Well Russians/soviets practically invented the modern IFV idea, and BMP-3 is still the most effective IFV availbe. But i think you mean more of these modern wheeled IFVs?, They seems to be the current trend in the international arms market. But Russians are not so thootless in this area either. The BTR-90 featuring BMP-2 type turret with 30mm 2A42 gannon, and there are also prototypes with the same turret as in BMP-3, so i woudn't say russians loosing in this area...quite the opposite.
Future of russia defense industry?
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It's probably more accurate to say that the Russians have more emphasis on lighter calibre equiped wheeled AFV's - whereas the Euro/US approach is to equip up guns of up to 120mm on their AFV's. The Euros are also going to wheeled expeditionary armour at the expense of MBT's. All of the NATO MBT forces appear to be going through a concenus reduction in absolute numbers.Gollevainen said:
The other issue is that Europe is shifting to a doctrine of Expeditionary and Light Force mobility due to ERRF. The US is fattening up its Expeditionary capability as well, but is not reducing MBT's.
Good point gf0012. It's always good to remember everytime when comparing russian military hardware to west (or any other) that russians have completely different tacticks and filosofies when it comes to weapon systems. Many times some russian system may roughly remind some western system and then we make these rapid comparisons. We usually forget that the russian system, altough similar may have been made completely different ideology in mind. So we easily judge it bad and inferior as it fails to achive the standarts set for the western systems.
Good example of this is soviet aircraft carriers. Althoug similar size of many western carriers like the french De Gaulle or Clemencau class, Kiev class is far less impressive in aviation assets. But the soviet Kievs are mented for completely different task than any western carriers.
Note: The above carrier comparison isen't without it's own odds, like i've stated in my aircraft carrier thread, the soviet carrier development is way more complex than it in first apperance might seem.
Good example of this is soviet aircraft carriers. Althoug similar size of many western carriers like the french De Gaulle or Clemencau class, Kiev class is far less impressive in aviation assets. But the soviet Kievs are mented for completely different task than any western carriers.
Note: The above carrier comparison isen't without it's own odds, like i've stated in my aircraft carrier thread, the soviet carrier development is way more complex than it in first apperance might seem.
russians would be signing a deal to set up a missile defence grid for india worth 10billion dollars ,any idea what abm missile they can offer(is the s-400 or s-500 ready?).
here is the link:
http://defenseworld.net/defexpo2006/news/india_russia_contract.htm
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73
here is the link:
http://defenseworld.net/defexpo2006/news/india_russia_contract.htm
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73
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chinawhite
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Do you know the amount of investment that has gone into russian industry after the fall of the soviet union?. its about 50-70billion maximum. In effect using the same methods and industries the soviets were using. The industrial steel mills are still using soviet practises and the energy sector is not recieving large western investment. This equals a industry which is still using soviet tecniques and still using soviet technology and qute likey soviet era materials and equpment.Gollevainen said:
What were the soviets know for?. Steel production and heavy industries. Most of these after the soviet collapse were closed down or turned to limited production because they were inefficent or were obsolete. even some factories from the 30s were still operational during this time right after the fall of the soviet union. Russia is nothing closing on par with the western world economic wise nor money wise. I not sure about this but i am sure russias old commerical system is still in place where once governmetn factories are still dominat and have a monoploy on russias production while chinas development rest on competition which is driving new discoveries because compaines and organisations realise that in order to compete the have to spend to compete
My bad that one. I was refering to the Klubs other name alfa which there are two of them. Both are classifed as SS-27 missiles and one was developed from the grant and one (klub) is a different missile
It has nothing to do with russias future defence policy. stricly speaking its about exported weapons not weapons russia will design for herself. Numbers are that that matters in the subject at hand not what russia wants to design for her own needs. They design what the market wants not the other way around. Just like the Mig-35 for india. india set out some sets and russia modifled it for them. Atually thinking about it most of the exported russian equipment has been modifled to suit the user. The bottom line is russia is still using inventions of soviet times to develop her defense industry. The AL-41F from reports is still using the fan blde technology from the AL-31 but was enlarged to allow a larger air flow. It is ingenious to it because it saves developing something more revolutionary or even evolutionary but it is still the same basic technology. And to lower weight the russians jsut some components to compsotie structure to increase the thrust to weight ratio
Because you were talking about their established customers. Not actually about the hating the US part. Even those people which hate america have other very good sources in other countries. There is no division between russia and US when it comes to arms sales anymore. In the near future (20 years) you will see chian being more in the market place. Chinese equipment appeals to third world countries because of their simplicity and their cheapnest like former soviet equipment but this comes with a flexible payment plan like barter deals which are more attractive to third world nations while russia will want hard currency so she can spend it on RnD
Someone that he isn't?. Showing a graph to someone which clearly doesn't have a clue about the current situatin is showing off?.Dont use that tone with me because i dont point out your post and ways you like to think yourself as being smarter.
Ok likes do the maths here. Lets just say the very unlikey 6% growth for the whole time unitl it cathces up with say germany which is growing at 1%. how fast do you think russia will catch up?. By that time china is going to be a very established power and russia in the defense industry will have fallen behind because of the lack of investment or RnD. Thats simple logic to me because the USSR surely did not develop because it was spending less but spending more. What i see is most countries do not actually buy new equipment but buy second hand euipment. If you think about the numbers you will find that the actual equipment produced will not meet nearly as much as the required numbers. The largest spenders on defence are western countries and asian countries while the rest of the world has not found the need to spend large on defense. And in the near future i do not see that as a posibilty of africa doing a enourmas arms race or south america in a massive arms race
And in the 80s and 90s chinas equipment was at least 20-30 years behind the west and a little under russia. When you play catch up you dont redesign the wheel you buy the wheel. Theres only a limited distance russia can carry china there because of its own inferioty compared to the west china will have to develop new equipment to evole. Inovation is not the ey but money is.
China had very advanced designs in aircraft bombers ships and submarines for the age they were designed in but were forced to take the cheaper and easier path to build weapons. in the 60s her defence budget was about 6billion and couldn't fund large projects like new aircraft designs or tank designs or ship designs but was forced to copy soviet designs because the situation didn't allow china to have time to develop her weapons. the50s- 60s were the threat of american invasion while the 70s-80s were the threat of soviet invasoin and the first priority was not to get a advantgae in weaponary with the soviets but jsut have enough weapons around. The soviet threat was large with her moblie divisions which is why the group armies were created. One field army was designed to fight a soviet moblie divions and like i said arming these group armies were prioties not allowing them to have a advantage. Just like Mig-21s are still being built just to fill the numbers even thoe there are more capable fighters or even why the Ming calss were still being built a few years ago
While you see in the 90s to now china has developed her own equipemnt using some russian technology just to even the gap created by the lack of spending on new equipment during the 80s. China only began is moderisation in 1979 in limited numbers just to imporve some equipment and the way chian is now is getting to the russias techniogical level and then getting her own level.
chinawhite
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The difference is Venezuela is a oil rich country and the rest of the region are poor countries. Now in these last 30 years which country has brought new equipment which was modern?. argentina lost the flasklands and would have been expected to up-build for another round. They want to but theres no money. The whole south america has no sercuirty threats nor do they pocess natiosn which will threaten them. Venezuela might not be a stable country at the mommet but south america do not fear them but treat them as heros. This place is where europens sell their weapons and if you go check out a equipment list there is a lot of french influence thereGollevainen said:
Burma and bangladesh as chinese buyers and so is thailand. Indonesia also recently bought some chinese equipment something about missiles anti ship or ballsitic im not to sure but off my head they did buy some. Vietnam has brought a grand total of 4 planes in the last few years and i think they were in a contract to recieve some second hand tanks
Iran has here own fighters in development with russian technical help. This includes russian avonics and russian R-77 misile supposly featured on her Shafaq and Azarakhsh planes. The suadis wouldn't be left to fall since america needs that oil and other countries in the middile east are well off with their cizitens not paying any tax. Wasted money?. yes but when the oil is gone they wont have enough money to buy russian planes. In the missile east theres a large Anti-american sentiment but also a very large anti-russian sentiment as well just depending on your country
But like i said they wont come in just buy from a russian factory but joint-ventures or production lines with-in ther country like indias Su-30MKI which is costing india 23million a piece and the BrahMos and other equipment. India has some very ambious plans like a indegenious BVR missile her own stealthy aircraft. indigenioius submarines and her own MBT tank which will be the future rumoured arjun II
China has not made a major order for russian weapons in a while excluding the Il-76 which cannot be made in china. The purchases china have made are spare parts and equipment that was ordered before hand. J-1s Yuan HQ-9 missiles. The real russian weapons that china brought were brought when chian didn't have capability to make things herself. Sovernys were brought just to fill the gap in blue ocean capbility and were ordered when china did not have the Type-52B/C. the kilos were ordered way back when china did not yet ahve the yuan The S-300 was brought when china did not have the HQ-9. THe last one is debateble because some sources say its just a licensed produced on while some say its a different version
While in reailty russia could only let her military budget grow at 6% but if they wanted to it could grow more but that puts pressure on a economy which has not had stable growth so for now and the future ahead i dont see russia explanding in any direction
chinawhite
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will buy?. that somes pretty sure to me
TP. if you read the purpose of the articles my reasoning is that russia will not export full systems anymore but be left exporting licenses or be in joint ventures
While you might believe this but i dont
AL-31F are engines not weapons and i outlinedthem being weapons which the russians will fail not spare parts
Mi-171 does seem like a possiblity but something more on the lines like a future helicopter would come to mind better
Highly unlikey. the reason being china does not need the capability of the actual system but just the radar and maybe the seeker. Both the S-300 and S-400 have "claimed" capabilities to shoot down LO targets while china did buy some low atititde missiles designed to kill cruise missiles. Im not to sure of the name but it was part of the moving level defense it being the lower sectiontphuang said:
HQ-16?. The only mention of it i ever read is from missle threat and a golbal article which jsut copied their inofrmation. Do you really have something besides missile threat because it has been wrong on many occasions. ANy defense reports etc?. And this is only reported as a joint venture which i said the russians would be left with.
TP. if you read the purpose of the articles my reasoning is that russia will not export full systems anymore but be left exporting licenses or be in joint ventures
And for certain?. That carrier in my opinoin would not be able to be made advablie for service simply because oh its age and lack of equipment. Paint job yes servicble condition unlikey. The more recent chit chat has been for a TVC J-10 instead of the Su-33 because of the difference in size and its ability to take off and land in a smaller area because of its canards and TVC.
While you might believe this but i dont
The AN-70 was designed as a freighter and the IL-76s are being purchased now which would tip the scales very heavily considering that CAC is providing the Y-9 which is more what the PLAAF wants because it like the C-130 in size and capabilites.
AL-31F are engines not weapons and i outlinedthem being weapons which the russians will fail not spare parts
IFV depends on your future doctrime. You dont buy a IFV to access its capabilites when it doesn't suit your needs. China has pretty much drowned herself with all these new designs in IFV and other equipment
Mi-171 does seem like a possiblity but something more on the lines like a future helicopter would come to mind better
chinawhite
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I am talking about the whole system. each missile is just a evolution of the next system. the medium ones using the same motor with a little different control fins while the larger one is a S-125 class missile which is the S-300 with a new stageturin said:
Good morning there another day for hot depating it seems to be, so lets get started...
Again The issue isent how Russia would cathc up whit others or compare, its about wheter Russian weapon industry is par whit its own economical system. And the reality is that its far ahead, one of the most livelyest part of the whole economy. Remember, the you started this thread about questiniong Russians weopon industry's future....
No it isent. After the brake down most factoyes were either shut down or sold commercial, creating the oligarks. Nowadays the situation is heading towards government controll again, with most visible examples beeing the Yukoil and independent TV stations.
Again, that has nothing to do whit the issue...Its not about comparision, but general 'living conditions' of Russian arms industry. You cannot deny that there are those in current world and relevant to Russians future devlpment, there would be some in the future.
read above...
But then we go to my examples and your brave attempt to deny once again everything I post...
1.)
Didnt you read what i wrote. Latin america AFTER the bolivarian revolution, not in its current and expecially NOT in its past reaches. Do you honestly think that leftist power hegemonye inside US 'home intrests' circle hasent got any 'security' threads...comon, dont need to fall into sillynes. Conversations would be lot nicer if we could agree whit each others in some points and threfore drop out useless parts, not to try and find something to contradict in any possiple things we say??
2.)
Yes, the tanks came from Finland and that deal ruined one wery intresting opportunity to me and my father&brother to make out money to start scrapping them, but thats another story...
Burma and Bangladesh have bougth Russian stuff as well, and currently it seems that they simply cannot afford these, but as I said, this is to find potential from the FUTURE. So therefore it requires a bit of imagination of how different regions MIGTH envolp...
3.)
When the oil ends there, everything relevant to this thread ends also so no point of going that far. But I predict that US cannot keep itself there much longer. The next or the one after thatn campaing and US is going to get its fingers burn and thats starts an avalance... US is in its last breaths
4.)
But if there is military alligmnent, things migth not go on for normal market economys ways. Offcourse Russian per centage drops, but not completetely. I think China will go on for Russian stuff for years from now, as soon as something comes out. There is the Carrier program, which China cannot cope itself, (but more on that in the eternity project, PART III of my carrier thread...:type :rwb :lam )
india, In other hand is too unpredictable, as there isent so determent tyranny on rule and no far fetched strategyes...as soon as the degression hits, its bye bye US toys and good evening, for Russia
chinawhite
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I made the thread i think i know what my point is.Its about russias ability to compete in the future arms market not about how it is connected to russias economic growth. thats the topic you brang up. Gollevainen please stick to the topic i made and dont tell me why i made a threadGollevainen said:
Just like my post said without the mention of the oligarks. But the oligarks being the elitist they are didn't spend there money on new equipment to compete with the western products in the world but stuck to proven methds to keep up the monoply they already have.
It was your brave attempt of making a opinoin which would seem correct which i did debuke. the problem with this is people generally dont think along the same paths and when one has a different opinion you dont say their wrong because you have a different opinon. Some of the things i dont agree with you but i dont call you a idiot for not agreeing with me
And any other indication it affects other countries?. Because Venezulas economy has depended on one sustance to support the country there were peopel which worked for the oil compaines and one which owned those compaiens. If you see in other south american countries you will find they are more evenly balanced comapred to Venezulas. And these countries economies are dynamic but they are starting from a small base and will take time to develop to form better things. Why do countries need arms?. to defend themselves. and why do you think south american countries will go though a big arms race or even a small arms race. Brazil has recently decided to moderized its mirages instead of buying new ones. this is south americans largest economy
Have they?. Maybe insunifficent things but nothing like what china sells to them. China at this point is aligned with burma and bangladesh in its sting of pearls stratgery. None of these countries buy russian planes beause russian planes are expensive and not needed. Not every country wants to buy russian equippment just because its cheaper and more capable. Like i said before the worlds arms trade is not governed by market place regulations. China seels to them at a cheap price which is normally though barter trade and with the growth of chinas own defence industry i see them growing with china since they are part of chias overall stratergy
Yes for experience but the indications are for a conventional carrier instead of the ski-jump one. Yes when russia makes a breakthough china might buy some but i wouldn't imagine that china would be large amounts. Amounts enough to test and see what makes it work and if chinas version is better or worst. But i doubt russia has the leverage to make china buy up front like it did with the Su-27s and S-300 missiles. I am not saying russia will not sell anything but im saying it would have massive sucess like the peak of the soviet age and the 90s which each year saw growth in the defense industry
I do agree that india is unpreidictable but it has never been connected to just one source. Even from the years of russian dominace there was still always other countries like france britian and a smaller extent germany. But with the indian economy "supposly" booming i dont think it will happen soon enough to help russia with a large amount of cash flow. Anyway india seems to have taken to the US very kindly to try balance off china which amny indians still see as their main enemy
Settle down fellas. This is starting to turn a bit cranky. There have already been 4 posts locked this week - I'd hate to see more get chopped before we hit the weekend.
well you cannot discuss over economic related matter by outcluding the economical and political situation in Russia. It isent just connected to the matter, but totally relevant of it. You seee, perspective my dear boy, dont look figures if you dont know where they came. What possiple other way there is to determ future of russian defence industry than look it by its dialogue whit economic and political factors of Russian soicety.
well we have discussed this topic to its death in the past PM rallyes in that other forum so lets not ruin the thread going there once agains. Can we do that?
You just dont get it. BOLIVIA, BRASILIA, VENEZUELA, CUBA...what these countryes have in common?
I speak about future prospects of Russian arms deal so therefore about FUTURE aspects of latin america and guess what the trend has been lately?
Again you see economical sotuation out of its contest and its dependency of political climate and that climate is heading for very purificating rain strom...
So if you dont know the basic inventoryes of these countryes Im not going to bother argue whit you over matters you dont know much...
We cannot predict anything about future chinese carrier program, exept that Varyag has great part in it. To gain carrierborne experience isent just like byuing a new weapon and train conscript to use it in two year time table. Its decades of hard trying and missjudgments for china as it has been so to everyone starting seaborne aviation under its own. Russia, whit its similar experiences allready have so much to offer to China that it just simply cannot pass it by.
but otherwise you are saying same thing than me, so is this a good sing?
chinawhite
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you ignored a large part of my previous posts, why even bother continue this since you to ingored the last one also?
..........
No, explain to me Gollevainen why polictics matter one bit in russias case, of economic growth?Gollevainen said:
No we haven't
nothing
Pffff
..........
I ignored all that you said something that i agreeded also. You see unlike you, i like to always came up whit conclusion over some thread not just argue over arguing sake. So when ever i leave the subject its couse its useless to talk about it, or you have answred my guestions.
Well you are smart boy and as you are so certain in that other thread about Marxism faults, you propaply also know what the dialectic materialism means in the economical matters. But if you dont understand I just say briefly: Economics are completely dependaple of political situation and likewise, they are two aspects of one bigger image. Defence industry is just part of that, but whit more clearer accent of showing its main movements and changes.
But If you really dont understand this, Im not going to continue this any longer, I dare to go to teaching way whit student like you... ..
yes we have
In my part atleastwell five point hint, It starts whit the word opposite to rigth and is usually a head of the state in the republicks
: Pfff to you too also, so gues that ends this, Have a nice day and dont stay late in front of computer. If you want to confront me or answer me, Do it by PM in some other forum we are both allowed to post...couse we're done here and if I would have to say anything more, i propaply get banned here by the contest of it...
Thread Closed for a few days
With a bit of luck it can get back to some form of civiity when it re-opens.
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