Greek and Turkish jets 'collide'

[beleg]

I never said Turkey was part of UNCLObS, but Karpathos (Greece) is.

So according to your logic if Cuba groups up with a few other countries and signes a treaty saying that her national airspace and tw is 500nm, USA will agree to that?

What Greece accepts is irrelevant. Turkey is not bound by the law of UNCLOS thus cannot be accused of violating it.

Greece has to solve this complex problem with Turkey, if not these unpleasent things will continiue, harming both countries socially and economically.

 

[341-Phalanx]

Just b/c it is civil does not preclude the obligation of Turkish pilots to file a flight plan and notify FIR Athens of there approach.

You don't wanna understand i think. Military aircrafts dont have to notify FIR.

 

[KWSN-Men]

They were mocking each other. I mean they were having a mock Dog fight and scare each other away. This is not un usual between the two, infact it is said it is regular conflict. Some times back a Greek Mirage2000 shot down a unarmed Turkish F-16 on recon flight, they dint give much explainations either. I guess both are even on the F-16s, except that Turkey lost its F-4.

The Turkish pilot was rescued by a merchant ship with Panamese flag, 'Gas Century', that belongs to the Japanese company Yamamaru.

When the Greek SAR Super Puma wnt to pick him up, he refused to get on board and even pulled his gun.

And they were not mocking each other, as usual, the Greek fighter was intercepting the Turkish one.

 

[KWSN-Men]

First of all as i said above both aircraft were F-16s. Greek one is a blk 52+ and Turkish one is most likely a blk50 since its from from 9AJU 192 sq.

Secondly Big-E, i dont think you are in a position to judge our intelligence.

Is not a very intelligent sentence in itself since the first part conflicts with second part.

Aegean problem is a complex problem and cannot be tied only to FIR. Starting from militarization of demiliterised islands to territorial waters and airspace problems, gray zones to FIR its a difficult situation to solve. Events like these will continiue to occur as long as problems are not solved.

Since you are hoisting the flag of a nation that shoots first and asks later you dont have right to tell us or teach us how this game is played. We Turks have been around long enough to know both politics and warfare.

It is not complex, Turkey has signed internetional treaties but has decided they are not serving it's interests anymore so they say that there are gray areas. In my country they say that you must be carefull were you put your .... and your signature. I guess Turkey wasn't, so they say that what they signed is no more...

Is the Greek FIR something all countries have agreed on? Is Turkey the only country disputing it? Does this say something about Turkey?

Are the Eastern Agean islands militarised? They sure are. Should they be by international treaties? No. Is it nessecary for them to be militarised? Yes, since on the opposite coast there is the 'Agean Army', loaded with landing boats.

Events like this will continue to occur as far as the Turkish 'gray' government, the Turkish Army, continues to be agressive and not obide to International Law.

 

[KWSN-Men]

It is a complex problem. Your very post above shows your arrogance in the subject. While Greece claims a 10 nm airspace in the aegean(despite their 6nm territorial waters. only country in the world with airspace bigger than territorial waters.) Turkey recognises only 6nm airspace and conducts flights that show in action that we dont accept their sovreignity over the region.Again i am repeating This flight as well as other Turkish exercises in Aegean and Mediterenean was reported to NATO HQ before it was conducted.

So any event which happens 16 km away from a Greek island (bigger than 6nm) is NOT Greek airspace.

Unfortunately the Greek pilot is killed. RIP.

Actually, by Internatioal Law, Greece can expand it territorial waters and national waters at 12nm. Turkey has stated that if Greece excercises it's right, it's casus belli. Greece, being interested in stability and growth has decided not to excercise this right for now. Turkey is taking advantage of this in order to raise more and more claims.

If Turkey wants to conduct exersises, even in international airspace, it has to report to the FIR that this airspace belongs to. Turkey never reports it's flight plans to the Athens FIR. Thus, the aircraft are considered hostile and intercepted.

 

[KWSN-Men]

You don't wanna understand i think. Military aircrafts dont have to notify FIR.

The incident was first reported by the Egyptian Air pilot, flying the 797 flight from Cairo to Vienna while being at 34,000 feet. He reported a big flash 2000 feet below him. That is a bit more than half a kilometer. How does this comply with internetional flight safety regulations?

Were the fighters supposed to be there? No.

And lets admit you are right about the Greek airspace. Tell me something else. How long does it take a fighter to fly a 7nm distance? Have Turkish fighters ever overflown Greek islands and islets? I know, I know, it is just the 'gray' ones, right?

 

[beleg]

Once you engage in a dogfight its natural to violate Greek airspace due to to extreme velocity of the aircraft.

Aegean Army was found years AFTER Greece started to militerise Eastern Aegean and Docadanese islands.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Time to pause fella's.

I don't want to see an outbreak of hostilties between the Greek and Turkish members on here.​

 

[beleg]

Totally agree with you gf0012-aust. One valuable man is still missing assumed dead. We dont need piss contest or spit fights. Now everyone should pray for his safety for the sake of his family and kids.

 

[KWSN-Men]

Time to pause fella's.

I don't want to see an outbreak of hostilties between the Greek and Turkish members on here.​

So it was fine when the Turkish members of the forum was posting their opinions on the matter, but not when the other side was heard? Or was it fine that an American member was posting his opposite views but when a Greek does it's a no-no?

If you are interested in preventing hostilities, you should, imho, address the issues when members from a country start posting their views in the first place, not when somebody throws in some counterweight....

 

[webmaster]

Lets not play the victim card. Both sides are at fault and if other members were doing something inappropriate, you should have pointed it out to the admins/mods rather than replying and joining the circus.

Rules:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php and they APPLY to EVERYONE, regardless of their country, religion or opinion.

 

[beleg]

DATE: 24.05.2006
BULLETIN NO : 08

There published/aired diverse news on mass media about the collision and crash of Turkish and Greek F-16 fighters on May 23, 2006. Upon examination of said news it is deemed as necessary to make a press release on the accident based on the true information.

One F-4 accompanied by two F-16 fighters took off from Dalaman Airport at 12:30C on May 23, 2006, for the planned routine training flight in the international airspace over the Mediterranen Sea. Greek authorities dispatched two Greek F-16 fighters to intercept our fighters. Greek F-16s in violation of International Civilian Aviation Organization (ICAO) engagement rules (which provide 1000 feet security zone) harrassed our fighters coming closer to less than provided for security distance. On 12.48C hrs, while our fighters continue their routine mission without any maneouvers a fastly approaching Greek F-16 crashed from behind and below Turkish F-16 without entering any engagements to our aircraft (there was no dogfight). As a result of the collision both aircrafts crashed, and Turkish pilot survived after ejected. The incident took place 33 nm south of Rhodes (Rodos), and 35 nm east of Karpathos (Kerpe) islands (3524N, 2750E) in the international airspace. Our pilot first rescued by a Panama flag vessel, and then by a Turkish search and rescue helicopter and brought to Fethiye State Hospital. The health condition of the pilot is allright and he has returned back to his mission.

translation by modus@acig,

Official statement by TuAF about the incident.

 

[KWSN-Men]

Lets not play the victim card. Both sides are at fault and if other members were doing something inappropriate, you should have pointed it out to the admins/mods rather than replying and joining the circus.

Rules:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php and they APPLY to EVERYONE, regardless of their country, religion or opinion.

So what about official press releases? Are we allowed to comment those? Because the one posted has more holes than swiss cheese...

 

[webmaster]

I suggest, post press releases from both sides.

 

[HateBreed]

happened before, often

this has happened before and happens often, however, a collision is the first timer. a few months back, the turks intercepted a flight of greek falcons with their own. they buzzed right around them. things were even more so serious at that particular event because the grecian defense minister was also sitting in one of the greek f16, although no one shot down anyone, it was a close call.

 

[gf0012-aust]

So it was fine when the Turkish members of the forum was posting their opinions on the matter, but not when the other side was heard? Or was it fine that an American member was posting his opposite views but when a Greek does it's a no-no?

Where did this come from? Like everyone else on here, the Mods have lives outside of the Forum. We therefore pick up on threads when we're logged on, or if we're alerted by a complaint.

We don't live on here, and we're not telepathic. We will however react as soon as we see something amiss.

If you are interested in preventing hostilities, you should, imho, address the issues when members from a country start posting their views in the first place, not when somebody throws in some counterweight....

See above.

I don't care whether its about Martians fighting Beagles or Roses waging war on Daffodils, the behaviour is unacceptable and the post will get a Mods attention because it serves no purpose except to panda to further national discontent.

When you look at the history of some of the posts in here you'll notice that in the norm they get 3 warnings, unless they go really off the rails in which case they'll get closed immediately.

This post is on 2 notices already. It's for everyones benefit to avoid the 3rd as it will mean topic closure.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Does anyone know if the F-16's collided at the merge? I guess there isn't alot of info being released yet. Does anyone here that has fighter experience wish to comment? I would like to hear from anyone that has possibly been in a similar situation.

Also I just read that the Grek Pilot did not eject.

 

[type 209]

If someone could post an UNBIASED list of incidents between greek and turkish forces on air or sea and their locations and causes, outcomes etc it might shed some light onto this one and why it occured.

 

[Big-E]

Does anyone here that has fighter experience wish to comment?

I have commented and will sum it up. These pilots were engaged in Colorful Actions and had a major screw up. This is what happens when ACMs occur b/w novices. I taught this very procedure out of NATOPS, the info in this book and the Aegean counterparts will save your aircraft and your life, but you have to read it!

 

[KWSN-Men]

I have commented and will sum it up. These pilots were engaged in Colorful Actions and had a major screw up. This is what happens when ACMs occur b/w novices. I taught this very procedure out of NATOPS, the info in this book and the Aegean counterparts will save your aircraft and your life, but you have to read it!

Engagements like this happen almost every day over the Aegean, some days with tens of incidents. If you think about it, the accident ratio is quite low.