German Navy: Third Combat Support Ship instead of F125-Frigates?
- Thread starter Falstaff
- Start date
contedicavour
New Member
Yes, spending 70 million for 5 guns may seem outlandish but the only alternative is buying cruise missiles (Tomahawk or SCALP Naval) which cost a lot more and are more politically sensitive to the leftist bits of the governing coalition in Germany.
cheers
Newest rumour set for the F125 has the ships equipped with a 48-cell Mk41 VLS with a mix of SM2 and ESSM, potentially also some kind of cruise missile in there. B+V- and TKMS-released CGs support the addition of VLS in current studies. Displacement has grown to 6,800 tons (!), crew has grown to 140 (incl. aircrew) + 50 infantry.
This is rapidly going from "stabilization frigate" to "colonial light cruiser" now in my opinion. only needs twice the endurance and range, and we're practically there.
This is rapidly going from "stabilization frigate" to "colonial light cruiser" now in my opinion. only needs twice the endurance and range, and we're practically there.
I always wondered were all the money would go before I have seen these news. I mean 650 million € for one ship is defenitely NOT cheap.
And with 6800 tons they are goin to be the biggest frigates ever.
Even the F124 is classified as DDG by the US.
But destroyer is such a bad word...
And with 6800 tons they are goin to be the biggest frigates ever.
Even the F124 is classified as DDG by the US.
But destroyer is such a bad word...
Yeah - if rumour be true & they'll turn out as Kato says, just call 'em cruisers. Seems apt. And while you're at it, change the flag to red white & black stripes, bring back the Hohenzollerns (ain't there some bloke called Georg Friedrich out there?), & invite Togo, Kamerun, Tanganyika etc. to associate themselves with Germany. Considering the economic benefits, they might agree.I always wondered were all the money would go before I have seen these news. I mean 650 million € for one ship is defenitely NOT cheap.
And with 6800 tons they are goin to be the biggest frigates ever.
Even the F124 is classified as DDG by the US.
But destroyer is such a bad word...
Personally, i doubt some of the rumours though, especially regarding the size of the VLS.
Maybe a 32-cell with growth potential to 48-cell for when Germany actually has cruise missiles for the system (Taurus 2000 anyone?). AAW-only would never fly, we don't really need 8 AAW destroyers with almost no other large units.
The 6,800-ton rumour seems pretty solid - especially considering that in the last two years the concept studies have grown from 5,000 to 5,400 to 5,600 to 6,000 rather quickly.
Maybe a 32-cell with growth potential to 48-cell for when Germany actually has cruise missiles for the system (Taurus 2000 anyone?). AAW-only would never fly, we don't really need 8 AAW destroyers with almost no other large units.
The 6,800-ton rumour seems pretty solid - especially considering that in the last two years the concept studies have grown from 5,000 to 5,400 to 5,600 to 6,000 rather quickly.
The pictures you linked to appear to show 4 blocks of VLS cells, which would mean 32 if the blocks are standard 8-cell modules.
Taurus 2000 would be expensive to develop. Why not throw the French some crumbs?
We went our own way with the air launched Taurus (In direct competition to Scalp/Storm Shadow) and I doubt they now want to go now with a foreign system.
In terms of "we just buy our own stuff" we are nearly as problematic as the US or France in sectors we have industry capabilities.
In terms of "we just buy our own stuff" we are nearly as problematic as the US or France in sectors we have industry capabilities.
contedicavour
New Member
It's a shame that we can't harmonise such systems (we're all one way or another buying from the companies behind MBDA...). If full harmonisation had been preserved Germany, the UK and Italy could deploy joint squadrons of Tornado IDS - MLU around the world. Let's at least hope that Typhoon Batch 3 will be (built, first of all
) more harmonized.cheers
Its not a rumour, but a fully official statement made by Thyssen-Krupp in their recent press release confirming the contracts with the government.
The VLS on the other hand is still without confirmation and I really doubt that these vessels will get SM-2, although the price per unit would justify such a move. Considering the rather weird plannings and ideas about shipbuilding in Germany in recent times (K-130, the whole F-125 design process with Monarc and MLRS) however I wouldnt be surprised, should the F-125 arrive with no VLS at all (typical "fitted for but not with"-solution). Time will tell.
If they actually last the planned two-years-in-a-row on a mission, that's already worth a good part of that money.They better put some really interesting toys into them.
For this amount of money and for the sice of that thing I want to see a really good multi-role FFG (Or DDG for other nations
Not really these days. Sure, you could probably buy four FREMMs plus four Absalons for the same price. But that'd mean integrating yet another C3 system. And staffing twice the number of hulls. And missing some aspects of the F125 program. LCS? Too small, and the program is too failure-prone (plus US all ship classes in the last 30 years have had a record of developing problems with the hulls after 20-25 years). Or a few more F124? Not needed within the mission frame of the Bundesmarine, we have enough theater AAW destroyers. A couple Meko A200s tailored to fit the F125 program? You'd arrive at the exact same, presumably.
Btw, as for the propulsion of the F125, it's designed to keep service cost down. Supposedly the F125 will be far cheaper to operate per mile than a F124 or F123. Fuel and maintenance is the thing that costs money, not acquisition.
Sure, i'd love for a rebuild of let's say four to six more F123 to happen, then fit the entire class of 8-10 ships with LFTASS, ESSM, RBS-15 Mk3 and some other goodies, and buy two LPDs or so. That's possible with the same 2.6 billion euro btw. But that's not within what the Bundeswehr wants nor needs really.
Adding some small kaliber guns und a cvilian propulsion isn't really that revolutionary. Maybe the larger cold storage depots are the reason for the impressive price sticker ? Or the microwave ovens for the innovative instant meals are that expansive ? The high-tech watercannons ?
With the F122 gone, we don't have a capable ASW vessel. AIP diesel subs sell pretty good these days.
How does the Marine want to operate in littorals without a a robust ASW capability ? A 127mm could be fitted on older frigates, too. I mean that is everything the F125 brings to the table as it seems. The fittet Harpoons will be the old ones taken from F-122. So no addtional land attac capability.
And if we really want to buy such a "monitor" we could as well order Absalons, they offer more firepower, more internal volume, the same civilian propulsion and that a fraction of the costs. Oh, maybe it would even be some money left to fit such fency water cannons for fun purposes.
With the F122 gone, we don't have a capable ASW vessel. AIP diesel subs sell pretty good these days.
How does the Marine want to operate in littorals without a a robust ASW capability ? A 127mm could be fitted on older frigates, too. I mean that is everything the F125 brings to the table as it seems. The fittet Harpoons will be the old ones taken from F-122. So no addtional land attac capability.
And if we really want to buy such a "monitor" we could as well order Absalons, they offer more firepower, more internal volume, the same civilian propulsion and that a fraction of the costs. Oh, maybe it would even be some money left to fit such fency water cannons for fun purposes.
F123 and F124 ships all carry sonar plus torpedoes plus ASW helos. The flying part of the ASW fleet even got a modest upgrade recently with the P-3C replacing the Atlantique. And then there's still our own submarine forces that are very much capable of hunting other subs.
The Navy has stated that it sees the ASW threat as greatly diminished compared to the Cold War, and hence is reducing ASW assets. Not exactly by that much, if you consider the above. Don't forget that most of the customers for AIP diesel subs are considered "Allied" too (at least for German, French and Swedish subs, and those three still corner the market), or we wouldn't sell them there in the first place.
The maximum rated armament of an Absalon is 36 ESSM + 16 Harpoon (max), true. I have some doubts of the capability of the electronics outfit though (anyone here know how CEROS-200 performs on ANZACs?), at least in comparison to the watered-down F124 outfit that the F125 is supposed to get. Harpoon on F125 is an interim solution only - the German Navy is aware that factory support for the Harpoon Block 1C will run out by the end of next decade, and is looking to replace all Harpoons in the fleet by then.
The Danish ship price does not include any StanFlex modules (Harpoon/NSSM/ESSM including launchers) btw, since those are taken from other ships. The only weaponry bought for the Absalon class are the 127mm guns (and those were just re-used upgraded ones anyway) and the 35mm CIWS - of which Denmark will only buy 6 out of 10 for the 5 FS/PS ships and rotate them between ships.
Doubt it really. The flexdeck of the Absalon is 915 m², and only in about half of that two decks high. Once you discount accomodation for 50 people, two ISO 20-ft containers, the OP Center for the infantry troops and not to mention the four RIBs, you won't have enough space left for the underwater ROVs that the F125 has earmarked space for, let alone anything else. And of course you can only launch one RIB at a time, since there's only one crane and opening at the stern.
F125 has CODLAG, Absalon has CODAD. not the same, nor would i rate CODLAG "civilian" really. CODLAG allows you to place the generators virtually anywhere in the ship, and to run the ship very silently, so this is somewhat important.
Not if we place German military standards on the hulls. Those tend to double the price compared to a civilian hull (as used on the Absalons), minimum. Then add slightly pricier electronics, and of course German wages in construction, and you're pretty quickly at around 500 million per unit again. Add the usual subsidies to the German shipbuilding industry, and we're at the same price as for a F125.
Absalon isn't a civilian hull. She's built according to one of the new commercial standards for naval construction. The major ship classification societies all seem to have rules for naval ships nowadays, & their use by navies is spreading. So far, mostly for support ships & amphibious vessels.