Greek and Turkish jets 'collide'

[SABRE]

Greek and Turkish fighter jets have collided in mid-air over the southern Aegean sea, Greek officials say.

The collision happened near to the island of Karpathos and a search and rescue effort is under way.

One defence official said the jets were shadowing each other when the crash happened. The pilots' fate is unknown.

Greece and Turkish warplanes frequently intercept each other in the Aegean, where they dispute airspace and territorial waters.

In the past, the two have come close to armed conflict in the area.

"The planes collided during interception manoeuvres above Karpathos," a defence ministry official was quoted by Reuters news agency as saying.

Source: BBC World News
Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5008178.stm

According to latest report it were Greek F-16 and Turkish R-F4 that collided togather.

 

[Big-E]

According to latest report it were Greek F-16 and Turkish R-F4 that collided togather.

Considering it occured in Greek airspace I think the Turks have some explaining to do. :eek

 

[SABRE]

Considering it occured in Greek airspace I think the Turks have some explaining to do. :eek

They were mocking each other. I mean they were having a mock Dog fight and scare each other away. This is not un usual between the two, infact it is said it is regular conflict. Some times back a Greek Mirage2000 shot down a unarmed Turkish F-16 on recon flight, they dint give much explainations either. I guess both are even on the F-16s, except that Turkey lost its F-4.

 

[beleg]

A TuAF F-16 blk50 (probably) collided with a Greek blk52+ 35 nm south of Rhodes in international waters of Mediterenean. Turkish pilot has been rescued by a Turkish merchant ship in the region. No news of the Greek pilot yet.

 

[Scorpion82]

They were mocking each other. I mean they were having a mock Dog fight and scare each other away. This is not un usual between the two, infact it is said it is regular conflict. Some times back a Greek Mirage2000 shot down a unarmed Turkish F-16 on recon flight, they dint give much explainations either. I guess both are even on the F-16s, except that Turkey lost its F-4.

A Mirage 2000 shot down a F-16? Sounds unbelieveable. I know there were often such mock up dog fights between turkish and greek fighters, but I never heared that one of both had ever shot down the opposite.

 

[SABRE]

A TuAF F-16 blk50 (probably) collided with a Greek blk52+ 35 nm south of Rhodes in international waters of Mediterenean. Turkish pilot has been rescued by a Turkish merchant ship in the region. No news of the Greek pilot yet.

From the news I am hearing, it was Turkish F-4. (Let me do some digging)

A Mirage 2000 shot down a F-16? Sounds unbelieveable. I know there were often such mock up dog fights between turkish and greek fighters, but I never heared that one of both had ever shot down the opposite.

Believe it. Do some google search on it. I thin it was similar situation, except that TUAF F-16 was unarmed (according to TUAF Spokesman -- even if it wsnt it dint fire at Helnaic Mirage2000). The story was kept from public knowledge for some time but Greeks reported it.

 

[Big-E]

They were mocking each other. I mean they were having a mock Dog fight and scare each other away. This is not un usual between the two, infact it is said it is regular conflict. Some times back a Greek Mirage2000 shot down a unarmed Turkish F-16 on recon flight, they dint give much explainations either. I guess both are even on the F-16s, except that Turkey lost its F-4.

Considering Karpathos and all the islands around it are Greek airspace the Turkish F-4 was in violation of FIR Athens. Turkey participated and accepted the ICAO boundries and regulations. Just b/c they decided to issue NOTAM 714 doesn't mean they get to break international law. If Turkey does not have the intelligence to read the document they signed which states:

"In accordance with the ICAO regulations and with international practice, all aircraft, civil and military alike, must submit proper notification before crossing the FIR."

They continue to assume military aircraft do not apply to the rules which are clearly stated, I guess they don't consider an R-F4 a military aircraft.

The fact that they were moc dog fighting clearly goes against the ROE of NATO. These exercises are supposed to be conducted under supervision and safety conditions not at the behest of some hot-shot pilots. It is exactly this kind of disregard for ROE that gets these pilots killed. I know that the rules laid down by Greek commanders strictly forbids this, the fact that Turkey withdrew NOTAM 714 doesn't prevent the fact that they promote pilots to cross the FIR and Greek pilots must intercept them. They are not to engage in aerial maneuvers with the hostil unless lit up or fired upon, these are the Greek ROE! So unless this pilot was lit up or fired upon he broke the rules and is now dead. We have studied the Greek/Turkey situation as an example of what not to do when dealing with hot-shot hostiles. If I ever hear of one my SWATLANT students pulling this kind of stunt I will ground them personally! This is the kind of stunt that gets us killed, disregard for the rules and adolescent behavior in the cockpit leads to tragedy. Now their mothers are gong to learn that there sons died of stupity.:shudder




SAFETY FIRST!!!!

 

[beleg]

First of all as i said above both aircraft were F-16s. Greek one is a blk 52+ and Turkish one is most likely a blk50 since its from from 9AJU 192 sq.

Secondly Big-E, i dont think you are in a position to judge our intelligence.

They continue to assume military aircraft do not apply to the rules which are clearly stated, I guess they don't consider an R-F4 a military aircraft.

Is not a very intelligent sentence in itself since the first part conflicts with second part.

Aegean problem is a complex problem and cannot be tied only to FIR. Starting from militarization of demiliterised islands to territorial waters and airspace problems, gray zones to FIR its a difficult situation to solve. Events like these will continiue to occur as long as problems are not solved.

Since you are hoisting the flag of a nation that shoots first and asks later you dont have right to tell us or teach us how this game is played. We Turks have been around long enough to know both politics and warfare.

 

[Big-E]

Secondly Big-E, i dont think you are in a position to judge our intelligence.

Did I judge the intelligence of the commanders of the Turk Hava Kuvvetleri who continually put their and Hellenic pilots in harms why by constantly breaking the rules of the ICAO (which they signed)? They must be unconscious then. My bad.

They continue to assume military aircraft do not apply to the rules which are clearly stated, I guess they don't consider an R-F4 a military aircraft.

I was being facisious.

Aegean problem is a complex problem and cannot be tied only to FIR. Starting from militarization of demiliterised islands to territorial waters and airspace problems, gray zones to FIR its a difficult situation to solve. Events like these will continiue to occur as long as problems are not solved.

It is not a complex problem, it is a simple matter of obeying international law! Turkey agreed to the ICAO and the FIR Athens. Considering the incident occured near Karpathos which is well inside FIR Athens, well inside Greek territorial waters and Greek airspace; there is no contest unless Turkey wants to invade Rhodes and Karpathos! Just b/c Turkey disregards her own agreements does not mean she has the right to endanger the lives of Hellenic pilots trying to enforce Greek sovereignty. I am impressed with the Hellas ability of self control. If Cuban Migs were flying over Key West I would shoot them down!

Since you are hoisting the flag of a nation that shoots first and asks later you dont have right to tell us or teach us how this game is played. We Turks have been around long enough to know both politics and warfare.

I obey the ROEs of NATO, Turkey does not.

 

[WAR]

Map of collision site.

Here is the Map of collision site, as posted by CNN on their web page.

 

[SABRE]

Greek, Turkish fighter planes shadowing each other collide over Aegean Sea



ATHENS, Greece (AP) - Warplanes from Greece and Turkey collided over the Aegean Sea island of Karpathos as they shadowed each other Tuesday. Officials said the Turkish pilot was rescued unhurt and a search was underway for the Greek pilot.

Fighter planes from the two NATO allies frequently intercept each other over the Aegean, mostly in areas of disputed airspace.


The Turkish military identified both planes as F-16 fighter jets and said the Turkish pilot, 1st Lieut. Halil Ibrahim Ozdemir, was rescued by a merchant ship. Greek authorities said a search was underway for the pilot of the Greek plane.


Authorities in Greece initially said there were two Turks aboard the Turkish plane, but later said only one was aboard. The government in Ankara only made reference to Ozdemir.


"It appears the incident occurred while the Greek plane was intercepting the Turkish jet," Greek government spokesman Evangelos Antonaros said.


Greece says its national airspace extends to 16 kilometres, but Turkey recognizes only nine kilometres - the same distance as territorial waters. Long-standing disputes over airspace and territorial rights in the Aegean have nearly led to three wars between them since 1974.


Relations between Greece and Turkey have been steadily deteriorating in recent months, despite Athens' promotion of Turkey's candidacy to join the European Union and Premier Costas Caramanalis' personal friendship with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.


Turkish Defence Minister Vecdi Gonul said his country's chief of staff was in contact with his Greek counterpart over the incident.


"An F-16 belonging to the Turkish air forces crashed in the air with an F-16 belonging to the Greek air forces and both planes fell," the Turkish military said, adding that the incident was under investigation.


The Greek Defence Ministry said the planes crashed into the sea 20 kilometres south of Karpathos.


The Greek jet was based at Souda Air Force base on the island of Crete.


Link: http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=6ece3fab-fb67-4faf-b56b-74c8d9d298e1&k=45402

Well this confirms what beleg said few posts above. The TUAF aircraft was F-16 not R-F4.

And here is a 3 page "Reuters" link (too big to post it here): http://today.reuters.com/news/newsA...RTRUKOC_0_US-GREECE-TURKEY.xml&archived=False

 

[beleg]

It is not a complex problem, it is a simple matter of obeying international law! Turkey agreed to the ICAO and the FIR Athens. Considering the incident occured near Karpathos which is well inside FIR Athens, well inside Greek territorial waters and Greek airspace; there is no contest unless Turkey wants to invade Rhodes and Karpathos! Just b/c Turkey disregards her own agreements does not mean she has the right to endanger the lives of Hellenic pilots trying to enforce Greek sovereignty. I am impressed with the Hellas ability of self control. If Cuban Migs were flying over Key West I would shoot them down!

It is a complex problem. Your very post above shows your arrogance in the subject. While Greece claims a 10 nm airspace in the aegean(despite their 6nm territorial waters. only country in the world with airspace bigger than territorial waters.) Turkey recognises only 6nm airspace and conducts flights that show in action that we dont accept their sovreignity over the region.Again i am repeating This flight as well as other Turkish exercises in Aegean and Mediterenean was reported to NATO HQ before it was conducted.

So any event which happens 16 km away from a Greek island (bigger than 6nm) is NOT Greek airspace.

Unfortunately the Greek pilot is killed. RIP.

 

[341-Phalanx]

ICAO : The International CIVIL Aviation Organization

 

[Big-E]

The Greek Defence Ministry said the planes crashed into the sea 20 kilometres south of Karpathos.

Under UNCLOS Karpathos territorial waters extend 22km, Turkey is in violation and should be sued for the loss of the Hellenic F-16 and perhaps the pilot if not found.

 

[341-Phalanx]

FIR : FLIGHT INFORMATION REGION (for civil flights)

Athens FIR is not greece air space.

 

[341-Phalanx]

22km = 13.670200206295748 miles

greek and turkish air space involve 6 miles from land or islands..

 

[Big-E]

ICAO : The International CIVIL Aviation Organization

Just b/c it is civil does not preclude the obligation of Turkish pilots to file a flight plan and notify FIR Athens of there approach. If USN pilots didn't have permission to fly over Pakistan during OPEF we would have been intercepted and shot down.

 

[beleg]

Under UNCLOS Karpathos territorial waters extend 22km, Turkey is in violation and should be sued for the loss of the Hellenic F-16 and perhaps the pilot if not found.

Turkey is NOT a part to UNCLOS thus has no need to obey the legistations or decisions in the said agreement. Please update your information!

 

[Big-E]

Turkey is NOT a part to UNCLOS thus has no need to obey the legistations or decisions in the said agreement. Please update your information!

I never said Turkey was part of UNCLOS, but Karpathos (Greece) is. I'm not going to argue this anymore but that Turkish pilot had no business being where he was and he possibly caused the death of a Hellenic pilot. Either negotiate or go to war and get it over, these so called accidents have to stop. :shudder

 

[beleg]

Just b/c it is civil does not preclude the obligation of Turkish pilots to file a flight plan and notify FIR Athens of there approach. If USN pilots didn't have permission to fly over Pakistan during OPEF we would have been intercepted and shot down.

I am bored to repeat since you dont seem to read i am repeating it last time.
Turkey reporst every exercise over Aegean or Med. to NATO HQ. When you fly over Pakistan you are IN their airspace. When you fly 16 km east of Karpat you are in International airspace. 2 different things.