Greek Type209 SSK to Egypt

[contedicavour]

I've just read on the air forces thread that Greece has proposed to Egypt 4 of its unmodernised Type 209 subs.
Interesting move, knowing that Egypt has been hesitating for 10+ years between Walrus, German and French designs but that nothing had materialized.
Israel would maintain a lead given the capabilities of its U214s, still, an even moderately modernized Type 209 in Egyptian service would alter military equilibrium...

cheers

 

[beleg]

These ships hulls are very old , however they are Sub-Harpoon capable. It will effect the balance in more than one places in Eastern Mediterrenean if this transfer happens within a few years.

 

[contedicavour]

These ships hulls are very old , however they are Sub-Harpoon capable. It will effect the balance in more than one places in Eastern Mediterrenean if this transfer happens within a few years.

Agree. I wonder if this will push the Israeli Navy to enhance its ASW capabilities. Beyond its 3 (soon 5) U214 SSKs, the Israeli Navy is short on ASW : no VD sonars, no ASW helicopters...

cheers

 

[beleg]

Well, we will have to take this news with a grain of salt, exactly like their offer to sell the Ellis to Pakistan.

Greece is currently modernising 3 of its 4 relatively new Type 209s (1200t).. The modernisation is a lengthy process since it involves cutting the ship in half for integration of AIP and if no delays will finish around 2013. Meanwhile the last Type 214 will be delivered and be operational in 2010.

If Greece hands over these 4 ships before 2010 their operational submarines (which would make only 5 until 2010) will not be enough to counter the threat by Turkish Navy.

I am not sure if these ships , which by 2010, will be 40 years old wil be worth to be sold..

 

[contedicavour]

Well, we will have to take this news with a grain of salt, exactly like their offer to sell the Ellis to Pakistan.

Greece is currently modernising 3 of its 4 relatively new Type 209s (1200t).. The modernisation is a lengthy process since it involves cutting the ship in half for integration of AIP and if no delays will finish around 2013. Meanwhile the last Type 214 will be delivered and be operational in 2010.

If Greece hands over these 4 ships before 2010 their operational submarines (which would make only 5 until 2010) will not be enough to counter the threat by Turkish Navy.

I am not sure if these ships , which by 2010, will be 40 years old wil be worth to be sold..

True, 40 year old SSKs are hardly worth paying for. Though the Egyptians are used to old submarines : their Romeos are 35 years old and despite some limited American modernization they are bound for the scrapheap. The 209s will be just as old in 2010 but at least they are German construction and carry better torpedoes (almost anything will do better than the mk37 ... ).

cheers

 

[Jtimes2]

I'd take it with a grain of salt for two reasons:

1) The bulk of the Egyptian navy's budget comes from US aid; which means it must be used on US-built ships. This has held up their new submarine buy for almost a decade now; their first choice was the Dutch Moray design which the Netherlands refused to release the drawings to the US. They then tried to buy the two Zwaardis hulls second-hand, they could not find enough non-US Aid $ to afford them. Recently; they are pinning their hopes on buying whatever diesel sub Taiwan has built here.

If you look at their fleet, all the high-end units since the 1980s (Knox & Perry class frigates, Seasprite helos, Ambassador patrol boats, E-2 Hawkeyes, etc) are US-made for this reason.

2) The Greek 209's have a lot of second-source technology (US weapons, German sensors, Dutch periscopes etc). Inside NATO; no problem with the legality; but outside NATO each of those countries have end-use clauses which complicate a sale to a third party.

 

[contedicavour]

I'd take it with a grain of salt for two reasons:

1) The bulk of the Egyptian navy's budget comes from US aid; which means it must be used on US-built ships. This has held up their new submarine buy for almost a decade now; their first choice was the Dutch Moray design which the Netherlands refused to release the drawings to the US. They then tried to buy the two Zwaardis hulls second-hand, they could not find enough non-US Aid $ to afford them. Recently; they are pinning their hopes on buying whatever diesel sub Taiwan has built here.

If you look at their fleet, all the high-end units since the 1980s (Knox & Perry class frigates, Seasprite helos, Ambassador patrol boats, E-2 Hawkeyes, etc) are US-made for this reason.

2) The Greek 209's have a lot of second-source technology (US weapons, German sensors, Dutch periscopes etc). Inside NATO; no problem with the legality; but outside NATO each of those countries have end-use clauses which complicate a sale to a third party.

Hmm you are right ! So what solution would be better for Egypt according to you ? Egypt may be short of budgets but Israel's recent buy of a 4th and 5th U214 must sooner or later force Egypt to react.

cheers

 

[Jtimes2]

Hmm you are right ! So what solution would be better for Egypt according to you ? Egypt may be short of budgets but Israel's recent buy of a 4th and 5th U214 must sooner or later force Egypt to react.

cheers

They are kind of in a bind right now; they really can't do much of anything until the Taiwanese deal is ironed out.

 

[Sea Toby]

Electric Boat appears to be getting into the diesel submarine building business again, since Newport News seems to be getting all of the few American orders. A Taiwan order is in the works, surely an Egyptian order would be welcomed too. If I were the Egyptian government, I would wait long enough to see whether they could order a few American funded submarines from Electric Boat for the long term for new submarines.

However, if there is a need for a few old submarines for the short term, any old submarine offered would be very tempting.

 

[ComSec]

Given Greece's highly problematic defence acquisition structures - where there is no actuall legal framework for resale of equipment - it is unlikely that such as transaction will take place. Even the recent rumours about frigate sales to Pakistan suggest that is also now unlikely to materialise. The speculation about this sale to Egypt is circulating in the Greek press for quite some time now.

At the moment - as rightly beleg pointed out - if any of the above mantioned sales takes place will find Greece with less units than their actuall planning and will jeopardise their defence planning.

 

[contedicavour]

Electric Boat appears to be getting into the diesel submarine building business again, since Newport News seems to be getting all of the few American orders. A Taiwan order is in the works, surely an Egyptian order would be welcomed too. If I were the Egyptian government, I would wait long enough to see whether they could order a few American funded submarines from Electric Boat for the long term for new submarines.

However, if there is a need for a few old submarines for the short term, any old submarine offered would be very tempting.

I haven't read news about the Taiwan deal for a very long while. The last information I read is that the German HDW shipyard was partly owned by an American private fund (KKR ?) and that would facilitate the sale of a SSK design to American shipyards. Since then, no news at all.

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

Given Greece's highly problematic defence acquisition structures - where there is no actuall legal framework for resale of equipment - it is unlikely that such as transaction will take place. Even the recent rumours about frigate sales to Pakistan suggest that is also now unlikely to materialise. The speculation about this sale to Egypt is circulating in the Greek press for quite some time now.

At the moment - as rightly beleg pointed out - if any of the above mantioned sales takes place will find Greece with less units than their actuall planning and will jeopardise their defence planning.

I wouldn't be surprised... it's exactly what happened to Italy when we sold 4 Lupo FFGs to Peru 2 years ago only to realize delays in FREMM production (1st one to be laid down next year) would blow a whole in our total force numbers. Still, the sale went ahead for budgetary reasons.

cheers

 

[Waylander]

As long as I know german government still does not allow to sell subs to Taiwan.
I also know nothing new from HDW and I see the yard if I look out of my window.

 

[beleg]

HDW might soon get a 2+2 Type 214AIP order from Turkish Navy

 

[fgiorgos]

Re:

Hi all! It's true. The Greek press is on the matter for quite a while now. Still, i don't think such a sale is possible.

We are in need for these ships right now. The new Subs will take long to get in service (2010 as estimated). By then we can't afford a sale as we are going to be low on numbers.

Still, outside of NATO as mentioned before, these ships cen't be easily saled despite the need of the Egyptian navy. I also doubt if we have the legal right to sale ships of non-Greek origin. I'm not sure though about the German ones... They have some US systems installed so...

 

[contedicavour]

Hi all! It's true. The Greek press is on the matter for quite a while now. Still, i don't think such a sale is possible.

We are in need for these ships right now. The new Subs will take long to get in service (2010 as estimated). By then we can't afford a sale as we are going to be low on numbers.

Still, outside of NATO as mentioned before, these ships cen't be easily saled despite the need of the Egyptian navy. I also doubt if we have the legal right to sale ships of non-Greek origin. I'm not sure though about the German ones... They have some US systems installed so...

With all the US equipment the Egyptian Armed Forces have, I think the US and Germany would not object to a sale of used Type 209 to Egypt.

cheers

 

[KWSN-Men]

With all the US equipment the Egyptian Armed Forces have, I think the US and Germany would not object to a sale of used Type 209 to Egypt.

cheers

Greece has a lot of US equipment too, but USA denied Germany selling their M109s so...

 

[Waylander]

Be glad that you did not get the M109. Now you've got the PzH2000.

 

[KWSN-Men]

Be glad that you did not get the M109. Now you've got the PzH2000.

Sure. But a lot more expensive and only a fragment of units...

By the way, a friend served at the Panzers (PzH2000) and he was really impressed from the technology level of the beast. He has a PhD in Robotics by the way.

Sorry for the offtopic.

 

[beleg]

Be glad that you did not get the M109. Now you've got the PzH2000.

Greece already had the PzH2000 when they asked for those M109s. USA denied it partly because it would greatly disturb the artillary balance between Turkey and Greece. I read Greece plans to go for more second hand PzH2000 for its land forces , however considering the limited numbers and expensive prices of PzH2000 Greece at one point will have to acquire another artillary unit with similar capabilities to PzH2000 with greater mobility.

K-9 derivatives which is one of the best selling artillary guns with a complete support vehicle (K-10) is out of question because of Turkish & Korean cooperation on T-155 namely K-9 with complete NATO compliant Turkish artillary fire control system.

I am eager to see further development in this sumbarine issue. As i said i dont see it likely since TuNavy will start a tender this year for 4 AIP subs (2+2). That would be suicidal ,in terms of mission rediness and capabilities, for Greek Navy to transfer those subs too early.