F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped

[Occum]

...Chug a lug

AS I'm sure you well know, JSF will have, AMRAAM, AIM-9X, JDAM, JSOW, JASSM, SDB and LGB's integrated right from the beginning of it's operational service.

If, like the Brits, you are planning on an IOC sometime in or after 2019, then this could possibly turn out to be true. How many of these stores are programmed to be cleared under SDD?

Obviously the F-35 have yet to conduct any weapons test. Tell me if you can, how many missiles or bombs had F-22 or F-15E fired when they'd flown TEN times in total?

IIRC, the YF-22 and YF-23 fired missiles, dropped bombs and (not 100% sure) but I think fired the gun during DemEval. It was a requirement in the DemEval spec. This was not the case for the JAST/JSF DemEval-Fly Off, which is where my gunnie friends concerns started to be raised.

Clearing weapons, particularly low mass stores, is going to be a challenge from the JSF weapons bays as will the clearances off the wing, especially for the high pitch inertia stores. This was one of the reasons for all the hoopla surrounding the external fuel tanks and why Fuel Tank Configuration C-13 (426 gal coke bottle on its side) was proposed. Anyone know what has happened to the external fuel tank element of the program? Is it still part of the SDD Phase or has it been moved to the right with the other stores?

If it has, that is pretty risky. In the words of one of this (and other) forums great oracles, "Is anyone seeing a theme/trend here?"


:smooth

 

[Waylander]

Why should they force them to buy it? What would be the benefit for Japan?

They need to replace their Phantoms quick. The JSF is probably much too late for this. By ordering the EF or maybe the Rafale they get good A2A fighters, which is their premier objective, with an ongoing multi-role development.
They would get them quick as the EF participating european countries are eager to exchange some of their slots with future ones to stretch the costs like they did with Austria and Saudi Arabia. And a home produtction in Japan is a real possibility in my eyes.
France is so eager to sell the Rafale they would probably offer Japan everything they can dream of.

 

[Occum]

No quite.....

........... As one might guess, r... pipes etc. to think about and pay for. ;)

 

[swerve]

Why should they force them to buy it? What would be the benefit for Japan?

They need to replace their Phantoms quick. The JSF is probably much too late for this. By ordering the EF or maybe the Rafale they get good A2A fighters, which is their premier objective, with an ongoing multi-role development.
They would get them quick as the EF participating european countries are eager to exchange some of their slots with future ones to stretch the costs like they did with Austria and Saudi Arabia. And a home produtction in Japan is a real possibility in my eyes.
France is so eager to sell the Rafale they would probably offer Japan everything they can dream of.

Agreed about everything except the Rafale. It's not on offer, as the Japanese didn't respond to French requests for assurances it was a serious contest (i.e. unlike the Korean one). Once bitten, twice shy.

BTW, I'd say F-35 isn't "probably" much too late. It's definitely much too late.

 

[Waylander]

Oh, ok. Rafale out again.
Man the export guys trying to sell the Rafale are for sure seriously "annoyed" since years.

 

[Rich]

Re the JSF and Australia,
It's all a depressing a re-run of history, and also bad defence economics. (The latter driven by people who got to the top by being educated in class-rooms after coming from the right schools, instead of grunting-it out in the heat in a smelly and unpleasant location with real soldiers, charged with a real mission.)
This is F-111 all over gain .. grandioseley expensive, definitely late to the flight line in Ozz (so, whoops, buy some Super Hornets for the gap, never mind the cost), I will also bet under-capable when delivered, and will require on-going and very expensive up-dates once received. Thereby reducing the flight-line available numbers while the successive up-grades (err, sorry, 'block' re-dating as this is called now), and combined with the fantastic unit cost, and up-grade costs on-going, making each machine so fantastically expensive per item that they will never be risked for actual combat work unless surrounded by an even more expensive cast.
Complete military and financial nonsense.
Just like the F-111, supposed to be all things .. but won't be.
Too small to be a bomber or missile launcher of any serious capability in a big stoush, not able to sustain a real long-distance multi-adversary stoush as a fighter on it's own . . and it's costs will compromise basic equipment and pay for the guys on the ground for years. Military and financial nonesense.
Frankly, 100 Sukhois at half the cost would have made far more sense militarily and financially, but you don't get lunch at the White House that way.
A trophy project, and a waste of resources.

:shudder

Wow! Its always good to make a splash on your first posts isn't it. We have been thru all your silly points so many times there really is no "point" in going over it all again. But if you are going to say these ridiculous things then you really out to back them up with factual material, or, post your own expertise and job title.

That's the problem with these old threads that live on like vampires. They attract first posters like this. BTW, you need to buy a spellchecker.

 

[harryriedl]

Oh, ok. Rafale out again.
Man the export guys trying to sell the Rafale are for sure seriously "annoyed" since years.

Rafale doesn't seem to be having much luck at all. at least India should give it a good chance to show whether it competitive. [i refuse to believe that Dassult have created a turkey]

 

[Tasman]

Re the JSF and Australia,
This is F-111 all over gain .. grandioseley expensive, definitely late to the flight line in Ozz (so, whoops, buy some Super Hornets for the gap, never mind the cost), I will also bet under-capable when delivered, and will require on-going and very expensive up-dates once received. Thereby reducing the flight-line available numbers while the successive up-grades (err, sorry, 'block' re-dating as this is called now), and combined with the fantastic unit cost, and up-grade costs on-going, making each machine so fantastically expensive per item that they will never be risked for actual combat work unless surrounded by an even more expensive cast.
Complete military and financial nonsense.
Just like the F-111, supposed to be all things .. but won't be.
Too small to be a bomber or missile launcher of any serious capability in a big stoush, not able to sustain a real long-distance multi-adversary stoush as a fighter on it's own . . and it's costs will compromise basic equipment and pay for the guys on the ground for years. Military and financial nonesense.

:shudder

Well philk, without repeating the pros and cons of the JSF that we have been debating throughout this and other threads, I just hope that it is half as successful in RAAF service as the F-111 has been. The F-111 has, IMHO, provided a fantastic deterrent force for Australia since it joined the RAAF in the early 1970s.

Incidentally, the F-111 was never intended to be a fighter in RAAF service. It was acquired to re-equip the RAAF's bomber squadrons and also to provide a long range reconnaissance capability.

If the JSF gives anywhere near the service to the RAAF that has been provided by the F-111, I for one will be very happy indeed.

The "F-111 all over again..." Yes please!

Cheers

 

[tphuang]

it doesn't matter whether its fair or not. national security and national interest are not based on notions of fairness.

recent examples: Toshiba losing low cavitation propellor technology for submarines, and the recent example of a senior naval officer who had Aegis specs on his personal computer. His computer also had a bit torrent client and his partner was chinese.

In my book, thats 3 strikes and you're out. Basic security breaches are being witnessed and they want the F-22?

Outside of that, I'm not convinced that the US is going to change their stance re any foreign sales of F-22 - certainly not in the 5-10 year window.

If I'm wrong, then so be it.

And I think that's just the times that they are caught having security lapses. I figure there are probably a few times that they lost highly confidential data without even knwoing.

 

[rjmaz1]

Why should they force them to buy it? What would be the benefit for Japan?

No need to force. The Rafale and Eurofighter are no where near as advanced as the JSF. If they cant get the F-22 why would they buy the Eurofighter or Rafale unless they needed aircraft urgently, which both Japan and Israel dont.

If the US denies F-22 sales to both countries it almost gurantee's that they will buy F-35's in 10 years time. If the US denies the F-22 soon, it may even give both countries enough time to get some contracts for parts of the F-35, that would be beneficial for both Japan and Israel.

As both countries may buy over 200 F-35's each it would be a huge boost to the JSF program and would definitely make it a success. So it would dramatically increase the air power of both Israel and Japan sure not as much as the F-22 but it is still a win for them. The USAF can now reduce F-35 orders and buy more F-22's this is a win for the USAF.

What benifits would the USA get from selling the F-22? extended production would be the only benifit, but if they sold F-35's the production of the F-22 would most likely stay open for longer.

 

[gf0012-aust]

it may even give both countries enough time to get some contracts for parts of the F-35, that would be beneficial for both Japan and Israel.

too late. the work share was locked in approx 2 years ago. its not just based on country requirements. contracts extend to international work as well as local - hence the opportunity for broad based work is almost nil.

 

[swerve]

No need to force. The Rafale and Eurofighter are no where near as advanced as the JSF. If they cant get the F-22 why would they buy the Eurofighter or Rafale unless they needed aircraft urgently, which both Japan and Israel dont.....

Israel doesn't, but Japan does. With the decision to reduce F-2 procurement, Japan is faced with the prospect of having to retire its old F-4s with no replacement, unless it buys new fighters. It is not possible for the F-35 to enter service until a few years after the last F-4 has to retire, leaving Japan to rely entirely for years on a fairly modest & shrinking force of F-15s & F-2s. The Japanese Defence Ministry considers that an unacceptable weakening of Japans defences.

Israel is in a different position. It has a publicly stated intent to buy F-35 when the high-priced early production is complete, but would also like some high-end fighters to ensure its superiority over enemies & potential enemies, e.g. Saudi Typhoons. It doesn't have an urgent requirement, just a wish to get in before F-22 production ends & it's too late.

 

[Geddy]

It's hardly likely that any country can be "forced" to by the F-35. As for the Rafale, didn't it win the South Korean valuation to be discarded in favour of the F-15 for political reasons? I'm sure i've seen this written in industry publications a number of times. Given that, the Rafale has not been offered to Korean again for the latest order.

 

[Rich]

In my opinion I'd say Israel is the least dependable when its comes to technology transfers. Unfortunately they have a very strong Lobbying group in Washington which exerts undue influence. But Israel is only concerned about Israel, its always been that way.

Mind you that doesn't mean I dont support Israel, because I do. I just think they are the last ones we should sell F-22s to. The only ones we should ever even consider should be the Brits and the Aussies.

 

[rjmaz1]

It is not possible for the F-35 to enter service until a few years after the last F-4 has to retire, leaving Japan to rely entirely for years on a fairly modest & shrinking force of F-15s & F-2s. The Japanese Defence Ministry considers that an unacceptable weakening of Japans defences..

Even when the F-4's are retired Japan would still be left with excellent capability. I dont believe they are in the same position as Australia which definitely needs some new aircraft. Japan can wait for the F-35. If they go Rafale, Eurofighter or F-35 i doubt any of them will be getting built in Japan. Not going with the F-35 would only give a short term increase in capability.

Israel is in a different position. It has a publicly stated intent to buy F-35 when the high-priced early production is complete, but would also like some high-end fighters to ensure its superiority over enemies & potential enemies, e.g. Saudi Typhoons.

Israel would just be getting greedy asking for the F-22. The F-35 would be more than good enough to beat the Saudi Typhoon's not to mention the big advantage Israel would have netcentric wise.

Again how will the USA benifit from selling the F-22?

Not selling the F-22 oversea's gives many advantages.
1) The USAF always has the edge having the F-22.
2) More countries will order the F-35 as it is clearly second best.
3) USAF can now reduce F-35 orders and buy additional F-22's.

 

[BKNO]

Following the years of active service of the F-111 in the Australian AF is going to be a though act for ANY type.

As a striker it had a lot of qualities, as an aircraft it had a lot of defisciencies but with time mopst were corrected.

The only advantage of more modern types is that they are multi-roles, for the rest in terms of playloads, low-level/high-speed penetration and ranges they still dont bring much to compare favourably to the F-111s.

 

[Waylander]

Loosing 91 fighters and 27 recces when the Phantoms are retired without replacement is not what I would call "no problem".

This is nearly 1/3 of their fighter force.

 

[swerve]

Even when the F-4's are retired Japan would still be left with excellent capability. I dont believe they are in the same position as Australia which definitely needs some new aircraft. Japan can wait for the F-35. If they go Rafale, Eurofighter or F-35 i doubt any of them will be getting built in Japan. Not going with the F-35 would only give a short term increase in capability.
....

As has been said, the F-4s are currently a third of the force. Add in 10 years attrition of the rest, & we're talking about something like a 50% drop in numbers by the time the first F-35 could arrive. Would you consider that acceptable for Australia?

As has been said, repeatedly, Rafale is out of the picture, so I don't know why you keep mentioning it.

Eurofighter is offering anyone with the industrial capacity who places a big enough order a deal not much less than full consortium membership. Licence production, if wanted, with the option of sharing in future development. Japan definitely qualifies on industrial capacity, & the order should be big enough. If Japan wants Eurofighter, with licence production & Japanese bits on it, & is willing to pay, that's exactly what Japan will get.

 

[Waylander]

And the Japanese just love to have their own production lines for foreign fighters which is defenitely a huge plus in the race for the contract.

 

[philk]

JSF australia

The mere fact Australia has now committed to $3 billion worth of Super Hornet orders, to cover for the JSF being late, amplifies my point.
As to maintenance costs, and so-called savings, when even a senior JSF partner like the UK had to strike a deal (still undisclosed re actual terms) to get the maintenance codes for it's very expensive investment in JSF, you gotta wonder how many Ozzie dollars will provide how many fully capable and fully maintainable fighting unit numbers from day one?
I suggest the answer will be very poor economic value per airplane.
The uncomfortable question the people writing the cheques don't want to front, is exactly what is the perceived threat?
If it's Indonesia, then we are talking 100 JSF who can take the flight line at short notice (not 100 in total, of whom 60 are in the shed)), probably 30 tankers, and adeqaute AWACS and interceptor cover. . not going to happen is it?
Menzies bought the F-111 because he wanted to be able to bomb Jakarta . . the arithmetic and practical military realities are different now.
The money wasted on an under-capable JSF (it is neither a real interceptor nor a bomber of any true deterrent capability even in flights of 10 or so . . which is all the RAAF will be able to field at any given time), the question mark over whether it will be fully maintainable in Australia unless the codes are handed over raises another barrier.
I stand by what I said before . . Aussie JSF is an expensive, late, and under-capable trophy project, which is no substitute for much greater numbers of more capable, and tanker supported, aircraft sooner.