Molari]

If the simulations were so "classified" hoe come we have the info in public? sounds like bullshit to me.

Besides, the F-15 is a 30 year old aircraft. And even IF, SOMEHOW, the Su-30 can beat the F-15, it still cant beat
the Eurofighter
the Rafale
the F-22

Even the Gripen and F/A-18 E/F will match the Su-30...

So dream on.

 

[umair]

Any pilot with a good eye can anticipate & counter the cobra.The flanker goes up loses speed other pilot 3-4 knts back slows down shoots a heater
which goes straight up mr flanker's ass( ouch!).Result flanker history.Remember Su(-37) that the cobra and hook will work ONLY at extremely close range ie gunfights less than 1.5 miles.The flanker wont be able to dodge the new phased array artificial aperture radars installed on Falcon block 60s, Super hornets, Rafales ,hell! even the J10 will have one.Meaning no more sneak attacks.As for TVC the production J10 is a candidate for it and the Chinese have already developed it with Ivan's help.
And if we get the TVC J10 it will be as Londo said "X su30s come in,less than X su30s go back"

 

[Su_37]

Yea , i think you are right ,,,,, Just believe in dreams .. good luck ...

Like your Pattern Tanks again out rocket lunchers
Like your F107 again migs.

you really won the batter , in fact pattern tanks was soo much strong as pak said at that time that it was broken by just simple rockets ..uffff ... wake up ......

I don;t understand ,,, when you people start accepting reality.

Try to search yourself ,,,, in comparision ,.,,

regarding ,,many secreat infomation leaks , American spys watching pak plane loading missiles from korea , which pakistan denied it but American released it but didn;t commont about validity !! its like that dude ,,,,,,


OK,. can ya get F22 or can affort it ?

 

[Su_37]

i've read almost the entire discussion regarding SU-30+how to counter it...etc.No doubt that the SU-30 is a very fine aircraft, but one thing which every1 is forgetting is that the once the SU-30 is fully armed, its a flying tank,any one can shoot it like a duck. The reason why im saying this is because the empty weight of an SU-30/27 is 30 tonnes, just imagine how heavy it will be when fully loaded, even the IAF has concerns over this. During the last years military stand off with India, why didnt they attack us despite Vajpaee saying that we will win? They didnt even cross our air space once!
So Boasting to the whole world that we have the best fighter is one thing but having the gutts to fly it is another!


Admin Edit: Lets keep ourselves from degrading national leaders and figures of other countries! Please use politeness and respectful way when you address leaders of other nations. I am sure you want to the same treatment in return.

Thank You

Well , i don;t have recall the incident when a MIG 27 all flow over Islamabad in 90's and PAk find no plane in its inventory to intercept it, it is stated by then defence minister in PAk parliament, also hunting down the French maritime plane across broder by MIG 21 even when PAk radar didn't even pick MIG 21 Movement and no plane fly to protect those poor 16 lifes.

I admit that Indian political leaders are not good enoughf if that decision was in Army's then ........u know .... India need leaders like India Gandhi , which can even shakes americans.

And one more thing , Indian plane dosen't cross becasue of International pressure , and i hate to admit that during that time india buckled under american prssure , american save pak like that they did previously.

 

[Su_37]

Well congrates ,, China is not world power ,, KOOL na .....with its planes

But :cop only on papers , and in discussus

 

[corsair7772]

China's got some high flyin Mig-31s. They cud handle those high flyin intruders pretty nicely.

 

[Red aRRow]

Su_37 please don't try to flame by digging old graves. Topic is how would PAF counter the Indian SU-30 MKI. stick to that please.

IMO only planes which can counter SU-30 MKI and are available to the PAF are Mirage-2000-9, Dassault Rafale and possibly the Eurofighter (don't know its availability to PAF). What do you guys think...can the Chinese J-10 counter SU-30s effectively or is it in a lower league than the Flanker??

 

[Su_37]

Su_37 please don't try to flame by digging old graves. Topic is how would PAF counter the Indian SU-30 MKI. stick to that please.

IMO only planes which can counter SU-30 MKI and are available to the PAF are Mirage-2000-9, Dassault Rafale and possibly the Eurofighter (don't know its availability to PAF). What do you guys think...can the Chinese J-10 counter SU-30s effectively or is it in a lower league than the Flanker??

Well my dear friend why you hate to admit mirror . I am just replying to those post . if you see clearly i replyed to both TIMMY and UMAIR. i think i should reserve that RIght to Reply .

 

[Red aRRow]

Timmy already had been reprimanded by the Administrator for being disrespectful to India's Prime minister...so there is no need to reply to any flaming posts. Just ignore them if somebody is trying to flame you.

Well coming back to the topic...The Su-30 is one of the most capable planes in the world today. PAF will have its hands full in case of a conflict. Best option seems to be the Rafale.

 

[corsair7772]

I thought abt the rafale but its so damn expensive we'll be on starvation diet by the time we get a hundred of those birds. The M-2000-9 is less expensive. Only problem is well have 2 beat the indians 2 it in acquiring this weapon system and that wont be easy.

Guess well have 2 stick 2 the J-10.... but i still havent lost hope!

 

[ajay_ijn]

It would be waste for PAF to send their Fighters to shoot down SU-30MKI
Becoz any fighter less than Typhoon or Rafale ,MKI will eat it alive.

I think PAF cannot afford costly fighters typhoon or Rafale.

MKI is not stealthy aircraft and would appear on RADAR.

A capable Medium Range SAM with a range of about 30kms with command guidance can provide defence against MKI.
The missile must be capable of high turn rates and EW resistant considering the fact that Su-30 is highly Maneuverable and had good EW systems.
I cannot say that it can surely counter shoot it down but It will provide good defence for PAF.

Worst of all is If IAF Su-30MKI are armed with Air Launched brahmos,It is a big trouble for PAF.
But for now only Indian Navy is planning MKI armed with brahmos.

 

[mysterious]

It would be waste for PAF to send their Fighters to shoot down SU-30MKI. Becoz any fighter less than Typhoon or Rafale ,MKI will eat it alive.

I can assure you there others that can fair up against a Su-30 MKI. F-16 Block 60 for one, is a good match for it to begin with. :smokingc:

 

[Pathfinder-X]

It would be waste for PAF to send their Fighters to shoot down SU-30MKI
Becoz any fighter less than Typhoon or Rafale ,MKI will eat it alive.

I think PAF cannot afford costly fighters typhoon or Rafale.

MKI is not stealthy aircraft and would appear on RADAR.

A capable Medium Range SAM with a range of about 30kms with command guidance can provide defence against MKI.
The missile must be capable of high turn rates and EW resistant considering the fact that Su-30 is highly Maneuverable and had good EW systems.
I cannot say that it can surely counter shoot it down but It will provide good defence for PAF.

Worst of all is If IAF Su-30MKI are armed with Air Launched brahmos,It is a big trouble for PAF.
But for now only Indian Navy is planning MKI armed with brahmos.

While it is true that the Su-30MKI is more advanced than any fighters in PAF inventory, you should note that air combat is not 1+1 calculation. There are many different factors which are involved.

PAF does have one of the best combat ready F-16 fleets in the world despite the sanction slapped on by U.S. On the other hand, several reports indicated that MKIs are in poor operational readiness and constantly needs Russian asistance in maintaining them. This directly determines how many sorties you can fly during a time of conflict and can have a tide-turning effect of the war.

Now I'm not saying PAF has the advantage which is obviously not the case, but I'm saying you need to take other factors into the equation. A single advance platform isn't going to win you a war.

 

[SABRE]

"How would PAF deal with the possible threat from indian Su-30mki?"

they cant.

basically they can create a minimum deterrant with the JF-17, if the SD-10 BVR missile becomes available.

In the future perhaps someone will wake up and consider the Rafale. that would be the ultimate choice.

I agree with ya on SD-10 BVR n creating minimum deterrance with JF-17 but we still cant side line the need of new jet.
Rafale is the best option tht has came up from alot evaluation. But we can not wait for the future. If we dnt make the move now there might be no future at all.