Greek Type209 SSK to Egypt

[fantasma]

I have a very close friend who is in the subs and espessially to the one Poseidon class that is rumored to be sold to Egypt (2boats sold + 2 withdrawal). His speculation as someone who has an insider view is that because of budget restrictions the subs fleet will be reduced by one way or another to 7 boats..4 U214 AIP + 3 older upgraded 209/1200 to AIP standard..

 

[beleg]

Dear fantasma,
From what i have read on the net i am also under impression that the planning for Hellenic Navy Submarine fleet is 7 ships and 1 training ship making a total of 8. Yet i am not sure if this will become true...

Last Type214 wont be comissioned before 2010 and last Type209/1200 wont be finished upgrading before 2013.
Relieving these subs from duty before 2010 is a great risc for Greece , considering any possible delay in current sub programs.. and in a decade those subs hulls will be in a position that no sailor will want to get in unless they get a serious refitting..

The oldest 2 might be scrappe/sold quite soon when the second Type214 enters service and the other 2 around 2010-2013.

TuNavy will modernise & keep 4 of its 6 Type209/1200s and has 4+4 Type209/1400s.. The tender for an AIP sub is also on the way which probably will start delivery by 2010.. TuNavy has the strongest ASW capabilities in the Eastern Med. and will continiue bulding up its ASW and AsuW capabilities by building MiLGEMs (8+4) & ASW Patrol boats (16) and modernising MEKOs.(8) & Perries (8), acquiring more S-70Bs, ATR72s etc etc of which all will be completed by 2010s as well.

I am not sure Greek Navy will feel safe in such an enviroment and will try to keep its sub fleet strong and adquate.. Ofcourse that is if they dont see a solution to Aegean problems over the horizon

 

[fantasma]

As i can see from the media etc there is a tendency to reduce defence spending. Greece must reduce her deficit under 3% and our economy is under watch from the E.U. This goal will not be achieved as long as Greece spends over 2% of GDP for new weapon acquisitions. Mostly after 74' the 80ys and after 96'-2001. Goverments target is to reduce it to 1%. Also the defence minister made statements on this certain issue backing the necessity to reduce the persentage for new weaponry to 1%. A trully dilemma here, maintain spending to 2% and have a reliable quantity and quality force in a very unpredictable and unstable "neighbourhood" or face deficit troubles and suffer the consequences of an economy under "watch". If you ask me i'm not optimistic that Aegean issues are going to be resolved. To me they could change structures and rules to make a more flexible economy that could boost growth of GDP easily over 5% so defence spending may not affect that bad the deficit. If you watch the prospects and naval projects on the long term and the number of the haf's fleet and projects the tendency is to have less numbers and maybe a bigger emphasis in quality terms.

 

[beleg]

Dear Fantasma,
operational requirements and the economical requirements often collide. However i still cant believe that Greek Navy will accept to be in a position where it is both qualitatively and quantitatively seriously outnumbered by Turkish SSKs.

Although Turkey doesnt have major surface platform acqusition plans for today the situation is already haveily in favour of Turkish Navy at the seas for today and at least for another decade this will not change both in terms of quality and quantity.

 

[fantasma]

Dear Fantasma,
operational requirements and the economical requirements often collide. However i still cant believe that Greek Navy will accept to be in a position where it is both qualitatively and quantitatively seriously outnumbered by Turkish SSKs.

Although Turkey doesnt have major surface platform acqusition plans for today the situation is already haveily in favour of Turkish Navy at the seas for today and at least for another decade this will not change both in terms of quality and quantity.

Beleg until the 80s and early 90s Greek Navy had an advantage over the Turkish Navy..Slowly and consistenly Turkey started her naval build up in quantitative and in qualitative terms..today it outnumbers the greek major combat ships in ratio from 1/2 to 1.5/2
Offensive capabilities of a fleet are mostly characterised by figures and quality of the SSK. Do not see it as 7 greek subs to 14 turkish but as a ratio of ASW and ASuW to the others country subs and of a ratio against the main combat naval ships. For example Greece in the future will have as many frigates as Tyrkeys subs and turkey's frigates will be about 3 or 4 times the total number of the greek subs.(i including the Milgem corvettes into the main turkish combat ships).
For the time being we speculate and comment on the tendencies and programmes underway. To me Navy has not a crystal thesis yet or we 're not aware of the submarines fleet. time will tell.

 

[contedicavour]

I don't think purely numerical comparisons make sense here.
U212/U214 AIP SSKs with the latest sonars and torpedoes such as Blackshark are generations ahead of the older T209s.
They can stay underwater for 15 days, intercept enemy SSKs from farther away and liquidate them with longer range torpedoes.
So I would compare numbers of latest generation SSKs (Greece's 4 versus ?? expected Turkish) and then of older-though modernized SSKs (8 for Turkey and 4 for Greece if the decommissionning of the older 4 goes through).
Given the difference in the size of the 2 countries' patrol areas, Greece would have enough assets to counter any potential threat from... the East

Besides, guys, the UK will have only 8 SSNs as the Astutes replace Swiftsure and Trafalgar. France only has 6 SSN, Italy 6 SSK...
Why would you need more than 8 SSKs ???

cheers

 

[beleg]

Dear contedicavour

Unfortunately you are wrong. 8 of turkish type 209 are 1400ts and are much more capable platforms than the older 209s of TuNavy and Greek Navy. The latest 4 U-209/1400s (one of them is still under construction) of Turkey are in the same class of Type 214s in terms of mission capabillities except for the extended operation given by AIP.

Its still not clear what torpedoes the Greek 214s will use yet since theye didnt select a new generation torpedo for their subs yet.. I also read several articles that the sonar is also not selected or not operational.. Fantasma can fill us with more information here..

The latest Turkish Type209 1400s use DM2A4 already for some time which in the future might be selected for Greek 214s as well since its a better suited torpedo for a German submarine ..The other 4 Type 1400s which are also quite modern use tigerfish torpedoes.

Each navy has its own operational requirements. I cant comment on what other countries do, but Turkish Navy sees SSKs as the major attack weapons in case of hostility since the ASW capabilities of the possible threats around Turkey are relatively weak.

 

[fantasma]

Dear contedicavour

Unfortunately you are wrong. 8 of turkish type 209 are 1400ts and are much more capable platforms than the older 209s of TuNavy and Greek Navy. The latest 4 U-209/1400s (one of them is still under construction) of Turkey are in the same class of Type 214s in terms of mission capabillities except for the extended operation given by AIP.

Its still not clear what torpedoes the Greek 214s will use yet since theye didnt select a new generation torpedo for their subs yet.. I also read several articles that the sonar is also not selected or not operational.. Fantasma can fill us with more information here..

The latest Turkish Type209 1400s use DM2A4 already for some time which in the future might be selected for Greek 214s as well since its a better suited torpedo for a German submarine ..The other 4 Type 1400s which are also quite modern use tigerfish torpedoes.

Each navy has its own operational requirements. I cant comment on what other countries do, but Turkish Navy sees SSKs as the major attack weapons in case of hostility since the ASW capabilities of the possible threats around Turkey are relatively weak.

I agree with Beleg that the 8 class Gur and Preveze 209/1400 are quite modern very reliable and surely very dangerous for the Greek fleet though they were built in the 90s and early 2000.
The torpedoe issue isnt resolved for several years but yes from what i have also read the DM2A4 are the most possible (just to say that the subs are under construction not yet decision for torpedoes and the same paradox to the ammo for the Leo2A6).
In the web there is a site of the greek navy "hellenicnavy.gr" saying that the U214 is fitted with the ISUS System of ATLAS ELEKTRONIC as a complete system out of which 2 consoles will be used exclusively as a sonar device (no further info). Radar, ESM, GPS, PERISCOPE etc will be also controlled by ISUS Systems

 

[contedicavour]

Dear contedicavour

Unfortunately you are wrong. 8 of turkish type 209 are 1400ts and are much more capable platforms than the older 209s of TuNavy and Greek Navy. The latest 4 U-209/1400s (one of them is still under construction) of Turkey are in the same class of Type 214s in terms of mission capabillities except for the extended operation given by AIP.

Its still not clear what torpedoes the Greek 214s will use yet since theye didnt select a new generation torpedo for their subs yet.. I also read several articles that the sonar is also not selected or not operational.. Fantasma can fill us with more information here..

The latest Turkish Type209 1400s use DM2A4 already for some time which in the future might be selected for Greek 214s as well since its a better suited torpedo for a German submarine ..The other 4 Type 1400s which are also quite modern use tigerfish torpedoes.

Each navy has its own operational requirements. I cant comment on what other countries do, but Turkish Navy sees SSKs as the major attack weapons in case of hostility since the ASW capabilities of the possible threats around Turkey are relatively weak.

Ok I acknowledge I underestimated the 209/1400s vs the older 209s, my fault. However AIP makes one hell of a difference when your enemy is hovering around with helos waiting for you to recharge your batteries. A SSK hanging around Turkey's òain harbours can remain hidden underwater for 15 days waiting for surface targets or even enemy SSKs to come out. Think one moment what this advantage gives the attackers : position the SSKs before a conflict just in front of the enemy harbour. For 15 days the Turkish fleet would risk being bottled up in the harbour while all available ASW assets try to find the submerged enemy SSKs

Besides, although I'm not enough of an expert, U212 have a sonar suite that is considered a generation ahead of the T209s ! We're talking conformal flank array and towed array passive&active sonars. AFAIK no T209, not even the latest Turkish 1400s have this.

cheers

 

[Waylander]

Isn't three weeks the longest time an U212A is able to run on AIP?

 

[murene]

Turkish submarines SSK of the class "Preveze" is fitted
with the suite sonar STN Atlas CSU-83-1 that includes a towed array sonar.

 

[contedicavour]

Isn't three weeks the longest time an U212A is able to run on AIP?

May be a German U212A has already achieved 3 weeks autonomy underwater. Our Todaro has for the moment achieved 15 days, though more exercises will soon be run.
By the way, a German U212A has joined our Todaro and Scirè in Taranto for joint exercises.
Good to see a successful collaboration

cheers

 

[Emrahg]

I think one think is missing here. TuNavy is not only responsible for Aegean but Black Sea, Aegean and Medditerranean. Greece also has a lot islands to help defending their mainland against naval threats , So its natural that our requirments are far more than Greece. So we can't allocate all our navy to aegean sea even with the reality of there is no strong naval threat on the region other than Greek Navy.

 

[orko_8]

Turkish submarines SSK of the class "Preveze" is fitted
with the suite sonar STN Atlas CSU-83-1 that includes a towed array sonar.

CSU-83/26 to be precise. "-26" is Turkey's code in "83" series. Gur class uses CSU-90/33 and ISUS-90/33. If I recall exactly, "-1" was Brazil's code in "83" series.

Besides, although I'm not enough of an expert, U212 have a sonar suite that is considered a generation ahead of the T209s ! We're talking conformal flank array and towed array passive&active sonars. AFAIK no T209, not even the latest Turkish 1400s have this.

You are wrong my friend, I think you should re-check your sources. Preveze (Type 209/1400) class submarines have CSU-83 sonar suite and ISUS-83 combat management system. Gur (Type 209/1400Mod) class submarines have CSU-90 sonar suite and ISUS-90 sombat management system which are also used in Type 214 submarines.

AIP is a huge power boost and a force multiplier to a sub fleet, but in the end both AIP and non-AIP boats use the same weapon: torpedo, if you know what I mean.

By the way, as far as I know, sonar suite for Papanikolis class hasn't been selected yet. Any update about the issue?

 

[Gerasimos]

Does anyone know what orders Turkey made against the 4 new 214 subs Greece ordered?They will be ready until 2010.

 

[orko_8]

Does anyone know what orders Turkey made against the 4 new 214 subs Greece ordered?They will be ready until 2010.

RfI was announced, replies were taken for four AIP submarines with some local technology involved. Most favorite candidate is Type 214. No decision is expected until 2007, IIRC.

 

[Waylander]

Take them!
We need the money and jobs here in Kiel.

 

[Gerasimos]

Greece signed the order for the 4 214 in 2000,and we expect the last one in 2010.You can imagine that if they are ordered in 2007,they will be ready near 2017.Surely new subs will be available.

 

[orko_8]

But most of the time after Type 214 order were spent for the build-up of infrastructure and training of personnel of Hellenic Shipyards for submarine construction, since Greece has not built submarines before. Golcuk Naval Shipyard has been building submarines since 1976 and there is enough experience and infrastructure to shorten the learning curve required for a submarine such as Type 214, which is a continuation of Type 209 design concept. It can safely be expected that 4 new AIP project can be completed before 2017.

 

[Gerasimos]

You are right Greece's 209 subs were built in Germany,althought updated here.But I am also interested to see where the new turkish 214 will start duty,Black sea,Aegean,north of Cyprus?