Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Around 155-160 meter long and 9000-10.000 ton is the plan.
And yes, the promotionvideo looks really amateuristic. Something unacceptable for such a company like Thales Nederland.
German Navy
- Thread starter gf0012-aust
- Start date
And yes, the promotionvideo looks really amateuristic. Something unacceptable for such a company like Thales Nederland.
Planned size is 10,000 tons, about 155m length. There are some visual effects later in the video in which it looks significantly smaller than that, the weapon systems on the CG are also all oversized.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Non strike length VLS for a 10,000 ton ship, another word starting with “s” comes to mind. Can’t believe this design won’t have a SM-2/SM-6 capable Mk 41. This ship will be in the 2 billion plus range I would assume.
They could be going with a Euro long range SAM, so separate VLS for those?
It's more than the Type 125 has and the same as the Type 123. Thinking about reusing the Mk 41s from the Brandenburg.
Tactical length Mk 41 do fit SM-2MR, it's SM-2ER, SM-3, SM-6, and Tomahawk that won't. With only 16 cells, ESSM with the option for SM-2MR is probably as varied a missile loadout as they'd carry.
The ships are only intended to carry ESSM Block 2 (as "Layer 2 AAW") in the VLS. 16-cell quadpacked VLS for 64 missiles.
The ship does not provide Layer 3 (standoff) AAW or perform as a BMD shooter. That's what F124 and its future successor (F127, in planning) is for.
Highly unlikely, in particular since MKS180 will enter service before F123 is retired. There's also some peculiarities to those VLS mounted on F123.
Official answers released four weeks ago:
- These defects were resolved before final delivery by moving some fuel stores around inside the ship (at the cost of the supplier). Baden-Württemberg maintains a slight listing of 0.5° to starboard at full load, i.e. including all stores filled, which is considered "normal" and in operations of a ship is compensated for with ballast tanks and fuel use strategies.
- Interestingly in the process of this the ship actually became even heavier - there's more fuel onboard now (and yes, that translates to longer range than specified). As there is no maximum weight specified in contracts the ship is officially "not overweight". The relevant specification with regard to weight is that it "maintains its required weight reserve" and that the added weight does not critically impact other KPIs contractually agreed upon, such as speed.
- The CMS problems have been fixed and the system is officially tested on both ships in service (acceptance test for the third ship will be in January).
- The main remaining problem seems to be with the KORA-18 Package 2 RCESM passive electronic warfare system, apparently with regard to providing classification data for discriminatory target pattern selection for the RAM seeker. RAM technically works without this pattern selection, although in some firing modes it'll then not optimize attack patterns towards a specific target. Details including strategy to address this are classified of course.
The Vulcano ammunition also still isn't formally certified for use, although this doesn't have anything to do with the ship (the reason for the delay there was a 2-month bog fire caused by a Tiger helicopter firing a full load of four 70mm rocket pods that destroyed 8 km² of the Bundeswehr's main weapons proving grounds WTD91).
Certification elements other than firing tests were moved to an Italian contractor subsequently, the issue was that WTD91 had to certify the propellant (and behavior of the fuze under high-g stress testing) in live-fire shooting and moving this to a possible foreign contractor would have required an extra 9-12 months preparation and caused an estimated 8.4 million Euro cost. It was therefore decided to wait until WTD91 could restart operations in the second half of 2019. The ammunition will be certified before Baden-Württemberg goes on her first deployment in 2021.
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1. MKS180 will be commissioned in 2027. F123 will be decommissioned in 2027. That's how it works right? Is it common to retire a warship before the new one hits IOC?
2. About the MK 41 on F123s. They are very unique indeed. What's so different about them?
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
I think a lot of Navies have to retire the old ship first to free up Personal for the new ship, of course as older classes of ships retire the Trg and logistics requirements slowly wind down as well as increasing at the same time for the next class. This goes for any Military weapon system and delays in deliveries can throw out planning
So the first F123 will be decommissioned in 2025/2026 (or maybe later due to codvid) when the first F126 starts sea trials ("launch") and crew training?
1) there is no planned out-of-service date for any F123. There is a prospective likely out-of-service-date of the last unit by ca 2033 when all MKS180 are commissioned, although that all depends on availability and requirements then. The usefulness combat-wise of F123 will largely vanish in 2025 when Sea Lynx is being taken out of service (Sea Tiger doesn't fit in the hangar).
2) Whether F123 will be in service when MKS180 starts commissioning, when it hits IOC, when it hits FOC, when it's fully delivered, when options are delivered or at some other date is solely decided by whether money to operate is them is available and whether there is a requirement to keep additional ships around at that time for whatever reason. In-service times can be stretched near ad-infinitum with relatively low additional investment over operational costs.
3) Training for MKS180, like with F125, will be separate from availability of units. A complete additional "ship-on-land" (moniker "stone ship") built out of spare systems will exist for training, and crews will not be assigned fixed to one ship but rotating between all ships and the land trainer.
4) The VLS of F123 was originally modified for NSSM (with extra parts subbed in which other Mk41 don't have), then was later refitted to fire ESSM. Whether it is able to use Mk25 containers (for quadpack ESSM) is not even remotely hinted at anywhere official, but can generally be assumed to be a "no" as with all older iterations of Mk41. Even if the VLS were reusable as is and F123 were retired assume between 18 and 24 months to uninstall and refurbish the weapon system.
2) Whether F123 will be in service when MKS180 starts commissioning, when it hits IOC, when it hits FOC, when it's fully delivered, when options are delivered or at some other date is solely decided by whether money to operate is them is available and whether there is a requirement to keep additional ships around at that time for whatever reason. In-service times can be stretched near ad-infinitum with relatively low additional investment over operational costs.
3) Training for MKS180, like with F125, will be separate from availability of units. A complete additional "ship-on-land" (moniker "stone ship") built out of spare systems will exist for training, and crews will not be assigned fixed to one ship but rotating between all ships and the land trainer.
4) The VLS of F123 was originally modified for NSSM (with extra parts subbed in which other Mk41 don't have), then was later refitted to fire ESSM. Whether it is able to use Mk25 containers (for quadpack ESSM) is not even remotely hinted at anywhere official, but can generally be assumed to be a "no" as with all older iterations of Mk41. Even if the VLS were reusable as is and F123 were retired assume between 18 and 24 months to uninstall and refurbish the weapon system.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Its official now, the name of this project is changed from MKS180 to F126.
www.navalnews.com
German Navy’s MKS 180 Frigate Program Renamed F126 - Naval News
The German ministry of defense (MoD) announced this morning that the MKS180 frigate program has been renamed "Fregatte Klasse 126" or F126, which is in line with the German Navy (Deutsche Marine) typical designation for frigates.
www.navalnews.com
Formal name change isn't until Jan 1st 2021. There's contractual reasons for that.
The current description used by the Bundeswehr is "MKS180 project, the future F126 class".
Class A707 : Design concept has been overhauled to make it easier for shipyards to simply adapt a civilian design. Main change in that is allowing up to 9.5 meters draft for the tankers. Previous design asked for had maximum 8.0m draft to fit at the quays in Wilhelmshaven military port. Secondary change is slightly lowering expected cruise speed in much the same vein.
The 20,000-ton A707 ships like their A704 predecessors will remain pure fleet tankers. Diesel carrying capacity will be slightly larger (12,000 m³ vs 10,400 m³), JP8 fuel will additionally be carried and there's space for max 10 containers on deck as well as aviation facilities for a medium helo.
Class A424 : Replacement for the A423 ELINT ships, contract likely to be signed in first half of this year for delivery from 2025. Received a similar change of design - original requirement was about 84m length in order to fit at the quays at Eckernförde (submarine) base. New concept foresees ships of up to 140m length and 4,000 tons (light) displacement, i.e. staying at least in a frigate-sized concept. Accomodation for 30% more crew, although this may be partially mandated by the Navy no longer providing the EW mission crew onboard (went to CIR Force) and thus remodeling to compensate for lack of synergy effects.
Class A404 replacement (no concept number yet): Functional requirement paper is complete. New ships will mostly be significantly larger (10,000 tons vs 3,200 tons) and provide for more supplies (about 250%) and crew accomodation (200%) compared to current ships. Primary driver for larger supply capacity is a requirement to support the corvette squadron. Accomodation enlargement is partially to be able to house larger taskgroup HQs as command ships. The current ships also serve in solo presence/MIO/humanitarian-assistance roles, which is intended to be kept as a possible use for the new ships.
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This may be wrong, it probably is, but Wikipedia lists the Rhon class as the Type 704 and the Berlin class as the Type 702. But am I right to assume that the 707 class will be replacing the Rhon class as they are the older ships?
And will this class resemble the Berlin class? They look be of a similar displacement and Canada is building these ships as well. But you state that the concept has been changed, does this mean they intend to adapt the Berlin class or build a completely new design? And how far along is the program? 2024 is not that far into the future.
And will this class resemble the Berlin class? They look be of a similar displacement and Canada is building these ships as well. But you state that the concept has been changed, does this mean they intend to adapt the Berlin class or build a completely new design? And how far along is the program? 2024 is not that far into the future.
P.S. why these ship classes need replacement:
A704 : Were originally built in the early 70s as civilian tankers. Bought in the late 70s and fitted with RAS gear. Both ships are single-hull tankers, and for the past decade have only been operating based on special exceptions (double-hull tankers are required EU-wide). Have been suffering machinery problems in the last couple years as well. Primary use in the last ten years was tagging off as the default supply unit operating with the NATO SNMG1 frigate group at sea, earlier also served a similar role in OP Atalanta. Crews are civilian. Ships are not armed, naval infantry Maritime Protection Element has been embarked when necessary.
A423 : Corvette-sized electronic Warfare ships built in the late 80s. Were originally designed to reconnoiter Soviet fleets in the North Sea and Baltic. Since the 90s serve as strategic reconnaissance units with secondary communications relay function. Sensor outfit is somewhat comparable to an AAW frigate, although supposedly more multi-spectrum - at its core beyond what's upgradable it still mostly mirrors the original role though. Primary use in the last twenty years has been in electronic surveillance missions in the Mediterranean (Balkans, Libya, Syria). Under current force division the navy only provides crew and ship, operations are performed by CIR as part of their Strategic Reconnaissance Command - hence CIR also providing the mission crew onboard. The ships are nominally not armed, machine guns and Stinger launchers are carried though.
A404 : Squadron tenders for boat squadrons built in the early 1990s to a heavily modified civilian design. Have served with MCM, FAC, SSK and corvette squadrons. Support group for the specific squadron is containerized, hence ships can be switched around (the ship assigned to the SSK squadron is modified). Equipped to carry command staff and slightly expanded medical support for their squadron. Considered insufficient to support the corvette squadron - as one current primary user in that function - due to limited fuel supplies and no full RAS gear. Aviation facilities in current ships are also barebone and more along the lines of a VERTREP platform. Primary use in the last 15 years has been in support of UNIFIL MTF448 (as "base ship" at Limassol) and in humanitarian missions in the central Mediterranean. Five of the ships now form a single "support squadron" for 1st Flotilla and are not directly assigned to boat squadrons.
What the Navy is looking for are basically as-cheap-as-possible oilers replacing the two ships Rhön and Spessart in order to satisfy the NATO requirement of providing five "small logistics ships" (3 Class A702 + 2 Class A707). As usual there was some functionality creep involved, although not quite as hefty as with other projects. The original design concept was finalized in July 2019.
The A707 replacement for A704 was then tendered out, but withdrawn (this December) since initial offers would have cost 425 million Euro per ship instead of 250 million planned. In addition FSG was contesting the closed-bidder tender since they were not invited to it - applying in court that the ship are not warships in the sense of recent protectionist laws. The proposed design changes adress both issues, and it's not unlikely the rebooted new tender will be at minimum Germany-, possibly EU-wide and not limited to two specific shipyards like the first one.
A704 : Were originally built in the early 70s as civilian tankers. Bought in the late 70s and fitted with RAS gear. Both ships are single-hull tankers, and for the past decade have only been operating based on special exceptions (double-hull tankers are required EU-wide). Have been suffering machinery problems in the last couple years as well. Primary use in the last ten years was tagging off as the default supply unit operating with the NATO SNMG1 frigate group at sea, earlier also served a similar role in OP Atalanta. Crews are civilian. Ships are not armed, naval infantry Maritime Protection Element has been embarked when necessary.
A423 : Corvette-sized electronic Warfare ships built in the late 80s. Were originally designed to reconnoiter Soviet fleets in the North Sea and Baltic. Since the 90s serve as strategic reconnaissance units with secondary communications relay function. Sensor outfit is somewhat comparable to an AAW frigate, although supposedly more multi-spectrum - at its core beyond what's upgradable it still mostly mirrors the original role though. Primary use in the last twenty years has been in electronic surveillance missions in the Mediterranean (Balkans, Libya, Syria). Under current force division the navy only provides crew and ship, operations are performed by CIR as part of their Strategic Reconnaissance Command - hence CIR also providing the mission crew onboard. The ships are nominally not armed, machine guns and Stinger launchers are carried though.
A404 : Squadron tenders for boat squadrons built in the early 1990s to a heavily modified civilian design. Have served with MCM, FAC, SSK and corvette squadrons. Support group for the specific squadron is containerized, hence ships can be switched around (the ship assigned to the SSK squadron is modified). Equipped to carry command staff and slightly expanded medical support for their squadron. Considered insufficient to support the corvette squadron - as one current primary user in that function - due to limited fuel supplies and no full RAS gear. Aviation facilities in current ships are also barebone and more along the lines of a VERTREP platform. Primary use in the last 15 years has been in support of UNIFIL MTF448 (as "base ship" at Limassol) and in humanitarian missions in the central Mediterranean. Five of the ships now form a single "support squadron" for 1st Flotilla and are not directly assigned to boat squadrons.
The A702 Berlin class are multi-product AORs. Different kinda thing - especially since they'd cost considerably more.
What the Navy is looking for are basically as-cheap-as-possible oilers replacing the two ships Rhön and Spessart in order to satisfy the NATO requirement of providing five "small logistics ships" (3 Class A702 + 2 Class A707). As usual there was some functionality creep involved, although not quite as hefty as with other projects. The original design concept was finalized in July 2019.
The A707 replacement for A704 was then tendered out, but withdrawn (this December) since initial offers would have cost 425 million Euro per ship instead of 250 million planned. In addition FSG was contesting the closed-bidder tender since they were not invited to it - applying in court that the ship are not warships in the sense of recent protectionist laws. The proposed design changes adress both issues, and it's not unlikely the rebooted new tender will be at minimum Germany-, possibly EU-wide and not limited to two specific shipyards like the first one.