Fantasy RAN thread (Carriers only)

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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Indeed, as an interested outsider looking at the new equipment that is slated to be acquired and brought online in the next few years there has to be a commensurate increase or at least reorganization of personnel to operate it., or I would have thought. Pretty well covered the new acquisitions there but even thinking further the new assault breacher vehicles and the bridging on top of them. Getting to grips with these new capabilities and how to integrate, employ and maintain them effectively surely will require more people and even corresponding reserves to make this work.
How exactly are we intending to make use of these new capabilities. Yes new shiny equipment purchases are all sexy and get all the headlines when announcements are made or the first of them arrive or are rolled off a production line but without the people to effectively operate them won't they simply end up expensive toys kept in the toy box?
ADF has an approved and funded expansion plan, with 18,500 personnel to be added into the force structure. This is primarily designed to address the personnel requirements our new capabilities will require.

This expansion will result in the largest ADF force size, since the height of the Vietnam war.

 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
ADF has an approved and funded expansion plan, with 18,500 personnel to be added into the force structure. This is primarily designed to address the personnel requirements our new capabilities will require.

This expansion will result in the largest ADF force size, since the height of the Vietnam war.

18,500, a significant increase, is this number doable?
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
18,500, a significant increase, is this number doable?
The ADF in numbers at 60,000 (give or take 2-3000)is the same size as the late 1970s when Australia's pop was around 15-16 million. Today we are at 26 million, every position in the ADF today is open to both sexes unlike 1980 when only a handful of non combat related positions were open to females. so theoretically it should be easy but of course other factors come into it.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
With the time frame and population growth that number is more then manageable. 18,500 over 18 years is a very slow rate of growth and the amount of growth ties in with largely the rate of population growth so on a per capita basis we arent actually getting any more but rather just keeping within the current statistics.
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
There are some capabilites spoken of in relation to a carrier that would be useful even without ever getting the carrier.

The F35B with its ability to operate from small FOBs would be of great benefit in any "island hopping" campaign.
This would allow the RAAF to operate closely with regional allies who are introducing this aircraft.
The Harrier was not originally designed as a naval fighter but as land based strike aircraft capable of forward deployment.

A helo based AEW operating from the LHDs could provide additional ISR and targeting information to the ARGs escorts.
This would allow any escorting P8 to be called away to prosecute the more distant sub contacts.
Or freed up to be tasked for long range strike.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
With the time frame and population growth that number is more then manageable. 18,500 over 18 years is a very slow rate of growth and the amount of growth ties in with largely the rate of population growth so on a per capita basis we arent actually getting any more but rather just keeping within the current statistics.
Australia's population is driven by immigration and is projected to grow to around 30 - 32 million by 2040. Growing the size of the military by 30% when the population rises by around 20% should be manageable. Also the GDP is, or at least was, growing faster than the population rate. Some of Australia's really long term projects will have there manpower and budget requirements stretching out into the 2050s or even the 2060s so really making plans that far into the future is as much speculation as anything else. I mean will we even be using manned vehicles and vessels in 30 or 40 years time?
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
There are some capabilites spoken of in relation to a carrier that would be useful even without ever getting the carrier.

The F35B with its ability to operate from small FOBs would be of great benefit in any "island hopping" campaign.
This would allow the RAAF to operate closely with regional allies who are introducing this aircraft.
The Harrier was not originally designed as a naval fighter but as land based strike aircraft capable of forward deployment.

A helo based AEW operating from the LHDs could provide additional ISR and targeting information to the ARGs escorts.
This would allow any escorting P8 to be called away to prosecute the more distant sub contacts.
Or freed up to be tasked for long range strike.
Good point. An F-35A requires around 2400 meters or runway where as the F-35B only requires about 170 meters. Buying F-35Bs would potentially give Australia access to dozens of unsinkable, island sized, aircraft carriers scattered across the pacific and Indian oceans.

Really this is just what China is trying to do in the South China Sea and I am sure they would love to be able to do it in this region as well. The US Marine Corps is well practiced at building ad-hoc runways and temporary bases, a skill they deme necessary in this region. Even Singapore recognises that it can't rely on permanent runways which is its reasoning behind ordering the F-35B ahead of the A model. Maybe Australia needs to take the hint that permanent or even bare-bone bases will be among the first targets in a major war.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Oh good grief, take II.

People, there is a reason why the word "fantasy" is in the thread title, and that is because such discussion is inevitably fantasy as opposed to being grounded in reality, since people always seem to focus on the kit and not the capability.

I bring this up because much like the discussion advocating for an ACF for the RNZAF again, much seems to get made of what capabilities having a CV-something back in RAN service would provide, whilst giving little mention to what would actually be required in order to provide such capabilities. In short, what the impact on the RAN specifically and ADF more generally in terms of force structure.

With the RAN currently having three DDG's for area air defence, and eight ANZAC-class frigates for more general ASW/escort duties, those numbers should reliably permit the RAN to be able to muster a single task force comprising a DDG for air defence and between one and three frigates to cover general escort and ASW roles. The RAN might just be able to form a naval task force formation comparable to either a USN or RN CSG, if the RAN were to actually end up getting a CV. However, that would essentially take up the entirety of major warships that
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Good point. An F-35A requires around 2400 meters or runway where as the F-35B only requires about 170 meters. Buying F-35Bs would potentially give Australia access to dozens of unsinkable, island sized, aircraft carriers scattered across the pacific and Indian oceans.

Really this is just what China is trying to do in the South China Sea and I am sure they would love to be able to do it in this region as well. The US Marine Corps is well practiced at building ad-hoc runways and temporary bases, a skill they deme necessary in this region. Even Singapore recognises that it can't rely on permanent runways which is its reasoning behind ordering the F-35B ahead of the A model. Maybe Australia needs to take the hint that permanent or even bare-bone bases will be among the first targets in a major war.
@OPSSG Has covered the SAF operating the F-35B comprehensively in that thread and it makes a huge amount of sense for them as they can scatter their F-35Bs onto Freeways and range requirements are nothing like Australia's.
 

ddxx

Well-Known Member
@OPSSG Has covered the SAF operating the F-35B comprehensively in that thread and it makes a huge amount of sense for them as they can scatter their F-35Bs onto Freeways and range requirements are nothing like Australia's.
An F-35B has ~76.2% of the combat radius and ~83.4% of the payload capacity of an F-35A. To me at least, that's pretty impressive given the substantial flexibility the platform brings. In terms of internal fuel combat radius, it's apparently greater than a F/A-18F.

An F-35B carrying a couple of JASSM-ERs can strike targets well in excess of 1,500km from wherever they took off, whether that's from land or a carrier. Future long range missile developments, such as the HACM will continue to grow this figure.

Platform range can't be considered in isolation from all other factors - such as weapons fit, weapons range, and flexibility of operations. ASPI constantly falls into this trap in their advocacy for B-21s.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I'm still not sure what the boundaries are in this thread.

Can anyone envisage an LHD being used as a special forces strike carrier.
Small Army contingent of a couple of hundred only.
Loading dock for some fast boats and a couple of LCM 1e for carrying some light vehicles.
An operation lasting a couple of days if not counted in hours.
Aviation centric for ASW,Transport and Escort helicopters.

Probably within our region

Thoughts


Regards S
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
@OPSSG Has covered the SAF operating the F-35B comprehensively in that thread and it makes a huge amount of sense for them as they can scatter their F-35Bs onto Freeways and range requirements are nothing like Australia's.
1. From 2030s onwards, Singapore will close Paya Lebar Airbase, leaving 5 fighter squadrons, 6 MRTTs, 4 G550 AEWs, 5 Fokker 50 MPAs, 5 Fokker 50 transports, 10 C-130Hs, all squeezed into only 2 fixed wing bases.
(a) These 100 fighters will be stationed in only 2 bases with diverts as highways/roads stretches that are well known to the enemy. The RSAF become more capable in the delivery of munitions but it is also much more fragile, if attrition occurs in the 1st ten days of war.​
(b) To avoid total runway denial, the RSAF trains to operate from highways and has built even a small air strip in a remote island — to address one part of our threat matrix & the decision to downsize from 167 is a trade-off. The SAF accepted risk, to gain capability — including significantly improved EW, range in missions, SEAD & maritime strike capabilities.​
(c) From a planning perspective, the RSAF prefer to spend money to acquire a larger air force (the orbat was 167 fighters, & reduced to 100 now) but are forced to make a trade-off, in the interest of urban development and the need to acquire new capability, for threat relevance.​
(d)What most people don’t realise is that the South China Sea is already a no fly zone at war, unless coalition forces can delaminate layers of enemy defences.​

2. Australia can disperse its fighters in a manner we cannot; and we are within mortar range of an occasionally hostile neighbour — that caused the RSAF to mobilise all 5 fighter squadrons in 2018. Our good neighbour also intruded into our airspace on Sept-11, 2021 (as it’s helicopter over flew an island where we conduct BMT, to test our scramble timing).

3. Closure of Paya Lebar means 1/3 of our runways are denied, even without enemy action. The route of #SPAR19 carrying Speaker Pelosi’s delegation, from KL to Taipei, skirting the entire South China Sea, in an abundance of caution should tell you, how far the balance of power has been shifting in favour of the PLA(N), over the disputed waters of the South China Sea — Brunei, Indonesia & Malaysia at the bottom of the 9-dash line are no longer sovereign in their EEZ without external assistance and assurance of friendly navies with hard power.

4. To avoid the thread from going nuts, there are no plans for the Singapore Navy to build or buy a F-35B capable carrier. With a defence budget of SGD 16.36 billion (USD12 billion) for 2022, Singapore’s 434 billion dollar economy, can’t afford to build a SAF that operates a baby carrier, at this time.
(a) With a 1.7 trillion dollar economy, what the RAAF needs is a 4th squadron of F-35As, first before anyone goes onto hypotheticals for a RAN carrier — even if you find the money, buy more F-35As. I still don’t think that such a force construct (with F-35Bs) suits Australia unless your defence budget is in the USD 55 to 65 billion range — other than SSNs, the Australian public is not really ready to open its purse strings at the expense of other things to grow the ADF too much beyond its current staffing levels or platforms (be it vessels, boats or aircraft). IMHO, existing the RAAF fighter wing is way too small, for the geography it needs to operate & defend.​
(b) South Korea's defence budget for 2022 has been finalised at KRW54.61 trillion (USD46.32 billion). With a 1.8 trillion dollar economy, even the South Koreans after Moon are doing a re look on the F-35B, as they realise they have a limited budget — competing with Japan is less important than addressing the North Korean threat, at this time.​
(c) Unlike Australia, in Nov 2021, with a 4.9 trillion dollar economy, Japan approved a significant supplemental budget, known as the Defense-Strengthening Acceleration Package. This was done to bolster core defence spending for FY21 and FY22. All this occurred against the background of recent news polls suggesting 64% – almost 2/3s – of Japanese voters support strengthening the country’s defences . The modification of the two Izumo-class carriers to be able to operate the F-35B will improve the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force’s ability to operate at greater range.​

5. With regard to hostile forces in artificial islands in the South China Sea, increasingly, the SAF sees these urban littorals as:

(a) a chain of over 150 Natuna islands that our 6 Formidable-class frigates, 2 Archer-class & 2 Invincible-class submarines (soon to be commissioned) can reach or strike from;​
(b) a contested space that ASEAN cannot cope with. The SAF’s tri-service participation in the Indonesian hosted Ex Garuda Shield 2022, (outside of the ADMM Plus framework), along with American, Australian, and Japanese forces, illustrate this security cooperation dynamics — a frigate, a LPD & a company of army deployment force from Singapore joins this exercise; &​
(c) a place where the SAF’s 3rd Division or 21st division (rapid deployment division), in coalition with Australian, American and Japanese forces, can insert into via C-130Hs & CH-47Fs, to secure a remote air field for our F-35Bs to operate from, upon the request of the TNI.​

6. Singaporean CH-47Fs are fitted with a long nosecone for a navigation radar, enlarged fuel tanks on sponsons and is equipped with an EO/IR turret below its nosecone. These DSTA specified modifications will support the future deployment of the CH-47F from Singaporean ships. The large side sponsons enable Singapore’s CH-47Fs to be employed for “Fat Cow” operations; to refuel F-35Bs & H225Ms, using the Forward Area Refueling Equipment Kit.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Oh good grief, take II.

People, there is a reason why the word "fantasy" is in the thread title, and that is because such discussion is inevitably fantasy as opposed to being grounded in reality, since people always seem to focus on the kit and not the capability.

I bring this up because much like the discussion advocating for an ACF for the RNZAF again, much seems to get made of what capabilities having a CV-something back in RAN service would provide, whilst giving little mention to what would actually be required in order to provide such capabilities. In short, what the impact on the RAN specifically and ADF more generally in terms of force structure.

With the RAN currently having three DDG's for area air defence, and eight ANZAC-class frigates for more general ASW/escort duties, those numbers should reliably permit the RAN to be able to muster a single task force comprising a DDG for air defence and between one and three frigates to cover general escort and ASW roles. The RAN might just be able to form a naval task force formation comparable to either a USN or RN CSG, if the RAN were to actually end up getting a CV. However, that would essentially take up the entirety of major warships that
Ok, I agree with you to a point. However times are a changing for the worse and 12 months ago who would've thought that the RAN would be acquiring SSNs, so let us not forget that surprise. The Mods were banning people for short periods who kept harping on about RAN SSNs, along came AUKUS.

What would actually be required?
  • A third flat top specifically designed and purposed to operate the F-35B and attendant rotary wing aircraft.
  • F-35B aircraft. Some have suggested the 4th tranche of F-35.
  • Some form of AEW.
  • Some form of A2AR.
  • COD?
  • Crew.
    • Ships.
    • Air.
      • F-35B - RAAF
      • Rotary wing - RAN FAA
    • Aviation Support.
      • F-35 - RAAF
      • Rotary wing - RAN FAA
  • Logistics support.
  • CSG could consist of:
    • 1 CV.
    • 1 DDG.
    • 2 FFG.
    • 1 AOR.
  • RAN TF could consist of:
    • 1 CV.
    • 1/2 LHD.
    • 1/2 DDG.
    • 3/4 FFG.
    • 1/2 AOR.
I am a firm believer in distributed lethality and in also giving all warships good defensive capabilities. Hence I see no reason why ESSM Blk II should not be fitted to high value assets such as the LHDs, CV, AORs etc. It actually makes sense and any radar interference can be sorted. Just because the Americans don't do it doesn't mean that it isn't right. It's a glaring defensive weakness.

Yes such a deployment would involve a significant number of the serving main surface combat units of the RAN but it would have the capability to do so if required, plus it wouldn't necessarily be acting on its own so will have support of allies and coalition partners. The CV would be a good capability addition to the RAN & ADF a very welcome asset in the region.

Text deleted by a Moderator. Ngatimozart has broken his own Moderator's ruling. Banned from commenting on this thread for two days.
Ngatimozart.
 
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hauritz

Well-Known Member
Unless a carrier were to fortuitously fall into our lap I imagine 15 to 20 years just for the carrier. Then maybe another 5 to 10 years to become proficient at using it. To my mind Australia already has enough long term projects on its books. We actually need capability that can be introduced more quickly.

If the SSN project has shown us that anything is possible, it has also shown us that it is likely to be incredibly expensive and take a lifetime to achieve. Fact is that Australia obtaining B-21s would be simpler, quicker and maybe less expensive than one, perhaps several carriers, their air wings, escorts and support vessels.

By they way I am NOT advocating B-21s either. If anything I am more a fan of small relatively cheap unmanned equipment.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Assuming funding and an increased threat environment happens (not an unreasonable assumption), should a CATOBAR CV be an option? Longer range F-35Cs, Hawkeye, and maybe even MQ-25s become possible. Significant cost above a F-35B CV though.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Ok, I agree with you to a point. However times are a changing for the worse and 12 months ago who would've thought that the RAN would be acquiring SSNs, so let us not forget that surprise. The Mods were banning people for short periods who kept harping on about RAN SSNs, along came AUKUS.

What would actually be required?
  • A third flat top specifically designed and purposed to operate the F-35B and attendant rotary wing aircraft.
  • F-35B aircraft. Some have suggested the 4th tranche of F-35.
  • Some form of AEW.
  • Some form of A2AR.
  • COD?
  • Crew.
    • Ships.
    • Air.
      • F-35B - RAAF
      • Rotary wing - RAN FAA
    • Aviation Support.
      • F-35 - RAAF
      • Rotary wing - RAN FAA
  • Logistics support.
  • CSG could consist of:
    • 1 CV.
    • 1 DDG.
    • 2 FFG.
    • 1 AOR.
  • RAN TF could consist of:
    • 1 CV.
    • 1/2 LHD.
    • 1/2 DDG.
    • 3/4 FFG.
    • 1/2 AOR.
I am a firm believer in distributed lethality and in also giving all warships good defensive capabilities. Hence I see no reason why ESSM Blk II should not be fitted to high value assets such as the LHDs, CV, AORs etc. It actually makes sense and any radar interference can be sorted. Just because the Americans don't do it doesn't mean that it isn't right. It's a glaring defensive weakness.

Yes such a deployment would involve a significant number of the serving main surface combat units of the RAN but it would have the capability to do so if required, plus it wouldn't necessarily be acting on its own so will have support of allies and coalition partners. The CV would be a good capability addition to the RAN & ADF a very welcome asset in the region.

Text deleted by a Moderator. Ngatimozart has broken his own Moderator's ruling. Banned from commenting on this thread for two days.
Ngatimozart.
All the above sort of misses the direction of the issue I have with a RAN CV fantasy fleet. Yes, a CV could provide the RAN and ADF with additional capabilities, and such capabilities would be most welcome by allies, but there is not such thing as a "free lunch" in attempting such an acquisition.

Either billions in extra funding and resources, as well as increases in the authorized strength across the ADF would be required, or such an acquisition would be at the expense of current and/or planned future capabilities. Using the Canberra-class LHD design as a very rough base (because it can provide an IMO barely adequate STOVL capability) a single vessel would cost in excess of AUD$2.28 bil. based off estimates. The LHD designs cost ~AUD$1.5 bil. back in 2007, and the accumulated inflation since then has been nearly 50% and that is just for the base vessel, not any extra systems or modifications. Realistically some significant redesign work would almost certainly be needed, otherwise a max of 18 embarked aircraft would provide a hard capability limit which would negatively impact sortie generation rates and coverage. IMO even more likely is that Australia would need to go with a significantly larger design in order to permit a large enough embarked CAG to actually be worthwhile. There is a reason why the RN's Queen Elizabeth-class carriers are 65,000 tonnes, and why France's replacement for the Charles de Gaulle is expected to be around 75,000 tonnes. Going significantly smaller will leave an embarked CAG too small to do much more than provide a small CAP around a TF. For example, 18 embarked aircraft might permit a dozen F-35B's and six helicopters. Such a force structure would permit a two-fighter flight of F-35B's to either by aloft on a CAP or on hot pad status ready to launch at any given time. It would not be large enough generate strike packages to attack hostile shipping, aircraft, or ground/land-based targets, at least not without leaving the TF undefended vs. aerial threats apart from SAM's aboard escorting vessels. The six embarked helicopters might be able to be split into groups of three so that a SAR helicopter is ready to be sent out should an F-35B pilot end up becoming a parachutist and/or swimmer, as well as a potential AEW helicopter to provide an extended sensor footprint to the carrier and TF.

All of the above would be for a single vessel, which means such a capability would be available only part of the time, at best. This is part of the reason why the RAN has a pair of LHD's, so that it is more likely that there is at least a single LHD available should the ADF need to deploy assets somewhere. To get the RAN to have similar coverage of capabilities but with a carrier, then one would be talking about at least a pair of carriers would be needed as well as all the associated aircraft and crews for each vessel. By now, it should be apparent just how large and quickly the costs required for the capability are ballooning.

The above also does not expand the fleet of destroyers and frigates either, so that the RAN would still be largely limited to being able to deploy a single TF which could be centred around either a CV, an LHD, of contain both types. Attempting to have the RAN deploy a pair (or more) of TF's into threatened/hostile areas would require more escort forces than the RAN can reliably generate. Would one be comfortable with the idea of an LHD being a part of a TF transiting to support or reinforce a carrier-based TF deployment whilst being escorted by perhaps only a single ANZAC-class FFH? Or the flipside, a RAN/ADF TF with amphibs is deployed somewhere due to conflict, and a RAN carrier gets sent to reinforce the TF. That carrier would make a very tempting, and vulnerable, high value target if there were insufficient escorts during the transit.

Raising a carrier force is something that the RAN and ADF can do, and if done properly would add a host of capabilities and response options much like the planned transition from a conventional sub force to SSN's. However, such major changes to the RAN's fleet structure would require major planning as well as require committing significant resources and personnel to both implement and then sustain, and these commitments would be in addition to what has already been announced.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Assuming funding and an increased threat environment happens (not an unreasonable assumption), should a CATOBAR CV be an option? Longer range F-35Cs, Hawkeye, and maybe even MQ-25s become possible. Significant cost above a F-35B CV though.
Nothing suitable on the market for starters, only the US and France are currently operating CATOBAR CVs. So you would have to fork out a lot of funding for a design before you even start building. The UK did do some work on a QE CATOBAR.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
18,500, a significant increase, is this number doable?
ADF have consistently accepted around 8000 recruits annually over the last few years, but consistently get in excess of 80,000 applications every year. Our recruitment is limited by available positions, not available applicants. Retention has also been good over the last few years, despite the winding down of our major operational commitments.

If the purse strings were to be relaxed, this would be doable over the next couple of years largely, let alone before 2040…

There will of course be numerous specialist trades that take much longer to train and to ramp up those training pipelines, but significant expansion could happen quickly if the Government decided it were necessary and that is only bases on current applications, let alone any urgent ‘crash’ programs that would be implemented under actual wartime scenarios.

Now back to fantasy carrier fleet…

If we were to pursue that option, as I’ve long said, a dedicated ship would be required for RAN to have a credible capability. LHD’s might be okay in the short term to maintain qualifications etc, but our amphibious capability is spread too thin as it is. Diluting it further would see us be less than capable in any area. Certainly as a carrier they would have many deficiencies, yet attempting to use them as a carrier would mean they would also become deficient in their primary role.

Too poor a trade-off for my liking. Do it properly, or don’t bother and invest in other ways to protect the fleet…
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm still not sure what the boundaries are in this thread.
Purge your demons before we close this thread in the next few days. Speak or hold your peace. We don't need people being unfriendly to each other, or disrespectful or continued batshitness. Discuss fantasy with reasons and knowledge. Personally if it gets it out of peoples systems so we can get back to reasonable discussions and the crazy lies here then it lies here.

Unless a carrier were to fortuitously fall into our lap I imagine 15 to 20 years just for the carrier. Then maybe another 5 to 10 years to become proficient at using it. To my mind Australia already has enough long term projects on its books. We actually need capability that can be introduced more quickly.
Yes. Start a project, select a carrier, build a carrier or carrier fleet, train crew up, IOC, FOC, airwing etc. Although there could be some shortcuts, buy someone elses carrier, use aircraft we already have etc. But do we see a carrier being as needed in 20 years more than we see it being needed in 10 years? What is the opportunity cost in doing so.

I will spitball crazy.

STOBAR from India
Basing a QE in Australia
Purchase JC1 from Spain or from Turkey for above market price.
Lets eliminate all the crazy and possible and impossible options.

We will need more escorts. where do we get those?
Where do we base everything.
Where do we get aircraft? F-35's at the back of the que?
 

AndyinOz

Member
ADF has an approved and funded expansion plan, with 18,500 personnel to be added into the force structure. This is primarily designed to address the personnel requirements our new capabilities will require.

This expansion will result in the largest ADF force size, since the height of the Vietnam war.

Thank you kindly for the resource I had seen mention of it before as I am imagining everyone has. A question I suppose I was pondering that will be no doubt answered in the public domain in due course would be how such a sizeable increase in the numbers be assigned to each of the services and what would be needed in terms of personnel, structures, training, and time to bring the new capabilities to fruition . A sit back and wait for the answer approach is the way to go I imagine. Most of my own background personally applies to the IT field which seems to be spoken of a bit as well in news sources and alike that will be of some interest to myself.
 
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