German Navy: Third Combat Support Ship instead of F125-Frigates?

Waylander

Defense Professional
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The Navy has stated that it sees the ASW threat as greatly diminished compared to the Cold War, and hence is reducing ASW assets. Not exactly by that much, if you consider the above. Don't forget that most of the customers for AIP diesel subs are considered "Allied" too (at least for German, French and Swedish subs, and those three still corner the market), or we wouldn't sell them there in the first place.
Hmmm.
In the end Argentina for example used U209s and the Brits were happy about them not being used against the expeditionary fleet (For whatever reasons).
We also try to sell our subs to Pakistan what I would also not consider as one of the most stable countries out there. The same goes for Egypt.

I would not wonder If we or our closest allies again face german subs in the future.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Hmmm.
In the end Argentina for example used U209s and the Brits were happy about them not being used against the expeditionary fleet (For whatever reasons).
We also try to sell our subs to Pakistan what I would also not consider as one of the most stable countries out there. The same goes for Egypt.

I would not wonder If we or our closest allies again face german subs in the future.
Germany almost managed to sell Type 209s to the Shah in Iran just before his overthrow ;) so I do agree with you !
AIP is a great force multiplier but in the end it all comes down to training, maintenance and the efficiency of the embarked torpedoes/missiles and sonar systems.
Whether the sub has been underwater for X or Y days (ie with or without AIP) it will anyway be a dangerous foe with today's 50-km range torpedoes...
However I do agree with those navies that reduce ASW assets in favour or AAW and amphibious. Threats are evolving and ASW isn't the priority anymore. Especially in places like the Mediterranean.

cheers
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Absalon isn't a civilian hull. She's built according to one of the new commercial standards for naval construction. The major ship classification societies all seem to have rules for naval ships nowadays, & their use by navies is spreading.
The MILSTDs Odense Shipyards had to obey for Absalon are a laugh compared to "real" navy standards - they were pretty much steel quality, shock absorbtion, and load factors or something like that. Not even comparable to the "civilian hull" rules the German Navy set out for the Type 702 ships - those already were "navy civilian" (by German standards), and roughly doubled the pure hull price compared to a commercial freighter of the same size.

Of course, when buying foreign, we'd also have to figure in the economic cost too. If you calculate the taxes and fees flowing back to the government, plus the "saved cost" of not having 5,000 or so workers on the street that directly or indirectly are employed by this... let's just say, you'll reach a per-unit-cost that leaves buying an Absalon in Denmark in the dust. Rough guess: below 200 million. if not 150 million. easily.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Hmmm.
In the end Argentina for example used U209s and the Brits were happy about them not being used against the expeditionary fleet (For whatever reasons).
We also try to sell our subs to Pakistan what I would also not consider as one of the most stable countries out there. The same goes for Egypt.

I would not wonder If we or our closest allies again face german subs in the future.
because in the simplest terms they weren't in any war like state they hadn't been refitted they were using out of date torpedoes which failed to detonate they were slowly falling apart and their batteries weren't charging properly and it had a green crew
 

Waylander

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I should have said for various reasons.
I just wanted to say that there were multiple reasons for them being not used properly.

Sorry, for not making this clear. :)
 

Galrahn

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Verified Defense Pro
However I do agree with those navies that reduce ASW assets in favour or AAW and amphibious. Threats are evolving and ASW isn't the priority anymore. Especially in places like the Mediterranean.
It does appear many nations have chosen sea based air defense and expeditionary warfare capabilities over underwater warfare capabilities, but I for one am not yet convinced in the wisdom of this.

While not questioning Germany specifically, because when you factor in its own submarine fleet the Germans have a higher percentage of ASW and MIW ships than most Navies (I count the Gepards because they can lay mines), I think ASW is still the most important aspect of Naval warfare. At the end of the day, the numbers overwhelmingly point out that undersea warfare, the combination of mines and submarines, account for more damage and sinking's at sea than any other type of naval warfare over the last century by an overwhelming, enormous margin, including the modern era since 1980. Ironically, historically Germany is a major contributor to those statistics.

I don't see any evidence that this calculus has changed, because although there are fewer submarines today than ever before, there are fewer sea based aviation platforms than ever before as well. It won't matter if it is an SSK or SSN, in the future if a hostile submarine getll probably constitute the largest loss of life at sea in a single battle in over a half century.

It is hard to imagine any scenario, including the US vs China scenario, where a Naval task force ever faces an air force capable of a similar result, as ships will not be dispatched as a major task force without air superiority. Anyone familiar with major exercises, including fierce exercises like Neptune Warrior know what I am talking about.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It won't matter if it is an SSK or SSN, in the future if a hostile submarine getll probably constitute the largest loss of life at sea in a single battle in over a half century.
It would have to nail an aircraft carrier or amphib for that, as far as military ships go. Otherwise, General Belgrano is the "mark" unlikely to be passed (with 323 dead), the only ship ever sunk by a SSN, only 25 years ago.


As for the F125: it will still carry two helos. And if there's still an absolute must to deploy one to a hostile ASW scenario, you could quite conceivably -and pretty fast - a) procure some towed sonar (doesn't have to be anything pricy like LFTASS) and deploy it out the stern bay for the underwater ROVs the F125 is supposed to have and b) leave two of the boats at home, and bolt Mk32s in their bays.
 
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Galrahn

Defense Professional
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It would have to nail an aircraft carrier or amphib for that, as far as military ships go. Otherwise, General Belgrano is the "mark" unlikely to be passed (with 323 dead), the only ship ever sunk by a SSN, only 25 years ago.
Your assuming there would only be one ship sank, I am assuming there wouldn't be 1 ship floating.

In naval warfare, the most dangerous thing at sea is a crafty commander with a competent crew on a capable submarine. Over time, I have come to honestly believe that statement is absolutely true.
 

contedicavour

New Member
The main interest of SSNs in a Falklands-style conflict is their speed of deployment and availability of a serious inventory of SSMs.
At 25+ knots 3-4 SSNs could surround a naval expeditionary corps fast and target it with several SSMs from different directions while remaining safely away from the bulk of the expedition's ASW screen.
A couple of SSKs trying their luck at 20kn maximum against a fast moving surface task force would probably not intercept it and would have to approach the task force's ASW screen too much. A heroical though useless mission.
That's why a couple of Type 209s (even if armed with decent torpedoes) wouldn't have made a difference in 1982.

cheers
 

Waylander

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Maybe a nice little forward deployment in front of the Falklands while lurking around in shallow water and waiting for the amphibs to come could have made a difference.
It is not as if the subs would have needed to hunt the task force in the open ocean.
The destination of the brits was known.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Maybe a nice little forward deployment in front of the Falklands while lurking around in shallow water and waiting for the amphibs to come could have made a difference.
It is not as if the subs would have needed to hunt the task force in the open ocean.
The destination of the brits was known.
Sorry but I disagree with this. The site of the amphibious landing wasn't known, and the Brits suprised the Argentinians by landing to the West of the Western island instead of in front of Port Stanley where they were expected. If the 209s had been stationed in front of Port Stanley they would have missed the amphibs and would have found themselves smack in the middle of the ASW screen of the Type 21s and 22s.

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
Ah, thanks for that.

I stand corrected. :)
No problem, you're the expert on land (especially on board your Leo2A5) and I'm more at ease above/under the water ;)

By the way, do you have any data on range of Kormoran 2 (all that I can find is the 35 km of the Kormo 1) and is it still a valid alternative to the air launched Harpoon, Penguin and Mavericks ?

cheers
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
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You've asked this already in this thread. ;)

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6401&page=2

Our answer was 40km+.

I would still rate it very good for brown+green water engagements.

When you get your target data by Orions or AWACs far away the smaller range compared to Harpoon or RBS-15 could bite you in the ass.

But the range is better than the one of Maverik or Penguin.

With 220kg the warhead of Kormoran 2 is much bigger than the one of Maverik and Penguin.

I have no idea if the tracking capabilities of Kormoran 2 are better or not.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I have no idea if the tracking capabilities of Kormoran 2 are better or not.
Kormoran 2 employs a late 80s active radar seeker (10 years "newer" than the one on Harpoon). I'd say hell yeah. Plus some pretty good ECCM.

This is from Jane's (Missiles & Rockets):

The (11) missiles were fired at 2.5 m2 targets deployed by the Westerwald. These were protected by a layered defence system. SAAF Cheetah fighter aircraft provided an outer-layer combat air patrol (CAP), while the German Navy Sachsen-class F-124 air defence frigate FGS Hamburg provided air-defence command and a middle-layer defence using its Standard ER missile system.

The German Bremen-class (Type 122) frigate FGS Rheinland-Pfalz and the South African Navy's Valour-class frigate SAS Amatola provided inner-layer defence using SeaSparrow and Umkhonto missiles respectively, but only the Rheinland-Pfalz fired live rounds.

At least one Kormoran would seem to have performed better than expected, requiring Rheinland-Pfalz to engage the missile using its Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) point-defence system.
(Note that this was not a saturation attempt; the missiles were fired sequentially in multiple attack runs; also, this was a live-fire exercise in 2006, not a simulation)

side note: Jane's has it wrong of course, an F124 has Standard MR, not ER. SeaSparrows used by the F122 were NSSM.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Thks Waylander and Kato.
I wonder why Germany is interested in RBS15 Swedish SSMs since it already has Harpoons and air launched Kormo 2 with a range of 40+ km.
Either update the harpoon to latest block, or buy SCALP or a navalized version of Taurus ?

cheers
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
RBS-15 Mrk.III and IV are not less capable than Harpoon Block II and an upgrade and rebuilding of old Harpoons might not be cheaper and less capable than buying new RBS-15 Mrk.IV.
And we already have Mrk. III in service (On the K130). Buying additional RBS-15 is better for maintenance and logistics than having two totally different kinds of AShMs.

Kormoran needs a replacement in 10 years.
The production line is no longer open so new builds in such a small quantitiy is not very economical and we would need to invest additional R&D into the project to get them on par with new RBS-15.
 

contedicavour

New Member
RBS-15 Mrk.III and IV are not less capable than Harpoon Block II and an upgrade and rebuilding of old Harpoons might not be cheaper and less capable than buying new RBS-15 Mrk.IV.
And we already have Mrk. III in service (On the K130). Buying additional RBS-15 is better for maintenance and logistics than having two totally different kinds of AShMs.

Kormoran needs a replacement in 10 years.
The production line is no longer open so new builds in such a small quantitiy is not very economical and we would need to invest additional R&D into the project to get them on par with new RBS-15.
Ok I understand. Makes sense. Still I'm surprised a country with such a big stake in MBDA buys Swedish missiles off the shelf (although I imagine there must be some offset deal behind this acquisition).

cheers
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Ok I understand. Makes sense. Still I'm surprised a country with such a big stake in MBDA buys Swedish missiles off the shelf (although I imagine there must be some offset deal behind this acquisition).

cheers
I think the RBS.15 is now being developed jointly, so the Germans aren't quite buying it off the shelf.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think the RBS.15 is now being developed jointly, so the Germans aren't quite buying it off the shelf.
The Mk4 upgrade, yeah. Jointly by Diehl BGT Defence and Saab Bofors Dynamics.

Diehl BGT Defence is also responsible for marketing and production of the Mk3 version (since 1998, so not really a new thing) for certain markets including Germany, and Diehl is also the prime contractor for the German Navy for maintenance and repair for all RBS.15 systems.

The current missile line-up in the German Navy (Kormoran 2, Harpoon Block 1C, MM38 Exocet) will all expire shelf-life in the next 5-15 years - and, in the current blocks, will also lose supplier support around the same time. RBS.15 Mk4 will be introduced sometime around 2013-2015 with the first F125, so about "just in time".

Hence an entirely new line-up is needed anyway, and the choice was pretty much between the current stuff, subject to requirements: MM40 Exocet Block 3, Harpoon III, RBS15 Mk3/Mk4, and NSM.
 
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