Greek Type209 SSK to Egypt
- Thread starter contedicavour
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Dear orko_8,
As we know Turkish Navy also plans to modernize 4 of its Type 209s. This will extend their life more than 10 years and they will be replaced by the new generation submarines if i understand correctly.Does the navy plan to keep 12 sub inventory or is there a change planned?
As we know Turkish Navy also plans to modernize 4 of its Type 209s. This will extend their life more than 10 years and they will be replaced by the new generation submarines if i understand correctly.Does the navy plan to keep 12 sub inventory or is there a change planned?
Are there any plans for the Turkish Navy to upgrade some of its 209/1400 to AIP standard level?? Its likely that if Turkish Navy proceeds to a decision for new subs those will be in service in much less than a decade. First Greek Shipyards did not have such experience and secondly SS 120 "Papanikolis" is the first boat of its class so too many tests had to be done in order to check all systems and fix any misfunctions.
Currently only 4 of the older Type 209/1200s will be modernised without AIP. Turkish Navy has been reluctant on AIP and wanted to see the develeopments in this technology field before getting into it.
The Type 209/1400s are quite new and they have decades of service life . At some point they might receive AIP, perhaps before the modernised Type 209/1200s are retired.
The Type 209/1400s are quite new and they have decades of service life . At some point they might receive AIP, perhaps before the modernised Type 209/1200s are retired.
4 Ay class boats will be modernized in order to get an extra 15 - 20 years of service life. Machinery, fre control systems, communications and radar systems as well as periscopes will be replaced with more modern systems. HDW is running the project as prime contractor. These boats will not receive AIP upgrade, as known.
I also think that Turkish Navy wants to maintain a submarine fleet of 12 boats. Those modernized Ay's will gradually be replaced by new AIP's in the near future.
Preveze and Gur class boats are very new, especially Gur class has just entered service. It is too early to talk about AIP modernization of those boats, but it can be considered in the future. After all 30 year old Type 209/1100's can receive a major refit (Neptune II), why can't they?
I also think that Turkish Navy wants to maintain a submarine fleet of 12 boats. Those modernized Ay's will gradually be replaced by new AIP's in the near future.
Preveze and Gur class boats are very new, especially Gur class has just entered service. It is too early to talk about AIP modernization of those boats, but it can be considered in the future. After all 30 year old Type 209/1100's can receive a major refit (Neptune II), why can't they?
contedicavour
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- #47
Ehm also over here in La Spezia we need employmentWaylander said:HDW is the prime contractor?
Than I might get some photos of them while they are here in Kiel.
Jokes apart, we built U212As identical to the ones in Kiel. Some joint production for faster delivery to our Eastern NATO customers may make sense, a bit like the French and Spanish who share export orders for the Scorpene SSK.
If production can't be shared because of a specific clause in the German-Italian agreement, then at least we can use the joint training facilities (incl simulator) in Taranto. The German Navy will now use Taranto as its base for Mediterranean deployments. Good sharing of resources.
cheers
The greek 209/1200 subs since 2004 are upgrading to Neptune II and same time their length will be increased in order to add AIP. The last sub will be operational in 2013. They were already 25 years in service when the programme started and right after to the AIP standard. These kind of projects demand to much time and cost. If im right the cost for the upgrade for three vessels to AIP standard is up to 700mn euros. The point is if it worths all this time and cost for your older SSKs to receive an upgrade to AIP standard. To me it doesnt for your Attilay class.
Are you aware that latest Ay class of Turkish Navy is 9 years younger than the latest sub planned to receive Neptune II?fantasma said:
Greece T.1200 S 116 Poseidon 1979
Greece T.1200 S 117 Amfitriti 1979
Greece T.1200 S 118 Okeanos 1979
Greece T.1200 S 119 Pontos 1980
Turkey T.1200 S 349 Batiray 1978
Turkey T.1200 S 350 Yildiray 1981
Turkey T.1200 S 351 Doganay 1984
Turkey T.1200 S 352 Dolunay 1989
Turkish Navy plans a modest modernisation programme for these subs since their hulls are quite old (despite the fact that they are newer than Greek T209-1200s).
Batiray and Yildiray are the same age of the greeks 209/1200. My point was that everything has a proper time and if project beginns it would be better to include the last two. Remind you that the Neptune II counts already two years time. If the Neptune II for the Greek Subs started in 2008 i would consider it a waste of money and time.beleg said:
As far as i know Greek Neptune II program is the first of its kind. As you said the ships will be cut in 2, a new part installed in between , thus the Greek project takes quite a long time. With all the research and know how any similar modernisation would take a shorter time for another customer now.
Maybe not the Type209-1200s but i believe the Type209-1400s will receive this sort of modernisation when their time is due.
Maybe not the Type209-1200s but i believe the Type209-1400s will receive this sort of modernisation when their time is due.
contedicavour
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what about torpedoes ?
AFAIK the Turkish use Tigerfish and some are capable of using DM2A4.
Greece is discussing WASS Black Shark acquisition.
DM2A4 and Black Shark have similar capabilities (50kn for targets 20-25km away, 30-35kn for targets 50km away). Tigerfish are a generation behind, as the UK has replaced them with Spearfish.
What is your opinion on the quality of the armament on Greek and Turkish SSKs ? My opinion is that they are approx equal.
cheers
AFAIK the Turkish use Tigerfish and some are capable of using DM2A4.
Greece is discussing WASS Black Shark acquisition.
DM2A4 and Black Shark have similar capabilities (50kn for targets 20-25km away, 30-35kn for targets 50km away). Tigerfish are a generation behind, as the UK has replaced them with Spearfish.
What is your opinion on the quality of the armament on Greek and Turkish SSKs ? My opinion is that they are approx equal.
cheers
Turkey is using DMA2A4(Mod4) with Gür class(last will be comissioned this year) and Tigerfish(Mod24) with Preveze class.
As far as i know Greece has not yet chosen a torpedo for their new subs. I dont know which torpedoe they use in their older subs.
Other than that both navies use sub-harpoons.
As far as i know Greece has not yet chosen a torpedo for their new subs. I dont know which torpedoe they use in their older subs.
Other than that both navies use sub-harpoons.
Initially Greece had chosen WASS Black Shark for her Type 214 Papanikolis boats. But the work necessary to integrate the torpedo to the fire control system of ISUS-90 rocketed unit costs, so talks were terminated. Greek Navy has been seriously considering procurement of DM2A4 since then.contedicavour said:
As for current fleet, as far as I know Glavkos (209/110) class use SUT Mod0 and Poseidon (209/1200) class use SST-4 torpedoes.
As for Turkish Navy,
Primary weapon of Ay class boats are SST-4 Mod1 and then Mk37. Preveze class boats use primarily Mk24 Mod2 Tigerfish and secondarily Mk37, while Gur class use both DM2A4 and Mk24 Mod2 Tigerfish.
Turkish Navy uses a specially modified version of DM2A4, of which this modification work caused a serious delay in the project schedule. Deliveries have been continuing, as far as I know.
Apparently, Greek submarine fleet is at least one or two generations behind of Turkish Navy in terms of torpedoes, since they solely rely on SST-4 and SUT. It is still not clear which weapon will be used in PN Type 214's and if a selection has been made for Neptune II boats. I expect that DM2A4 will be selected for both classes, that would be a logical choice.