How Much Longer Does NATO Have?

turin

New Member
Please reread the post I referred to. Do you really think it makes sense to call NATO the most uneffective alliance in the world?

This would be good to know before one continues to discuss this matter seriously.
No, I dont think, its uneffective. Its also not effective. Because both of these statements depend on the context obviously and cannot be made in absolute terms. I think I understood, in what context JonMusser used that description. Your logic used in countering his claim however seemed extremely questionable to me, thats why I wrote what I wrote.

Obviously this boils down to the matter of purpose. NATO did serve a clear purpose when it was meant to coordinate military efforts in the region it was named for. Does it hold the same benefit these days, in regions defined more by the political interest of only some of its members (and I am not even talking about a majority here)? The whole ISAF-effort speaks for itself. Would NATO really not be able to field anything between 500,000 and a whopping million men, if national security really was at stake as it was during the Cold War in Europe. Yeah, there are matters of logistics and such, but clearly this is more or less a subject of political will. So what purpose does NATO serve as the defensive military pact it was meant to be, in todays geopolitical environment? There arent many I can see, but I look forward to input on that question.
 
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Firn

Active Member
No, I dont think, its uneffective. Its also not effective. Because both of these statements depend on the context obviously and cannot be made in absolute terms. I think I understood, in what context JonMusser used that description. Your logic used in countering his claim however seemed extremely questionable to me, thats why I wrote what I wrote.
.
Using my extremely questionable logic I would state that in the context of the political and military scope enshrined in the original treaty NATO has performed and performs superbly in what it was envisioned to do - protecting the vital interests - liberty, independence, democracy - of its member states in the specified key areas.

The geographical scope of the treaty was limited for some very good reasons. While everybody was in the same boat when it came to perceived threat of the Sovietunion against their homelands the interests almost naturally diverged when it came to the issues of the many colonies and oversea territories. Or do you think that for example Norway would have had no issues with sending soldiers to Indochina to fight alongside the French?

This is one of the intrinsic problem with modern western democratic nations forming a defensive alliance . It will be bloody hard to find a lasting consensus when it comes to fight a remote danger in a far away place over a long time. This is simply a hard political reality, be it 1949 or 2009.

Given that war is the continuation of politics with the intermixture of other means it do find it not in the least surprising that there are only so few troops in Afghanistan. On this voluntary mission NATO can only coordinate what it has been given. With the limited numbers deemed politically acceptable by the member states (the USA included!) and the voluntary nature of the participation this ability is of course restricted.



So what purposes has NATO right now?

First of all by a long shot the purpose it had in 1949: To protect the member states from a military threat against their vital heartland. This might sound unfashionable but it is the key purpose. And it certainly does not sound as old-fashioned to the Baltic states, to make an example. Perhaps one has to repeat this a couple of times, because it seems that the still very relevant main purpose has been forgotten by many.

The second one can be to use the existing structure to coordinate other military efforts by member states. Without the legal basis it is hard to avoid that the member states operate with different caveats or even operate outside the united efforts, like the USA does.


Summary:


Without common political goals it will be very hard to find a binding legal basis for non-vital military operations, and without a binding legal basis the military commitment is subject to the free play of the internal political forces of the member states. NATO's coordination can thus be helpful but only to a certain degree. Who doesn't take such elementar politcal realities into account seems to be a bit naive. Who does call NATO in consequence in earnest a corpse is very much so.

Who does call it to promote a specific (political?) agenda like the former Canadian general is of course not naive ;)


Firn



P.S: If you don't believe me when it comes to the Canadian General Hillier, read the article:

Hillier -- who had an unusually high public profile and was always happy to talk to the media -- also attacked the federal bureaucracy in Ottawa, saying it was jealous of the boost in defense spending that occurred under the Conservatives.

He also complained that officials working for Prime Minister Stephen Harper told him he should be making fewer public pronouncements. He ignored the advice.

Or only this part:

General Rick Hillier also said the 28-member alliance was "dominated by jealousies and small, vicious political battles" and bemoaned its "lack of cohesion, clarity and professionalism" at the start of the Afghan mission.

Hillier made the angry comments in a new book called "A Soldier First: Bullets, Bureaucrats and the Politics of War," which was purchased by Reuters Tuesday ahead of its scheduled publication date next week. Hiller stepped down as chief of the defense staff last year.
 
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kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The whole ISAF-effort speaks for itself. Would NATO really not be able to field anything between 500,000 and a whopping million men, if national security really was at stake as it was during the Cold War in Europe.
Do we really want to start the silly number crunching?

The sustainable target strength of NATO ground forces was 488,000 men until last year (raised to 610,000 / 25% on demand of the USA more recently). Including the ARNG, but not the USMC.
That 488,000 figure includes 184,000 men from North America, 158,000 men from the WEU, 56,000 men from exWarPac members and 90,000 men from the other NATO members, primarily Turkey.

Deployed in ISAF are 56,300 men from NATO. In comparison to the above numbers, North America reaches 18%, the WEU reaches 13%, the exWarPac members reach 3% and other NATO members reach 2%.

If we compare that above 488,000 figure to the population numbers (sort of like the "responsibility" within NATO), the distribution would btw be 189,000 from both North America and WEU each, and 55,000 from the other two groups each. In that sense, North America reaches 17%, the WEU 11%, exWarPac and others 3% each.

Of course then we'd have to apply the same thing to other missions as well. Just taking together the three "closer to home" missions KFOR, Althea and UNIFIL, we have in the same calculation North America with 0.5%, the WEU with 8.8%, exWarPac with 4.2% and others with 2.0%. Although with UNIFIL, we'd have to reduce that a bit considering there's naval forces involved. Let's say 8.5% total for WEU in ground forces.
Too lazy to look up the Iraq numbers to give NA its advantage back ;)
 

swerve

Super Moderator
So what purposes has NATO right now?

First of all by a long shot the purpose it had in 1949: To protect the member states from a military threat against their vital heartland. This might sound unfashionable but it is the key purpose. And it certainly does not sound as old-fashioned to the Baltic states, to make an example. Perhaps one has to repeat this a couple of times, because it seems that the still very relevant main purpose has been forgotten by many.
Absolutely right. The Balts look at Georgia, shudder, & give thanks to the politicians who got them into NATO.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Absolutely right. The Balts look at Georgia, shudder, & give thanks to the politicians who got them into NATO.
That's the critical element though. The Soviet threat was the geopolitical glue that bound NATO together, without it the whole alliance not only looses purpose but cohesion. If there is a disparity in threat you will have a disparity in commitment, and that spells death for a collective defence alliance. That’s why I personally think NATO will become less and less relevant in the next 20 years. Russia may be on the rebound but it will never have the kind of military power the Soviet Union possessed. In the 1950’s all of Europe faced the threat of Soviet occupation, and the Americans faced the loss of global position, now you have a threat in Eastern Europe that is not a feasible threat to the major European powers. The real question is will the Germans or the French risk another prolonged confrontation with Moscow over the Ukraine, Georgia or Belorussia? Even a hegemonic Russia in control of the former soviet union is not going to be a real threat to Europe, a and if there is any doubt in the commitment of the lager European powers to the defence of far eastern Europe the alliance is finished. Therefore the question arises whether NATO is the best tool to address the problem posed by Russia in the next 30 years, or will the nations who are directly threatened by Russia replace NATO with an alliance system backed by the US?

In my opinion NATO was a solution to a specific problem, and without any problem the status quo remains untested. A new challenge requires a new solution, and NATO is not designed to address the Russian issue in 2030. If one major power wavers the whole structure will fail, and there is a significant divergence of geopolitical interest happening amongst the alliances major powers right now. Therefore I think the Alliance’s days are numbered.
 
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The Swordman

New Member
NATO is not that bad

IMHO NATO should be enhanced, maybe extended geographically to meet the reality after the cold war era. Purposes of coordination, organization and self defence are not obsolete.

What is to change is the european approach to the defence problems. EU army, air force and navy are to be the next goals for the 27 members and the next years are to be considered critical.
In the politics EU will have its first president next year, same will happen for the foreign affairs minister.
For Germany and Italy there is another problem. Their constitutional laws forbid war and missions like Afghanistan are quite close to the limit.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Their constitutional laws forbid war and missions like Afghanistan are quite close to the limit.
Naaah. The German government can always claim that it developed from an article 5 case, which would make it constitutional. Besides, we already led unconstitutional wars. Remember '99?
 

Sampanviking

Banned Member
I think too many posters either underestimate or wholly fail to appreciate the challenge faced by NATO today.

TO call NATO a Cold War Institution is a being charitable, it is really a post WW2 Institution envisaged and established in a vision of the world that existed in the 1940's. It is purely a defensive alliance of Soverign States and defined by the 1940's and has no presence beyond military based security.

In the meantime, the world has moved on to a pattern of political blocks/unions in which security is an integral factor of political and economic union. NATO is therefore a one dimensional institution competing in a multidimensional environment. If it cannot evolve it will die as it will simply be unable to keep up with organisations able to take for more complex decisions in a far simpler and quicker way.
 

The Swordman

New Member
War ?

Naaah. The German government can always claim that it developed from an article 5 case, which would make it constitutional. Besides, we already led unconstitutional wars. Remember '99?

Of course I do remeber '99, not to mention '91 (Gulf War I). In Italy military intervention is a risky argument when it come into political discussion and everyday life. From 1982 (Lebanon) italian troops partecipated in international peacekeeping missions, sharing the burden of money cost and dead guys.
Problem is that article 5 of NATO and article 11 of italian constitution do not collide, NATO missions outside article 5 do.
When Yugoslavia falled into pieces and NATO started bombing Serbia, italian air force strikes were to be considered war missions? Defending ourselves in south Lebanon today is OK, no problem, but what will happen if Hezbollah and Israel start another war?
 

Firn

Active Member
A view from the NATO secretary

The Future of the Atlantic Alliance

Speech by NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer at Chatham House, LOndon, UK

Sir Kevin [Tebbit],
Ladies and Gentlemen,

In a week’s time, I will leave my job as Secretary General of NATO. The five-and-a-half years that I have had the privilege to lead the Alliance have been immensely rewarding. And I will step down with considerable nostalgia.

But I did not come to Chatham House to indulge in regrets. Anyone who has held this unique position for such a long period, and who has had to deal with so many issues and challenges, would want to use their final weeks in office to contemplate what he has been able to achieve, and which thoughts they would wish to pass on to their successor.

So the first question that must be faced is inevitably: in what shape am I leaving the organisation? How did it look on the day I took over, and have I been able to strengthen it?

Here I believe that I can give a positive answer. When I took over in January 2004 the Atlantic Alliance was badly bruised from the political fallout of the Iraq war. There was also considerable uncertainty about NATO’s future as a viable transatlantic framework. Many pundits spoke of NATO becoming a mere “toolbox”, and future missions being driven by “coalitions of the willing”. There were predictions of a new era of selective American multilateralism, with NATO being sidelined by shifting country groupings. And in several quarters on this side of the Atlantic, there was equally radical talk about Europe needing to be a “counterweight” to the United States.

Today, such loose talk has disappeared. There is no serious political force on either side of the Atlantic that favours NATO's dissolution. After an interval of nearly half a century, France has returned to the Alliance’s integrated military structure. We have just taken in two new members – Albania and Croatia – and several more countries are knocking on our door. We increasingly work with the rest of the world, and the rest of the world increasingly wants to work with us. In short, NATO is widely accepted as an essential element of the European and indeed, international security order.

NATO today – 60 years after its creation -- is busier than ever. We are being called upon to undertake more and more missions and operations, and to turn our attention not just to immediate threats but also to longer term challenges such as cyber attacks, disruptions in our energy supply and vital lines of communication, piracy and the inevitable security implications of climate change.

If this would be the whole story, I could end my speech right here – which would significantly increase my chances of getting nice applause from this audience for successful management of NATO. But of course, the story doesn’t end here. For it is precisely the growing demands that are being made of NATO that are causing a dangerous mismatch: we are trying to develop a 21st century Alliance, but we do so with a 20th century mindset.

I believe that we have a generally sound intellectual understanding of the new security challenges. Yet our understanding of the very concept of alliance – of how an alliance works and what it can achieve in meeting these challenges – has not kept pace. Whether we admit it or not, we still expect NATO to function the way it did in the Cold War: a unified threat assessment, military capabilities perfectly tailored to the threat, and shared vital interests that ensure watertight solidarity if the worst should ever happen.

Alas, this is not how things work nowadays – and the last few weeks have given us ample indication of this. Our former Supreme Allied Commander, General Craddock, for example, has taken the Allies to task for agreeing politically to undertake a mission, but then refusing to resource it accordingly. He recommends that NATO should only take on a job if it has the means to succeed – or, put another way, that NATO should provide the resources it needs to do the jobs it must do.

Now, let me be clear: I know how those words resonate here in the UK these days. This country has suffered a tragic period, and I would like, on behalf of NATO, but also myself personally, to express condolences to the loved ones of those brave servicemen from the UK armed forces, who have paid the ultimate price.

It is not my job to wade into a national debate, and I won’t do it here. But let me say just a few things. First, UK forces are doing a critical job, and they are doing it well I’ve seen them in the field myself, many times. Let no one call into question their effectiveness.

My second point is that they are part of a team. If one reads any national press, you could be forgiven for thinking that your forces were fighting in Afghanistan alone. But they are not. They are part of a team. 14 NATO nations are fighting in the South of Afghanistan, alongside their British colleagues, along with Afghan forces. Hundreds of NATO soldiers from other countries have also lost their lives – which is a sad, but real, measure of shared sacrifice.

We can debate the right numbers of helicopters of troops to have in Afghanistan - and we should. This is not an easy operation, and it needs public debate and public support. But to me, there can be no serious debate about the necessity or the legitimacy of this mission. If we were to walk away, Afghanistan would fall to the Taliban, with devastating effect for the people there – women in particular. Pakistan would suffer the consequences, with all that that implies for international security. Central Asia would see extremism spread. Al Qaida would have a free run again, and their terrorist ambitions are global.

This is not conjecture. This is fact. Those who argue otherwise – who say we can defend against terrorism from home – are simply burying their heads in the sand. That is not the way the world is anymore. As my predecessor, Lord Robertson, used to say, either we go to Afghanistan or Afghanistan will come to us. His dictum remains as valid as ever.

We must succeed in what we have set out to do: help the Afghans build a country that can secure itself, for our benefit as much as theirs. And I have confidence that the people of the UK understand this, despite the recent sacrifices.

Afghanistan is just one example of a broad range of issues where we cannot afford not to engage – where we must rise to the occasion, despite scarce resources. But how can we do this? Well, first and foremost, by acknowledging – as hard as it may be – that the new security environment poses an entirely different set of challenges for our Alliance.

Let us be honest: In the Cold War, the threat we faced was both visible and measurable, and our responses were largely institutionalised. Alliance solidarity was near-automatic. Our static pre-positioned force posture left no room for nations to opt out.

By contrast, many of today’s challenges are regional in nature and do not affect all Allies in quite the same way. Many challenges also do not lend themselves to purely military solutions. And while some challenges require instant, perhaps even preventive action, others require long-term, costly and risky engagement far away from our own borders.

This is an entirely new ballgame – and it touches upon the very essence of our Alliance. Because solidarity is now a much more active concept. During the Cold War, it was about sharing a certain degree of risk. Today, however, it implies the willingness to accept sacrifice and share burdens – and the degree of solidarity that a nation wants to render is very much at its own discretion. A nation’s contribution is now far more a function of its domestic setting, its constitutional reality and its military culture. The true test of our Alliance, therefore, lies in its ability to convince Allies to show the necessary solidarity and to increase their willingness to share burdens equitably.

Another truth of the new security environment is that deterrence, the concept of avoiding conflict by displaying force rather than actually using it, is increasingly unworkable. To be sure, deterrence will continue to apply to relations among states. But you cannot deter civil wars or suicide terrorists, nor can you deter states from collapsing. Such challenges require long-term engagements, and above all, with no guarantee of success.

Any such missions have to be sustained against a public opinion that demands that something “be done” – and quickly – yet whose support can fade once the engagement turns out to be more difficult than expected. Moreover, we must contend with a widespread popular sentiment according to which the use of force always constitutes a failure of politics rather than a necessary tool in the toolbox.

Another truth of the new strategic environment is that NATO can no longer be a solo-player. Quite the contrary. True success in Afghanistan requires civil reconstruction – something which NATO cannot provide, but which others must supply. If these other actors do not engage, NATO cannot truly succeed either. To put it bluntly: NATO’s success depends increasingly on factors which lie outside the Alliance's own control.

These are the hard realities of the 21st century strategic environment. As I just said, they go to the very essence of what this Alliance is about. They call for a new understanding of solidarity among the Allies. And they also call for new forms of cooperation between the Alliance and the wider world.

So this brings us to the all important question: Can we manage? Can we achieve a new understanding of Alliance solidarity in the 21st century? And will we be able to connect NATO with the broader international framework of institutions and nations?

After five-and-and-a-half years at the helm of NATO, my answer to these questions is clear: we are not yet there, but we are on the right track. If we push NATO’s agenda energetically forward, we will achieve our aim: a new NATO for a new century. Specifically, I see six key areas in which we need to make progress. Let me very briefly touch upon each of them.

First, one of my own dictums ever since I took office, we must continue to broaden the political dialogue among the Allies. As I have noted, today’s security environment can divide us just as well as it can unite us. That is why we need a more proactive discussion in NATO on emerging issues – for example energy security, nuclear proliferation, climate change. This is not about turning NATO into a talking shop. But debate is a precondition for building – and sustaining – the consensus that is necessary for common action.

Second, we need to make further progress in uniting all major international institutions and NGOs in a “Comprehensive Approach” to today’s security challenges. The NATO-UN Declaration which I signed with Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon last September has certainly sent the right signal. I believe NATO should also develop closer contacts with the Arab League, the Organisation of the Islamic Conference – and indeed the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation. But what is truly crucial for any successful “Comprehensive Approach” is that we finally manage to better combine the complementary assets of NATO and the EU.

Third, we must continue to develop more flexible and deployable forces. Transforming static Cold War capabilities into expeditionary forces is immensely difficult. The fact is that every country in the Alliance, not just the UK with its long expeditionary tradition, now has a debate about lacking equipment. The financial crisis is clearly taking its toll, and we need more imaginative approaches when it comes to funding capabilities. To my mind, we have been much too timid in exploring such new approaches.

Still, I see NATO on the right track. Even those Allies which are more concerned about Article 5 contingencies than expeditionary engagements acknowledge that it does not make sense to maintain forces solely for the defence of one’s national territory. So we are developing forces that can do both – defend Alliance territory and take on stabilisation tasks well away from our own borders.

My fourth point: We must get the NATO-Russia relationship back on track. Russia’s recent assertiveness has raised genuine security concerns, particularly among NATO’s eastern-most Allies. It has also led some to question the future of NATO enlargement as a benign means of consolidating Europe. But most importantly, it has exposed a lack of Allied unity vis-à-vis Russia.

This is an untenable situation – for NATO, but also for Russia. Because despite all our disagreements we need each other more than we sometimes dare to admit. I predict that as the new security environment unfolds, the number of common interests will grow. This will not eliminate our disagreements on, say, enlargement, CFE, Georgia. But I believe that we can get beyond the on-off nature of the NATO-Russia relationship.

My fifth point: keep developing global partnerships. Australian or New Zealand troops or Japanese funds for Afghanistan are most welcome and play a hugely valuable part in ISAF’s effort. Let us not squander such valuable contributions by a false debate about a “global NATO”. Let us simply continue to develop the necessary structures for non-members, wherever they may be located, to associate themselves – politically or even militarily – with NATO-led missions and operations. When we face global challenges, it makes eminent sense to have global partners to help us meet those challenges.

This brings me to my last point, which is to write a new NATO Strategic Concept. Over the past decade, NATO has been busy adapting to rapid change. Indeed, we were so preoccupied with managing our operations that we sometimes ran the risk of missing the bigger picture. We have allowed NATO to evolve in many different directions but without producing a 21st century mission statement that makes it clear to our publics why they still need NATO and what it offers that other organisations or security frameworks do not. And as a result, many people understand what NATO does -- but they don’t understand how this relates to their immediate security interests.

A new Strategic Concept will provide NATO’s transformation with the broad political context that it needs – not just for our publics, but for the Allies as well. That is why I have been championing such a project for some time, and why I was glad to see NATO’s 60th Anniversary Summit in April giving the green light for it. Of course, the successful conclusion of this project will fall to my successor, Anders Fogh Rasmussen. But the process is well on track.

A new Strategic Concept will be an indispensable piece of the puzzle of a new, more effective NATO. But let us be perfectly clear: by no means will a piece of paper “solve” NATO’s problems.

For NATO to be truly successful, we need political elites and the general public in all the Alliance’s member nations to realise that the meaning of security – and the means to provide security – have changed irreversibly.

As much as we may yearn for the easier days of the past, when the main purpose of our military forces was not to be used, we should realise that today, they must be used. As much as we may long for the near-perfect security of Cold War deterrence, we must accept that security today requires engagement in far away places – engagement that is dangerous, expensive and with no guarantee of success. In short, security in today’s globalised world is much more demanding to achieve, and yet it is far less perfect.

This is a message that many people do not want to hear – and that many governments therefore do not want to convey. But they must. As long as we cling to the illusion that globalisation is just an economic phenomenon without any security implications, we remain vulnerable. And as long as we make ourselves believe that missions like Afghanistan are not really essential to our security, or that using military force is an admission of political failure, we will remain out of touch with reality.

We cannot afford to approach 21st century challenges with such a 20th century mindset. We must find a new understanding of Allied security – and Allied solidarity – in the age of globalisation.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

When he was asked what constituted the greatest challenge for a statesman, British Prime Minster Harold Macmillan responded: “events, my dear boy, events.” Macmillan’s quip explains perfectly well why not even a well-crafted Strategic Concept will guarantee NATO’s continued success. After all, “events” have the nasty habit of occurring unplanned and unexpected.

We have had our share of examples. Allies fundamentally disagreed over the war on Iraq, yet today NATO is training Iraqi security forces. No one considers NATO to be a humanitarian relief organisation, and yet we provided vital support after a devastating earthquake hit Pakistan in the autumn of 2005. Allies may have different views on a NATO role in Africa, and yet we acted when the African Union asked for logistical support in the Darfur crisis. And while the specific NATO role in responding to new challenges, such as energy security or piracy, is not yet perfectly defined, it requires little imagination to predict that NATO will play its part.

Why? Because NATO is unique. Nowhere else on the globe does there exist a group of nations with such a strong sense of belonging together, with a common vision of a just political order, and with shared values. And there is no other group of nations that is equally ready, willing and able to uphold these values when they are under threat.

This, then, is my key message for my successor: Let us do everything in our power to keep this Alliance in good shape. As Winston Churchill has reminded us, working with Allies can be tedious and frustrating, yet the end result is superior to anything we could ever achieve on our own. This is a timeless observation. And this is why NATO is a timeless Alliance.

Thank you.

I think this is a good addition to this topic. He mirrors most of my thoughts, but we disagree when it comes to some points. I will take them on later. Anyway I tried to highlight his most relevant points for this discussion.


Firn
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
I think that the long term prospect of NATO is dependent on NATO's abillity to be the fora in which future european millitary integration takes place. If so NATO will be the obvious body in which f.ex. US-Euro (the whole gang or individual countries) millitary coorperation takes place. Which f.ex. could be large scale international operations.
If not, NATO will be reduced to a talking club in which diplomates and high ranking officers exchange views.

One changing variable is european millitary integration, this process will, imho, be the most significant future security related process in this region of the world and will parrallel the growing political and economical strength of the european project. Either NATO will be in the heart of this or it will become irrelevant.
Another one is how the US chooses to handle this european security integration, if the US chooses to be constructive, I think NATO has a good chance, if we see a continuation of f.ex. Rumsfield's "old and new europe" ideas, NATO will loose it's relevance.
 

DEFENCEMASTER05

New Member
Nato

NATO really doesn't exist now with the uprising of the European Union, the European Union will be one huge military force and the major superpower. The United States will start to crumble soon, and will need it's friends like Australia and New Zealand to step up more and be counted in this world of ours. The rising of China and India has placed a lot of pressure on the Indian and Pacific regions. The United States will become the third most powerful military force in the world by 2020, the European Union will be the most powerful military force followed by China, and Russia will be a part of the European Union.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
NATO really doesn't exist now with the uprising of the European Union, the European Union will be one huge military force and the major superpower. The United States will start to crumble soon, and will need it's friends like Australia and New Zealand to step up more and be counted in this world of ours. The rising of China and India has placed a lot of pressure on the Indian and Pacific regions. The United States will become the third most powerful military force in the world by 2020, the European Union will be the most powerful military force followed by China, and Russia will be a part of the European Union.
If the US military 'crumbles' to the point where NZ has to step-up and fill the void we are in deep, deep sh*t! The US still spends more on defence than the rest of NATO, Russia and China but together. I can't see its current batch of 10-12 Carrier battle groups being usurped anytime soon, have you actually seen the capabilities of just one of their planned next generation supercarriers?

Interestingly a senior Italian Minister today called for a fully integrated European Army and Navy now the Lisbon treaty has been ratified. Sounds great in theory, but who will lead it, and how do we deal with all those ridiculous caveats?
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
NATO really doesn't exist now with the uprising of the European Union, the European Union will be one huge military force and the major superpower. The United States will start to crumble soon, and will need it's friends like Australia and New Zealand to step up more and be counted in this world of ours. The rising of China and India has placed a lot of pressure on the Indian and Pacific regions. The United States will become the third most powerful military force in the world by 2020, the European Union will be the most powerful military force followed by China, and Russia will be a part of the European Union.
That's only 11 years away, how can you seriously propose any of these powers will attain military superiority over the United States in that timeframe? Have you seen the size of the US defence budget? Their expeditionary capability, and the associated logistics chain? The technology gap between their rivals and themselves?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
That's the critical element though. The Soviet threat was the geopolitical glue that bound NATO together, without it the whole alliance not only looses purpose but cohesion. If there is a disparity in threat you will have a disparity in commitment, and that spells death for a collective defence alliance. That’s why I personally think NATO will become less and less relevant in the next 20 years. Russia may be on the rebound but it will never have the kind of military power the Soviet Union possessed. In the 1950’s all of Europe faced the threat of Soviet occupation, and the Americans faced the loss of global position, now you have a threat in Eastern Europe that is not a feasible threat to the major European powers. The real question is will the Germans or the French risk another prolonged confrontation with Moscow over the Ukraine, Georgia or Belorussia? Even a hegemonic Russia in control of the former soviet union is not going to be a real threat to Europe, a and if there is any doubt in the commitment of the lager European powers to the defence of far eastern Europe the alliance is finished.
You hit the nail on the head. I think there is a renewed fear of Russian influence in the Baltics, and partially in Poland. Less so in the other ex-WarPac. But there is a lack of understanding from France, Germany, Italy, etc. At the beginning of the Georgian War, Merkel made a comment along the lines of "I'm tired of Georgia". France offered to broker a peace treaty. The old NATO was perfectly willing to stand by and blow it off. They did not think in the geo-political terms of growing Russian influence, because to them it was only a relatively minor come back in the post-Soviet space. To the Baltics, and partially Poland, it was however a much more real issue.

The danger I think lies in the fact that current Kremlin leadership understands this very well. The recent Ladoga-2009 and Zapad-2009 exercises were directed at just that type of scenario. A conflict between a limited east-european NATO contingent, and Russia and Belarus. I suspect that if the current trends continue, NATO will not be able to as effectively counteract a much weaker Russia, as it was with the USSR. Once the ideology leaves the conflict space, and all we have is pragmatism, Germany remembers that they have huge projects with Russia, and that they all need natural gas. Italy has shares in South Stream. And France has joint aero-space projects with Russia, and after all who gives a crap about Riga?

As US backed security guarantee is possible, but the problem is that for example Ukraine can't even get it's act together politically to make such a decision possible. Which leaves me wondering who this agreement would encompass, other then Poland and the Baltics? Not to mention recently the US turned down the Poles request for troop presence.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
One could also argue that these exercises had the limited scope because of Russia being fully aware that taking on the full NATO forces is only possible with a fair amount of nuclear weapons.
Exercises tend to be friendly for the home force.
 

Firn

Active Member
You hit the nail on the head. I think there is a renewed fear of Russian influence in the Baltics, and partially in Poland. Less so in the other ex-WarPac. But there is a lack of understanding from France, Germany, Italy, etc. At the beginning of the Georgian War, Merkel made a comment along the lines of "I'm tired of Georgia". France offered to broker a peace treaty. The old NATO was perfectly willing to stand by and blow it off. They did not think in the geo-political terms of growing Russian influence, because to them it was only a relatively minor come back in the post-Soviet space. To the Baltics, and partially Poland, it was however a much more real issue.

The danger I think lies in the fact that current Kremlin leadership understands this very well. The recent Ladoga-2009 and Zapad-2009 exercises were directed at just that type of scenario. A conflict between a limited east-european NATO contingent, and Russia and Belarus. I suspect that if the current trends continue, NATO will not be able to as effectively counteract a much weaker Russia, as it was with the USSR. Once the ideology leaves the conflict space, and all we have is pragmatism, Germany remembers that they have huge projects with Russia, and that they all need natural gas. Italy has shares in South Stream. And France has joint aero-space projects with Russia, and after all who gives a crap about Riga?

As US backed security guarantee is possible, but the problem is that for example Ukraine can't even get it's act together politically to make such a decision possible. Which leaves me wondering who this agreement would encompass, other then Poland and the Baltics? Not to mention recently the US turned down the Poles request for troop presence.
I think you missed the most important point in your good comment. There was no binding treaty or even political consensus regarding Georgia. The poltical leaders had all the room they wanted and given how controversial the conflict initiated by Georgia itself was - read the latest EU report - opinions diverged a lot. In the end the NATO members came up with some sort of agreement, calling Russia to stop the advance and to retreat.

But the point is that here politics could move very freely and uncoordinated because it was not an attack on a NATO member . Russia should be strongly aware that things are completely different when there is a conflict with a NATO country. In this case there is little political wiggle room with a lot of long prepared coordinated automatisms involved. In this case internal politics would have to very forcefully act against a strong coordinated (military) action sanctioned by the majority to keep only the own state out. In the Georgian conflict there were some loud voices for a direct involvement, but they lacked a legal basis, an alliance, interlocking preparations and were a small minority. There are completely different cases and Russia should be, as I said, very aware of that if it doesn't want to play with fire.


Firn

P.S: Note that as the poltical actors are mostly aware of this there is an struggle within the alliance on how to continue the expansion of the alliance. And that is also why Russia is rather desperate on avoiding NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Feanor said:
Once the ideology leaves the conflict space, and all we have is pragmatism, Germany remembers that they have huge projects with Russia, and that they all need natural gas. Italy has shares in South Stream. And France has joint aero-space projects with Russia, and after all who gives a crap about Riga?
... Germany also runs the Baltic Air Policing mission right now, to be taken over by France next year. And without Germany donating leftovers, Latvia and Lithuania would have foot-mounted line infantry pretty much.

As for the project side... it's not only France that has joint aero-space projects with Russia. Everyone does, worldwide.

With regard to security guarantees... it's not like ex-WarPac states couldn't spend a bit more on defence. The 9 ex-WarPac NATO members have 70% the population of Russia, and nearly 80% the GDP.
Adenauer said in 1952: "In light of the Russian expansionist politics there is only one solution: Making us strong enough for Russia to recognize that any attack on us would be a risk to Russia itself." Sure, it's not the 50s anymore, but if the Eastern-European states see themselves in such a situation, they might want to do something about it themselves.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Adenauer said in 1952: "In light of the Russian expansionist politics there is only one solution: Making us strong enough for Russia to recognize that any attack on us would be a risk to Russia itself." Sure, it's not the 50s anymore, but if the Eastern-European states see themselves in such a situation, they might want to do something about it themselves.
Agreed. They could easily make it enough of a risk that Russia could not consider military action. Even if it is by picking up military equipment second hand to make their money go further.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Firn you raise a very good point. However what if the actions are initiated by the Baltic states or Poland? I am not familiar with the exact requirements. Additionally it's always possible to send token support, to fullfill formal obligations, without actually commiting to a large scale conflict. Finally if the whole conflict only takes a few days, there may not be enough time for an adequate response. How long would it take for MMD and LMD forces to run through the Baltics? And if this happened would NATO go all out or first seek a diplomatic solution of some sort?

I suspect the Kremlin leadership may choose to believe the latter. That's why I said there is a danger there.

Kato you're absolutely right. But the point is that the ex-WarPac joined NATO so that they wouldn't have to spend on their own defence. I think they've made that clear. They want more powerful states to babysit them.
 
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