German Navy: Third Combat Support Ship instead of F125-Frigates?
- Thread starter Falstaff
- Start date
I think we should look at the big picture for a moment.
Germany: If I'm not much mistaken there seems to be a solution there with respect to the Russian Baltic Fleet. My guess is that it will be locked in with minefields (probably streaching from Tallinn (Reval) to Helsinki, maybe further inside. So the main problem will be to protect convoys to the Baltic countries in case Russia attacks them. This scenario has always been secondary to the Germans, so the naval aspect is possibly left to the Danes, which will be ok with that arrangement. Provided that the Germans and Poles can look after their own shores + plus lend a hand where the heat gets turned on.
The basic problem is Khalingradskaya Oblast. In case of war this area has four options:
A. Breakout to north and northeast with the object of getting Klaipeda (Libaw) and evacuate from there. In wartime NOTHING gets out of Königsberg. The minefield will be along and not across the channel.
B. Break out to the south through very, very difficult swampy terrain to join up with Russian forces in White Russia.
C. Attack Poland along the Baltic coast. Which leaves an attacker wide open for air attacks, no room for maneuvre and cut off supplylines to empty stores.
D. Surrender.
In this scenario a the relatively small Danish Division in the Baltic Corps (Polands Pommerian and 14 PzGre) will probably be the reserve leaving the option of following a counterstroke in case of the least obnoxious option for the Russian: The attack on Klaipeda OR evacuation by sea to pour in as reinforcement around Klaipeda - hoping the Lithuanian infantry brigade will buy enough time.
So the situation in the Baltic is pretty much a solved problem for the Germans.
The trick with support and supply ships is to keep those waters open for navigation and support and supply the transferred forces in the Baltic countries. How far along the coast a German force will be landed - or driven along the Baltic coast - remains to be seen. The main Russian problem is in reality: Can they hold St. Petersburg?
Netherlands: Their preoccupation during the cold war was the convoys across the Channel and the Atlantic. Today - if I'm not much mistaken - a Russian naval force will have a very hard time getting past the Norwegean Nansen-class. Again if I'm not much mistaken: Today the USNavy does not find the Greenland-Iceland-Fairisle "gab" worthy of a carrier. Maybe a submarine or two, but a CARRIER...no way. So the Dutch and Belgian frigattes are primarely seen as a backup to be thrown in either to assist the Thetis-class or the Nansen-class. Again the fundamental problems of the Dutch and Belgian Navy is solved.
In the Mediterrainian there is a great need for the frigattes to whack various mental cases in North Africa. Plus there is an anphibious need.
Germany: If I'm not much mistaken there seems to be a solution there with respect to the Russian Baltic Fleet. My guess is that it will be locked in with minefields (probably streaching from Tallinn (Reval) to Helsinki, maybe further inside. So the main problem will be to protect convoys to the Baltic countries in case Russia attacks them. This scenario has always been secondary to the Germans, so the naval aspect is possibly left to the Danes, which will be ok with that arrangement. Provided that the Germans and Poles can look after their own shores + plus lend a hand where the heat gets turned on.
The basic problem is Khalingradskaya Oblast. In case of war this area has four options:
A. Breakout to north and northeast with the object of getting Klaipeda (Libaw) and evacuate from there. In wartime NOTHING gets out of Königsberg. The minefield will be along and not across the channel.
B. Break out to the south through very, very difficult swampy terrain to join up with Russian forces in White Russia.
C. Attack Poland along the Baltic coast. Which leaves an attacker wide open for air attacks, no room for maneuvre and cut off supplylines to empty stores.
D. Surrender.
In this scenario a the relatively small Danish Division in the Baltic Corps (Polands Pommerian and 14 PzGre) will probably be the reserve leaving the option of following a counterstroke in case of the least obnoxious option for the Russian: The attack on Klaipeda OR evacuation by sea to pour in as reinforcement around Klaipeda - hoping the Lithuanian infantry brigade will buy enough time.
So the situation in the Baltic is pretty much a solved problem for the Germans.
The trick with support and supply ships is to keep those waters open for navigation and support and supply the transferred forces in the Baltic countries. How far along the coast a German force will be landed - or driven along the Baltic coast - remains to be seen. The main Russian problem is in reality: Can they hold St. Petersburg?
Netherlands: Their preoccupation during the cold war was the convoys across the Channel and the Atlantic. Today - if I'm not much mistaken - a Russian naval force will have a very hard time getting past the Norwegean Nansen-class. Again if I'm not much mistaken: Today the USNavy does not find the Greenland-Iceland-Fairisle "gab" worthy of a carrier. Maybe a submarine or two, but a CARRIER...no way. So the Dutch and Belgian frigattes are primarely seen as a backup to be thrown in either to assist the Thetis-class or the Nansen-class. Again the fundamental problems of the Dutch and Belgian Navy is solved.
In the Mediterrainian there is a great need for the frigattes to whack various mental cases in North Africa. Plus there is an anphibious need.
I don't think Russia is the big factor in the equation.
Still I don't see the use of a fire support ship like the F125 as it is proposed.
The 155mm gun and those N-MLRS to support an "invasionforce" of 5 speedboats ? I guess they are part of our new secretive plan to conquer the world. Not to talk about the problems of the 155mm ammo confronted with the moist and salty climate...
Additionally I think it is damn stupid to have no real ASW ship after the F122 retires.
Concerning K-130 and U-212: Yes, only 5 respective 6 are on fix order, but 15/8-12 have been voiced as the mid therm requirenment. Tough I have to admit nobody really believes in those numbers.
At them moment talks about the second batch of K130 are underway. If there is no agreement between the industry and the German procurement agency for the F125, I would bet the next batch of K130 is a done deal.
Instead of a LPD or LPH I think RoRo ships that are leased to a private company are more than sufficient for our needs. Note that the RoRo ships contracted by the Royal Navy where build by the German Flensburger Werft.
Still I don't see the use of a fire support ship like the F125 as it is proposed.
The 155mm gun and those N-MLRS to support an "invasionforce" of 5 speedboats ? I guess they are part of our new secretive plan to conquer the world. Not to talk about the problems of the 155mm ammo confronted with the moist and salty climate...
Additionally I think it is damn stupid to have no real ASW ship after the F122 retires.
Concerning K-130 and U-212: Yes, only 5 respective 6 are on fix order, but 15/8-12 have been voiced as the mid therm requirenment. Tough I have to admit nobody really believes in those numbers.
At them moment talks about the second batch of K130 are underway. If there is no agreement between the industry and the German procurement agency for the F125, I would bet the next batch of K130 is a done deal.
Instead of a LPD or LPH I think RoRo ships that are leased to a private company are more than sufficient for our needs. Note that the RoRo ships contracted by the Royal Navy where build by the German Flensburger Werft.
The first time I thought the INCAT catamarans would make good amphibious ships was when Condor II hit Blackjack Rocks during sea trials and became a tourist attraction for weeks as it sat there high and dry off the Tasmanian coast, just south of Hobart.Who needs amphibious ships?
We are so skilled we can do landing operations with our MCMs!!!
(It stranded today on the coast of Norway)
nfloorl: It was impressive the way it got itself so high out of the water and later when it was finally pulled off it was able to survive a tow back to Hobart and get patched up. The owner, who was on board at the time, went ahead with the purchase, which I also thought was remarkable.
Cheers
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #47
Whoa! Norway, here we come again Angela isn't that innocent at all, if you ask me But now listen to this: The Standing NATO Mine Counter Measure Group 1 (which the Grömitz is assigned to) is under command of a belgian: Commander Serge Ots. I think we just revealed a subtle belgian plan utilizing our ships to conquer Norway.
Concerning the K-130: According to an marineforum-article from 2004 originally 3 lots of each 5 ships (or boats) were planned. I too doubt all these will be ordered.
I would love to share all the articles I collected about the K-130, F-125 and U-212A with you, but they are all german! However, if you'd like to have them, just contact me.
As to the U-212A: The government stated some time ago that no further subs would be ordered until 2013. So the two batch 2 boats will be the last on order for some time to come. I don't know (and don't have the time to research for the next 4 weeks) if that means some of the remaining U-206 will stay in service until then.
I totally agree with you that a dedicated LPD is rubbish for the german navy. I too would go for mix of an enhanced capability EGV and the F-125s along with land attack capabilities for the U-212's. Should be sufficient for our purposes.
And I agree that the F-122's need a replacement that is more capable than the planned F-125 in terms of ASW.
BTW: The IDAS-system seems to be well on track, in november they performed a demonstration in front of officials.... IDAS will provide a limited land attack capability too
http://www.dmkn.de/1779/ruestung.nsf/cc/WEBS-6YCGLU
Angela isn't that innocent at all, if you ask me But now listen to this: The Standing NATO Mine Counter Measure Group 1 (which the Grömitz is assigned to) is under command of a belgian: Commander Serge Ots. I think we just revealed a subtle belgian plan utilizing our ships to conquer Norway.Concerning the K-130: According to an marineforum-article from 2004 originally 3 lots of each 5 ships (or boats) were planned. I too doubt all these will be ordered.
I would love to share all the articles I collected about the K-130, F-125 and U-212A with you, but they are all german! However, if you'd like to have them, just contact me.
As to the U-212A: The government stated some time ago that no further subs would be ordered until 2013. So the two batch 2 boats will be the last on order for some time to come. I don't know (and don't have the time to research for the next 4 weeks) if that means some of the remaining U-206 will stay in service until then.
I totally agree with you that a dedicated LPD is rubbish for the german navy. I too would go for mix of an enhanced capability EGV and the F-125s along with land attack capabilities for the U-212's. Should be sufficient for our purposes.
And I agree that the F-122's need a replacement that is more capable than the planned F-125 in terms of ASW.
BTW: The IDAS-system seems to be well on track, in november they performed a demonstration in front of officials.... IDAS will provide a limited land attack capability too
http://www.dmkn.de/1779/ruestung.nsf/cc/WEBS-6YCGLU
Thanks for the info.
In my eyes MIDAS should be a priority project, especially with all this talking about War on Terrorism going on.
BTW, the first MUSS system has been installed prior to their Lebanon mission on the frigate "Schleswig-Holstein".
Interesting article.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/barnybezel/GROMITZMLG27.jpg
In my eyes MIDAS should be a priority project, especially with all this talking about War on Terrorism going on.
BTW, the first MUSS system has been installed prior to their Lebanon mission on the frigate "Schleswig-Holstein".
Interesting article.
And the new MLG 27 has been installed on the MCM "Grömitz"
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/barnybezel/GROMITZMLG27.jpg
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #49
Very interesting indeed. Let's hope they won't need it.
So the spearhead of our invasion forces has it... very suspicious.
Waylander, your unit wasn't by any chance located at Munster?
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #51
In the recent Marineforum edition there is a speech from Vizeadmiral Nolting, who is "Generalinspektor der deutschen Marine" (don't know the english translation, but it's the highest position of a navy guy in the ministry of defence.
He says some things about the future purchasing plans. I'll give a brief summary in english:
- F-124: with induction of the "Hessen" the project is finished (probably no 4th ship), full operational by 2008
- F-125: priority for the next years; parliamentary process expected to be finished this summer; 4 ships to enter service from 2014
- K-130: five ships to enter service from may this year
- U-212A: two further boats approved by the Parliament, makes 6 units which is not enough
- MH-90: another priority programme as complement for the Lynx and replacement for the Sea King; very urgent requirement
- Third EGV advanced to FY 2008, due to enter service by 2011
He says some things about the future purchasing plans. I'll give a brief summary in english:
- F-124: with induction of the "Hessen" the project is finished (probably no 4th ship), full operational by 2008
- F-125: priority for the next years; parliamentary process expected to be finished this summer; 4 ships to enter service from 2014
- K-130: five ships to enter service from may this year
- U-212A: two further boats approved by the Parliament, makes 6 units which is not enough
- MH-90: another priority programme as complement for the Lynx and replacement for the Sea King; very urgent requirement
- Third EGV advanced to FY 2008, due to enter service by 2011
Full article: http://www.marineforum.info/HEFT_3-2007/Nolting/nolting.html
You should maybe try to elaborate your opinion a little bit more.
You produced a huge amount of oneliners in many threads and this doesn't helps the discussion.
So why do you think that 4 (Or maybe just 3) F124 are not enough for the german navy?
You produced a huge amount of oneliners in many threads and this doesn't helps the discussion.
So why do you think that 4 (Or maybe just 3) F124 are not enough for the german navy?
First Germany has got important naval history.
ok I shold explain my idea.4 ships are not enough for me I think becuse it comes to me very little number of amount ships.
I don't know is Germany would like to oparate in the overseas but I think that if any country would like to do some operations in the overseas the country should be has got huge number of ships like United kingdom have.
Germany built 3 F124s they are multi mission froigates and they are mostly for surface to air missions. maybe 3 is enough for Germany because think that France has got 2 Cassard ships and they have got same goals.
But if we look at the ships which is originally designed for surface to surface missions it shows to us this navy's power. For example England has got 13 Type 23 ships they are good for surface to surface missions.
I want to tell 4 is not enough for Germany.Because I think Germany want to do some operations in the overseas.if any country want to secure and keep only their homeland 4 is enough but if they want to overseas missions 4 is not enough.
Cheers
ok I shold explain my idea.4 ships are not enough for me I think becuse it comes to me very little number of amount ships.
I don't know is Germany would like to oparate in the overseas but I think that if any country would like to do some operations in the overseas the country should be has got huge number of ships like United kingdom have.
Germany built 3 F124s they are multi mission froigates and they are mostly for surface to air missions. maybe 3 is enough for Germany because think that France has got 2 Cassard ships and they have got same goals.
But if we look at the ships which is originally designed for surface to surface missions it shows to us this navy's power. For example England has got 13 Type 23 ships they are good for surface to surface missions.
I want to tell 4 is not enough for Germany.Because I think Germany want to do some operations in the overseas.if any country want to secure and keep only their homeland 4 is enough but if they want to overseas missions 4 is not enough.
Cheers
contedicavour
New Member
Thanks to Falstaff for the very useful article.
I wouldn't be too worried about the decision to procure only 4 F125 FFGs so far : the 4 F123 FFGs are modern multi-role FFGs that can still be in service in 2020. When it will be the time to replace them a new batch of evolved F125 is likely to be built.
The German Navy would thus have by 2020 :
> 3 AAW area defence F124
> 4 multi-role F123
> 4 brand new land-attack F125
> 5 big well-armed K130 corvettes for Baltic Sea operations.
Compared with today's 3 F124, 4 F123 and 8 F122, my 2020 scenario is positive enough as it will allow the Germans to better operate overseas while still effectively patrolling Baltic & North Seas.
On the SSK side, we may say 6 U212 aren't enough because we compare with the 12 Type 206 being replaced. On the other hand, UK will be down to 8 SSN, France is already down to 6, Italy and Spain are likely to end up with 4 each, Norway is down from 12 to 6, Sweden is down from 10 to 5, and Denmark quit SSKs for good.
cheers
I wouldn't be too worried about the decision to procure only 4 F125 FFGs so far : the 4 F123 FFGs are modern multi-role FFGs that can still be in service in 2020. When it will be the time to replace them a new batch of evolved F125 is likely to be built.
The German Navy would thus have by 2020 :
> 3 AAW area defence F124
> 4 multi-role F123
> 4 brand new land-attack F125
> 5 big well-armed K130 corvettes for Baltic Sea operations.
Compared with today's 3 F124, 4 F123 and 8 F122, my 2020 scenario is positive enough as it will allow the Germans to better operate overseas while still effectively patrolling Baltic & North Seas.
On the SSK side, we may say 6 U212 aren't enough because we compare with the 12 Type 206 being replaced. On the other hand, UK will be down to 8 SSN, France is already down to 6, Italy and Spain are likely to end up with 4 each, Norway is down from 12 to 6, Sweden is down from 10 to 5, and Denmark quit SSKs for good.
cheers
Well said Contedicavour.
Exactly my thoughts despite that I don't want the F125 to be so specialised on land attack.
I would like to see it more as a true multirole FFG with enough air defence for self defence (ESSM and RAM) and good ASW equipment because they have to replace the F122 in this role.
Exactly my thoughts despite that I don't want the F125 to be so specialised on land attack.
I would like to see it more as a true multirole FFG with enough air defence for self defence (ESSM and RAM) and good ASW equipment because they have to replace the F122 in this role.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #59
Waylander, you won't like it: I scanned the web for some information about the LPD for the german navy because I really wondered about the article I translated at the beginning from "Der Spiegel" (which I consider to be trustworthy in most cases).
I now think that we will indeed see a LPD in german services.
1. Evidence
I came across another speech by Vice Admiral Nolting in front of the "German Atlantic Society" on February 13th this year in which he talks about the Bundesmarine as a means of security policy. He says that in order to close the gap of a secure overseas deployment capability there is a requirement for a whole new type of ship for the german navy, which he calls Joint Support Ship. (can be found here (german): http://www.dmkn.de/1779/ruestung.ns...dedcc1b4075b898cc125728f00351944!OpenDocument, page 10)
2. Evidence
On the official Bundesmarine-website I read about the "Basis See"-concept and I found the following:
The article says that the Marine lacks the sea transport component which allows it to deploy forces without coastal infrastructure and under threat and to return them. It also says that such a "secure military sea deployment capability" would enable us to keep troops ready prior to a mission in a certain region without already entering a country. It says that this capability is a basic requirement which has to be pursued with priority!
Here's the original text I tried to translate above:
Obviously such a LPD isn't included in the fleet planning until 2015... at least I guess so.
And still, information policy of the Bundeswehr is more than foggy. Although it's rather easy to get some information about planned procurements it's a pain in the a** to search for information regarding future fleet planning. Not a single word about the fate of the FAC or the U206As. Only one thing is for sure: The sheer number of combat units will decrease to 69 in 2019 (105 in 2000, 85 as of today).
However, we're spending a lot of money until 2015:
All of the F122s and the F123s are receiving the common combat systems upgrade and MLU at the moment which will allow them to be effective beyond 2015 and 2025 respectively (http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/news/jdw/jdw051107_1_n.shtml). In addition the F122s are to receive the new TRS-3D radar (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f122/). So at least the 8 F122s will remain powerful surface combatants until they are replaced by the 4 F125s from 2014 and the F125s combined with the "second-tier" K130s will have to fill huge footsteps.
The MH-90 is a priority program as is the F125. We'll have the 3rd EGV in 2011 and the two evolved U212s by 2013/14.
I wonder how we'll pay for a LPD and all the related stuff?
I now think that we will indeed see a LPD in german services.
1. Evidence
I came across another speech by Vice Admiral Nolting in front of the "German Atlantic Society" on February 13th this year in which he talks about the Bundesmarine as a means of security policy. He says that in order to close the gap of a secure overseas deployment capability there is a requirement for a whole new type of ship for the german navy, which he calls Joint Support Ship. (can be found here (german): http://www.dmkn.de/1779/ruestung.ns...dedcc1b4075b898cc125728f00351944!OpenDocument, page 10)
2. Evidence
On the official Bundesmarine-website I read about the "Basis See"-concept and I found the following:
The article says that the Marine lacks the sea transport component which allows it to deploy forces without coastal infrastructure and under threat and to return them. It also says that such a "secure military sea deployment capability" would enable us to keep troops ready prior to a mission in a certain region without already entering a country. It says that this capability is a basic requirement which has to be pursued with priority!
Here's the original text I tried to translate above:
(can be found here (german again): http://www.marine.de/01DB070000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26WFD7X828INFODE)
Obviously such a LPD isn't included in the fleet planning until 2015... at least I guess so.
And still, information policy of the Bundeswehr is more than foggy. Although it's rather easy to get some information about planned procurements it's a pain in the a** to search for information regarding future fleet planning. Not a single word about the fate of the FAC or the U206As. Only one thing is for sure: The sheer number of combat units will decrease to 69 in 2019 (105 in 2000, 85 as of today).
However, we're spending a lot of money until 2015:
All of the F122s and the F123s are receiving the common combat systems upgrade and MLU at the moment which will allow them to be effective beyond 2015 and 2025 respectively (http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/news/jdw/jdw051107_1_n.shtml). In addition the F122s are to receive the new TRS-3D radar (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f122/). So at least the 8 F122s will remain powerful surface combatants until they are replaced by the 4 F125s from 2014 and the F125s combined with the "second-tier" K130s will have to fill huge footsteps.
The MH-90 is a priority program as is the F125. We'll have the 3rd EGV in 2011 and the two evolved U212s by 2013/14.
I wonder how we'll pay for a LPD and all the related stuff?
I really don't know how to pay for such adventures. Not out of the current budget. With an increase in budget or by financing the LPDs (And all the related stuff which worries me much more than the LPD itself) with an extra budget this might be possible but there are still many more urgent investments in our forces.
On the one hand they are cutting our numbers of A400M in the future and scrapped the idea of purchasing some C-17s but on the other side they think about LPDs.
And especially the Heer needs more money. They are bearing the brunt of our oversea missions but I think I made it clear here before what is more needed in our Bundeswehr instead of some shiny new LPDs.
But as often our leadership concentrates onto some dubious new capabilities instead of making sure that the Bundeswehr gets at least all the new shiny toys ordered in the past. The speed at which things like IdZ, Tiger, NH90, A400M, Boxer, MG4, etc. are reaching is ridicilous.
Not to talk how training of the original tasks (full scale combined arms warfare for example) decreases while so many troops are pinned down regularly by oversea deployments.
But thanks a lot for your efforts to get these informations!
On the one hand they are cutting our numbers of A400M in the future and scrapped the idea of purchasing some C-17s but on the other side they think about LPDs.
And especially the Heer needs more money. They are bearing the brunt of our oversea missions but I think I made it clear here before what is more needed in our Bundeswehr instead of some shiny new LPDs.
But as often our leadership concentrates onto some dubious new capabilities instead of making sure that the Bundeswehr gets at least all the new shiny toys ordered in the past. The speed at which things like IdZ, Tiger, NH90, A400M, Boxer, MG4, etc. are reaching is ridicilous.
Not to talk how training of the original tasks (full scale combined arms warfare for example) decreases while so many troops are pinned down regularly by oversea deployments.
But thanks a lot for your efforts to get these informations!