Future of Russian Military

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting you say that.
It might very well be coloured by the usual pride people have for their own country's products but usually the products of eastern germany were regarded as very good overall in the east.
It also had to do with the living standard which was way higher in Eastern Germany compared to Poland and Checheslovakia.
I am not saying that there weren't enough fields were other Warpac countries excelled but overall Eastern Germany was one if not the most advanced country in Warpac (Not including the Sovjet Union itself).

When one had the chance to get it's hands on western stuff did it. This at least was true for most of the stuff one could buy.
Most eastern products were just not competitive enough be it because of their quality, because western stuff was more advanced, shiny or because their fabrication was much too inefficient.
 

nevidimka

New Member
So the Russian military plans to buy out remaining factory stocks from all the manufacturers.

http://lenta.ru/news/2009/02/11/new/

And plans to renew the armed forces equipment by around 50% by 2016. Also many ships that have been permanently docked awaiting repair for years are due to being repairs soon

http://lenta.ru/articles/2009/02/11/airforce/

Finally this one is about aviation reform. There will be three main air commands that are regional, and one strategic air command. Air rgts and squadrons will be turned into airbases, which I recall earlier reading will have 3 squadrons each (36 airplanes). GBAD will be reformed into air-defense brigades. Both of these types of formations will be under direct command of the operational commands.

Talks a little about the proposed Il-112B medium transport airplane, and modernizing existing aircraft in particular a new radar for the MiG-31. It's unclear whether he means the BM program or something else. Ka-52 are due to start deliveries this year, the Mi-28N first delivered last august (Torzhok, 4 of them in a training unit) is also planned.

Total defense procurement funding is at 4 trillion rubles for the next 3 years.
Buy what old stocks exactly? MiG's?
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Did you live in the former East Germany?
Nope, went east for the first time in late '89.

even though we could get German Govt assistance to set up in eastern germany, it was still better for us to get things done in poland.
Which isn't all that surprising, considering literally everyone who was young and that had the money and skills went west immediately after 1990. Some 2 million, about 15% of the East-German population - just in the period 1990 to 1993. Add at least a quarter million skilled "guest workers" who were sent "home" in the same period for the most part.
What was left was raped by the West German industry buying it up, and still hasn't pulled up to the West in any regard. A very big problem was also the sudden vast increase in wage costs for companies - wages were suddenly raised considerably through tariff agreements that went beyond establishing PPP. East Germany is estimated to have had a per capita income that was 40% of West Germany in 1990 - until 1998 this was raised to 80%. The second sector - Industry - in East Germany went bottom-up within months, and between 1989 and 1993 cut some 70% of its workforce. Only agriculture with a workforce cut of 80% was even worse off. The East German GDP shrunk by 35% between 1989 and 1991, and only reached 1989 levels again around 2002.
The whole thing is somewhat euphemistically summarized under "work efficiency adaption of East Germany".

[hmmm, i just noted that the stuff below gets a bit long... skip it if you want to :rolleyes:]

As far as high-tech industry goes, a lot was simply cut in 1989/90. For example, Toshiba closed its plant in East Germany. RFT, the national East German electronics company conglomerate, nowadays still exists as a business association and consists among others of one of Germany's premier TV production companies (TechniSat), parts of Alcatel SEL (communication electronics), and a number of companies in broadband cable and other communications business venues. The East German aircraft industry was taken over immediately in 1989/90 by DASA/Airbus and nowadays belongs to EADS. The semiconductor industry (which delivered to the entire WarPac, pretty much anything that couldn't be imported) collapsed under international competition, and finally went bottom-up when a take-over deal with Intel fell through in 2003. The East-German computer industry was a bit more successful btw; a lot survived by itself for a number of years until taken over by Western companies such as Siemens and Samsung. VEB Carl Zeiss Jena doesn't really need an explanation. Probably the most successful East-German company after reunification. Same for Bergmann-Borsig, bought up by ABB and today still active under Alstom. East German motorcycles were so competitive and successful that they were already in GDR times exported to West Germany. The East German car industry - despite the ridicule for the Trabant and Wartburg models in the West - was taken down. AWE (Wartburg) was closed and replaced in the same town by a new Opel plant in 1992 (picking up the skilled workers), Sachsenring (Trabant) still exists as a component supplier after a series of corruption cases. The East-German agricultural machine industry (which directly competed with the Soviet one for notority) collapsed after it was split into dozens of companies, with the biggest one taken over by CASE International Harvester, and their plant surviving till 2004.

Precision Machinery, i.e. Niles Machine Tools, was taken over entirely - as they formed a holding post-reunification - by a West German competitor, and still exists today, albeit on a far smaller scale. Niles is a good example for the "drain" btw: the Kombinat had 22,000 employees in 1989 - and only 1,600 remaining by the end of 1990. Niles was the premier precision machinery producer in the entire WarPac since the 50s btw (way beyond any Soviet exports), although in the 80s exports to WarPac countries went down, with increased exports to the West compensating for that.
Their stuff was so good btw that i've worked at a major West German company in 2005 that was still equipped for certain machinery entirely with Niles products bought in the late 80s (and not as a cost-saving measure, but for the quality).

The rather huge shipbuilding industry in the GDR (8,400 workers in 1984), specialized in fishing vessels, collapsed when the (Russian) main private customer went bankrupt in 1993, with some 40 ships (standardized very large 7500t trawlers) still in the books to be built; the Volkswerft had produced over 350 large trawlers (above 80m), about 500 mid-sized trawlers (over 50m) and over 600 smaller cutters and loggers for the WarPac countries - with pretty consistent order books for the whole 40 years, gradually moving on to bigger ships over time.
Nowadays they produce Panamax container ships and offshore supply trawlers btw.

What really collapsed totally were steel works and the chemical industry, both using outdated machinery and production processes and way too much manpower.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Sometimes I am evenly shocked and amazed what kind of detailed posts you provide within a very short timeframe. :shudder

Blühende Landschaften...

In the end the reunification is an interesting lesson and might be the biggest warning to South Korea for a possible reunification with the north.

As you said the problem was that the East German companies which could have been saved with some intelligent management were literally raped by the west.

One of the biggest problems for the Sovjet Union and the other Warpac countries was that mostly there was some better competitor on the world market which was well established there when the wall fell down.
Trying to get a share of the world market while trying to go from socialism to open markets and while the home market goes boom is much too difficult for nearly any company even if one has a rather good portfolio of products and R&D.
All this while the west runs into your hometurf on it's search for new markets and cheap bargains...
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Buy what old stocks exactly? MiG's?
It doesn't specify. It makes it sound like they mean everyone. I'm guessing this means the Tu-160 components left over, the MiG-29 and 31 components, etc. Any spare finished models that are left.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Btw: Even the disastrous chemical industry was snatched up; today Bayer, Linde, Akzo Nobel, Degussa and Solvay are the big players in Bitterfeld - all "Western" companies. As someone who lives near the primary plant of the largest chemical company in the world i'm a bit... anxious about that. I drove by Bitterfeld ("the dirtiest town in Europe") in 1989 - not a pretty sight back then.

Waylander: Just creative googling with the right keywords.
 

Tudor

New Member
It is not only technical or about quality

Beside the real technical and real quality issues which supposed vanished most of the east-German industry, and we can extrapolate to entire eastern bloc, there is another more deadly factor that interfered after the collapsing of the Berlin Wall; purification.
The people from both sides of the wall must Know that one system makes only high-quality-intelligent-products the other one is not capable to be anywhere close. They must Know that is in their own good to close most of the plants judging their performances with selective western weights. Also don’t let them stay together too much they might think and act improper. They must Know that one system is good the other one is bad.
For already 20 years eastern people are walked in the desert for purification.
 

nevidimka

New Member
Nope, went east for the first time in late '89.


Which isn't all that surprising, considering literally everyone who was young and that had the money and skills went west immediately after 1990. Some 2 million, about 15% of the East-German population - just in the period 1990 to 1993. Add at least a quarter million skilled "guest workers" who were sent "home" in the same period for the most part.
What was left was raped by the West German industry buying it up, and still hasn't pulled up to the West in any regard. A very big problem was also the sudden vast increase in wage costs for companies - wages were suddenly raised considerably through tariff agreements that went beyond establishing PPP. East Germany is estimated to have had a per capita income that was 40% of West Germany in 1990 - until 1998 this was raised to 80%. The second sector - Industry - in East Germany went bottom-up within months, and between 1989 and 1993 cut some 70% of its workforce. Only agriculture with a workforce cut of 80% was even worse off. The East German GDP shrunk by 35% between 1989 and 1991, and only reached 1989 levels again around 2002.
The whole thing is somewhat euphemistically summarized under "work efficiency adaption of East Germany".

[hmmm, i just noted that the stuff below gets a bit long... skip it if you want to :rolleyes:]

As far as high-tech industry goes, a lot was simply cut in 1989/90. For example, Toshiba closed its plant in East Germany. RFT, the national East German electronics company conglomerate, nowadays still exists as a business association and consists among others of one of Germany's premier TV production companies (TechniSat), parts of Alcatel SEL (communication electronics), and a number of companies in broadband cable and other communications business venues. The East German aircraft industry was taken over immediately in 1989/90 by DASA/Airbus and nowadays belongs to EADS. The semiconductor industry (which delivered to the entire WarPac, pretty much anything that couldn't be imported) collapsed under international competition, and finally went bottom-up when a take-over deal with Intel fell through in 2003. The East-German computer industry was a bit more successful btw; a lot survived by itself for a number of years until taken over by Western companies such as Siemens and Samsung. VEB Carl Zeiss Jena doesn't really need an explanation. Probably the most successful East-German company after reunification. Same for Bergmann-Borsig, bought up by ABB and today still active under Alstom. East German motorcycles were so competitive and successful that they were already in GDR times exported to West Germany. The East German car industry - despite the ridicule for the Trabant and Wartburg models in the West - was taken down. AWE (Wartburg) was closed and replaced in the same town by a new Opel plant in 1992 (picking up the skilled workers), Sachsenring (Trabant) still exists as a component supplier after a series of corruption cases. The East-German agricultural machine industry (which directly competed with the Soviet one for notority) collapsed after it was split into dozens of companies, with the biggest one taken over by CASE International Harvester, and their plant surviving till 2004.

Precision Machinery, i.e. Niles Machine Tools, was taken over entirely - as they formed a holding post-reunification - by a West German competitor, and still exists today, albeit on a far smaller scale. Niles is a good example for the "drain" btw: the Kombinat had 22,000 employees in 1989 - and only 1,600 remaining by the end of 1990. Niles was the premier precision machinery producer in the entire WarPac since the 50s btw (way beyond any Soviet exports), although in the 80s exports to WarPac countries went down, with increased exports to the West compensating for that.
Their stuff was so good btw that i've worked at a major West German company in 2005 that was still equipped for certain machinery entirely with Niles products bought in the late 80s (and not as a cost-saving measure, but for the quality).

The rather huge shipbuilding industry in the GDR (8,400 workers in 1984), specialized in fishing vessels, collapsed when the (Russian) main private customer went bankrupt in 1993, with some 40 ships (standardized very large 7500t trawlers) still in the books to be built; the Volkswerft had produced over 350 large trawlers (above 80m), about 500 mid-sized trawlers (over 50m) and over 600 smaller cutters and loggers for the WarPac countries - with pretty consistent order books for the whole 40 years, gradually moving on to bigger ships over time.
Nowadays they produce Panamax container ships and offshore supply trawlers btw.

What really collapsed totally were steel works and the chemical industry, both using outdated machinery and production processes and way too much manpower.
Wow, thanks for the huge information. That was an eye opener on what happened to the Former East Germany industry.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well, for the most part the transition went as following:
- Huge east-German Kombinat (usually 15,000+ workers) gets split up into literally three or four dozen small companies, often just a single plant specializing in one specific product or component
- the now single plants attempt to compete both with each other and with West German and Western European companies operating at a higher level and with far more coordination
- at least three-quarters of these new companies collapse within two or three years
- those plants surviving usually lose at least half their workforce to compensate losses
- those workers who see some chance to find work in other places move away, usually west (back then, this affected both male and female workers; this changed later by the mid-90s, with mostly young women leaving the East since then)
- the surviving plants are either bought up by Western competitors or attempt to fusion into larger, competitive companies in a few cases

This pretty much happened across the board. Industry, Agriculture, Services. And not only in the former GDR, but also in other Eastern-European countries.

In the Soviet Union and the following CIS, afaik pretty much the opposite happened? That is, the large industry combinates weren't split up in most cases, resulting in huge business entities dominating the market in their specific branch with their monopoly, often creating some sort of power base for their "oligarch".
 

Tavarisch

New Member
Woah, since when was this a Russian/Soviet Economy thread? :)

I see it's relevance to the topic though. Poor Economy = poor Army = incapable defense.

Nevertheless, seeming as this is a Russian Army thread, I had to ask..... What is the current condition of the 2000 T-64s in Russian Army reserves? Seeing as the Ukrainian upgrade modules for these things return it to their former glory. The BU Bulat especially. If you didn't know any better, you'd probably think it to be a T80U.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Bulat is the T-64BM, and is an upgrade of the T-64B. And similar external appearence doesn't mean similar characteristics. The reserve T-64's are probably going to remain in long term storage until they get scrapped.
 

Wall83

Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #155
I must say that Russia is a country that saves on alot of things.

In a tv-show (cant rembember what) about crossing Russia they entered Moscow and there they past a military storage facility, there were about a hundred of old T-34 parked in the open. They probably never will be used again, but hey lets save them just in case.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well, other countries park them on training grounds to have something with a realistic silhouette to shoot at...
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Eckherla already tried to say it politely. One cannot take such a graphic seriously.

Does anybody here really thinks that the Russians got their hands on M829A3 rounds and were able to fire them from a L/44?
Or did they got the actual protection data from current US Abrams versions?

These numbers can actually be total BS as much as being totally correct.
For me they also look like they really like wanted to make the Ts look better than they actually are.

For example M829 is just slightly able to penetrate a T-72A. (I assume they mean frontal turret armor).
Wishfull thinking?
 

Tavarisch

New Member
Eckherla already tried to say it politely. One cannot take such a graphic seriously.

Does anybody here really thinks that the Russians got their hands on M829A3 rounds and were able to fire them from a L/44?
Or did they got the actual protection data from current US Abrams versions?

These numbers can actually be total BS as much as being totally correct.
For me they also look like they really like wanted to make the Ts look better than they actually are.

For example M829 is just slightly able to penetrate a T-72A. (I assume they mean frontal turret armor).
Wishfull thinking?
Yeah, I know. It really seemed like BS to me too. I mean come on, since when did T-72As manage to knock off M829s ?

OR, we could be totally underestimating the abilities of a T-72A. However, these numbers seem very unlikely.

And, personally, I don't think it would be impossible for the Russians to get an L/44. If you work for a defense firm and buy one legally, I don't see a problem. They'll probably have NATO representatives on station to make sure that the Russians don't steal anything.

Then again, which particular company would want to sell an L/44 to a Russian?
 
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