Gripen demonstrator rolled out

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Dr Freud

New Member
Yes, but such a small thing as to re-position landing gear and gain 40% internal fuel.
It doesnt hurt to exeed a requirement, especially if its a matter of re-positioning. Even if Sweden dont need long range for attack, endurance on cap with enuff fuel for a dash is never wrong.
 

JohanGrön

New Member
Don't forget that you have to haul around all the extra fuel aswell... resulting in degraded performance!

It's not only a plus with more fuel capacity (ceteris paribus). You would need to add more thrust to compensate it and this only to an extent.

Resulting in an entirely new aeroplane than you started out with. It's not something you do unless it's required.
 
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Next_Generation

New Member
hey.

its quite funny to read, about all the creativity to misscredit the gripen plattform. over and over againt.

first, it had to small legs, not enough payload. and so on.
and now when those things are fixed, in the Gripen NG,

they´re desperate to find something els to talk down the plattform, its like Sweden just cant make a supreme fighter. because its sweden and not america. :)

regarding the radar, its noway near to be finished yet. and i´ve a hard time to believe, SAAB goes for the second best.

i bet, when NG enter service aruond 2015, it will not be a second hand degraded less technology version of the AESA. compared to F-35
the technology is there, they just need to adapt it.

but its just my view, and honestly im not an expert on radar systems but SAAB/Ericsson aint idiots either.

:)
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
hey.

its quite funny to read, about all the creativity to misscredit the gripen plattform. over and over againt.

first, it had to small legs, not enough payload. and so on.
and now when those things are fixed, in the Gripen NG,

they´re desperate to find something els to talk down the plattform, its like Sweden just cant make a supreme fighter. because its sweden and not america. :)
I think most people are astounded that a nation as small as sweeden can produce a fighter as capable as Gripen, and it is a very capable platform. But when the Sweedish fanboys come out of the woodwork claiming that its comperable (or even better in some cases) than a 5th gen platform such as the F-35 then some members tend to get a bit narky, mainly because their arguments are rarely unbiased and logical. ;)

regarding the radar, its noway near to be finished yet. and i´ve a hard time to believe, SAAB goes for the second best.
Its actually quite simple:

1) Maturity: The US have fielded 2 generations of operational AESA's on fighters as we type, such as the AN/APG-63 (v)2 a "2nd gen" AESA (1st gen, but they count PESA's), and the AN/APG-63 (v)3, AN/APG-77 & AN/APG-79 "3rd gen" AESA's, which are the most capable fighter radars operational anyware. How many fighter AESA's have SAAB/Ericson deployed to date? Sure the Erieye system means they have some experiance with AESA's, but no were near the body of experiance accumulated by the US. Therefore US AESA technology is significantly more mature than Sweedish AESA tech.

2) Software development: AESA's need hideously complex software simply to operate, however the more advanced functions like SAR mapping, communications or ECM employment need software that is an order of magnitude more complicated than a baseline operating code. The US is way ahead of the game on this one, they're allready fielding some of these technologies now.

3) R&D $$$: This one should be self explanitary. More money means more people, more equipment, more time.

i bet, when NG enter service aruond 2015, it will not be a second hand degraded less technology version of the AESA. compared to F-35
the technology is there, they just need to adapt it.
No, for the most part they need to develop the technology themselves, with less money, less experiance and arguably less expertise, and then make up a 10 year gap while the US does nothing in terms of AESA development.

but its just my view, and honestly im not an expert on radar systems but SAAB/Ericsson aint idiots either.
So you think anyone who can not produce an AN/APG-81 in the same timeframe as LM are idiots? What logic is that based on my friend? Doesn't sound like any to me.
 

guppy

New Member
hey.

its quite funny to read, about all the creativity to misscredit the gripen plattform. over and over againt.

first, it had to small legs, not enough payload. and so on.
and now when those things are fixed, in the Gripen NG,

they´re desperate to find something els to talk down the plattform, its like Sweden just cant make a supreme fighter. because its sweden and not america. :)

regarding the radar, its noway near to be finished yet. and i´ve a hard time to believe, SAAB goes for the second best.

i bet, when NG enter service aruond 2015, it will not be a second hand degraded less technology version of the AESA. compared to F-35
the technology is there, they just need to adapt it.

but its just my view, and honestly im not an expert on radar systems but SAAB/Ericsson aint idiots either.

:)
Hi,

IMHO, the Gripen airframe itself is currently only 3.5 generation. But it is one of my favorite weapon systems. You must remember that nobody fights in a vacuum and the swedish has proven themselves to be a force to be reckoned with. If you look back during the Cold War, the Soviet's preferred method of defeating the Swedish Air Force was reportedly to assassinate the pilots at home. That speaks a lot about the capability of the Swedish Air Force.

But then let's look at why the Gripen weapon system (not airframe) is so effective. First look at the support from SAAB. It was reported in one magazine (can't remember which), that they have software updates every 2 months. That, in my books, is incredible. I don't think that there are any other airframe in the world that receives so many regular software updates. This speaks volumes of the support capability and responsiveness of SAAB to fix software problems and provide progressive capability updates.

Next, the aircraft was meant to operate in tandem with the Erieye. Look at Thailand buying both systems together. They should actually be looked upon as almost a single weapon system. C2 systems like the US E-3 are good, but they are largely "immobile" and support a great deal of other combat operations and C2 functions. It seems to me that the Erieye was integrated with the Gripen, and that in itself is amazing, not to mention that there are probably other capabilities that the union will bring. Which other company has implemented something similar? Which other airborne system is so integrated?

So, the Gripen weapon system is very capable. But in its current form which was designed to meet Swedish Air Force requirements, it is not suitable for all. It is unlikely the airframe and subcomponents will reach the level of capability of the F-35 or F-22 based on scalability. However, from a system level perspective, they can definitely hold their own.

cheers

guppy
 

Totoro

New Member
Brazil, Croatia, Denmark, India, the Netherlands, Norway, Romania and Switzerland

Well, out of the listed countries, only one or two could actually buy gripen in the next 18 months. We already know Norway opted for f-35. Netherlands is bound to do the same, they've been avid jsf supporters. Brazil and India's needs seem to be for a plane in a somewhat larger class. Croatia's economic woes recently caused their plan for the mig replacement to be postponed until 2012 or so. That leaves the swiss, romania and denmark. Personally, being a member of jsf consortium and f16 user, i see denmark going for f35, just like norway did. Concerning Romania, there was much more talk of f16 purchases than anything else. Though, granted, Gripen does have a decent shot there.

So the only country i see buying gripens is switzerland. I just dont know if it will be one-for-one replacement of their f-5s or will the ordered gripens be just a token number, a squadron or so.
 

wimpymouse

Banned Member
Brazil, Croatia, Denmark, India, the Netherlands, Norway, Romania and Switzerland

Well, out of the listed countries, only one or two could actually buy gripen in the next 18 months. We already know Norway opted for f-35. Netherlands is bound to do the same, they've been avid jsf supporters. Brazil and India's needs seem to be for a plane in a somewhat larger class. Croatia's economic woes recently caused their plan for the mig replacement to be postponed until 2012 or so. That leaves the swiss, romania and denmark. Personally, being a member of jsf consortium and f16 user, i see denmark going for f35, just like norway did. Concerning Romania, there was much more talk of f16 purchases than anything else. Though, granted, Gripen does have a decent shot there.

So the only country i see buying gripens is switzerland. I just dont know if it will be one-for-one replacement of their f-5s or will the ordered gripens be just a token number, a squadron or so.
Interesting, I didin't know this much, but yeah, Switzerland seems bagged. Personally I hope and see possible, with the little knowledge I have, that Brazil, Netherlands and Denmark could opt for Gripen.

But are you saying that Denmark (and the Neterlands too?) will opt for JSF out of political reasons than material, just like Norway did?
 

Runi_dk

New Member
Interesting, I didin't know this much, but yeah, Switzerland seems bagged. Personally I hope and see possible, with the little knowledge I have, that Brazil, Netherlands and Denmark could opt for Gripen.

But are you saying that Denmark (and the Neterlands too?) will opt for JSF out of political reasons than material, just like Norway did?
JSF has already been chosen for the Netherlands.

Denmark will likely chose JSF, mostly because of politcal reasons and because Norway and Netherlands also went for JSF.

It is also a great benefit when your "training freinds" have the same plane.
 

wimpymouse

Banned Member
JSF has already been chosen for the Netherlands.

Denmark will likely chose JSF, mostly because of politcal reasons and because Norway and Netherlands also went for JSF.

It is also a great benefit when your "training freinds" have the same plane.
OK, cheers.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
But are you saying that Denmark (and the Neterlands too?) will opt for JSF out of political reasons than material, just like Norway did?
Norway and Netherlands picked it for capability reasons. Their responses have been pretty clear on that.

Apart from the Danish version of Kopp/Goon the professional serving pilots with the Danish AF have been persistent in their belief as well.

The partners were all in Brussels a month ago and the Danes certainly weren't even remotely considering the Gripen. If Gripen is chosen it will be political, not technical as they also have made their opinions clear.
 

Dalregementet

New Member
Brazil, Croatia, Denmark, India, the Netherlands, Norway, Romania and Switzerland

Well, out of the listed countries, only one or two could actually buy gripen in the next 18 months. We already know Norway opted for f-35. Netherlands is bound to do the same, they've been avid jsf supporters. Brazil and India's needs seem to be for a plane in a somewhat larger class. Croatia's economic woes recently caused their plan for the mig replacement to be postponed until 2012 or so. That leaves the swiss, romania and denmark. Personally, being a member of jsf consortium and f16 user, i see denmark going for f35, just like norway did. Concerning Romania, there was much more talk of f16 purchases than anything else. Though, granted, Gripen does have a decent shot there.

So the only country i see buying gripens is switzerland. I just dont know if it will be one-for-one replacement of their f-5s or will the ordered gripens be just a token number, a squadron or so.
I see India as a potentail buyer for Gripen. The MMRCA is in order to replace Indias fleet of Mig 21s. If India chooses Gripen they will get full technology transfer which is perfect for India because of Indias ambition to be self sufficient but also establish itself as a supplier of state of the art fighter aircrafts. The Kaveri engine would fit Gripen IF it good enough that is. Saab will probably have the best offset offering because of it's belonging in the Wallenberg sphere (Saab, ABB, Ericsson, Electrolux etc). This matters in India, especially now... The Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) project is for a larger aircraft like the planned SU PAK-FA.

This article gives a lot of information of the current status of the MMRCA project.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...ndias-mrca-fighter-competition-changes-01989/
 

Runi_dk

New Member
Norway and Netherlands picked it for capability reasons. Their responses have been pretty clear on that.

Apart from the Danish version of Kopp/Goon the professional serving pilots with the Danish AF have been persistent in their belief as well.

The partners were all in Brussels a month ago and the Danes certainly weren't even remotely considering the Gripen. If Gripen is chosen it will be political, not technical as they also have made their opinions clear.
Yup, I have talked with some of the Danish F-16 pilots, they all want to fly JSF in the future, if they could choose.
 

wimpymouse

Banned Member
Norway and Netherlands picked it for capability reasons. Their responses have been pretty clear on that.

Apart from the Danish version of Kopp/Goon the professional serving pilots with the Danish AF have been persistent in their belief as well.

The partners were all in Brussels a month ago and the Danes certainly weren't even remotely considering the Gripen. If Gripen is chosen it will be political, not technical as they also have made their opinions clear.
Conserning Norway, I read this respons to their respons on why they didn't pick the Gripen.

http://www.gripen.com/en/MediaRelations/News/2008/saab_comments_on_norwegian_evalution.htm

Reading just what SAAB has to say about this sertainly doesn't tell all the story as I haven't read what Norway said, but by just reading this a scent of BS is sertainly up in the air.
 
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