F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped

[hot222]

From my point of view:

Raptors top advantage is that is a very stealthy aircraft. Thing that seems that was not a least top priority of Sukhoi design. Typhoon is somewhere in the middle. That meens Su-35/37 has a big RCS (Radar Cross Section) - can be aquired from many miles away in opposition with Raptor.

Let's make a scenario.

1 F-22 Raptor is approaching engagement area. Also from the opposite site 1 Su-35/37 approaching too. If Raptor's role is Combat Air Patrol, it will guide it to the approaching target from AWACS. At this time, Su-35/37 it's visible to "friendy" Early Warning systems and of course Raptor is not (from "enemy" EW). So Raptor's pilot take the order to intercept "enemy". At this time (still BVR) he has to use his radar to get queing to guide AMRAAMs to "enemy". At this point without Su-35/37 can aquire Raptor, it will take alert info for a threat, propably type, bearing, leathality and maybe and distance. Su-35/37 pilot may employ countermeasures and break lock-on. Also maybe que his radar to threat, so as soon as possible, aquire the threat. Moreover, at the point that Raptor will open bays to launch missiles, it will loss its stealthy advantage. Of course Raptor has the advantage of firing first BVR against "enemy". If that will not be success, maybe then they engage in an dogfight, which Su-35/37 area of supperiority.

In BVR engagement the need of Radar use, make stealthy acfts "less" in advantage than convetional designs. But still the we be in advantage.

I believe that stealth acfts' area of the greatest advantage is attack role, where they will use passive sensor (IR image, sat navigation) to deploy accurate and undetected their payload.

Few things that we must have in mind:
1. Russian aircrafts are also advanced in missiles, sensors, ECMs.
2. Russian aircrafts lack of stealthy characteristics.
3. From what I know, IRIS-T is better than AIM-9X, and Meteor better than AMRAAM. Also Russian missile are quite advanced, but does anyone knows if their better or worst from Europe's of US missiles? (As official as possible )

 

[Bone-B]

1 F-22 Raptor is approaching engagement area. Also from the opposite site 1 Su-35/37 approaching too. If Raptor's role is Combat Air Patrol, it will guide it to the approaching target from AWACS. At this time, Su-35/37 it's visible to "friendy" Early Warning systems and of course Raptor is not (from "enemy" EW). So Raptor's pilot take the order to intercept "enemy". At this time (still BVR) he has to use his radar to get queing to guide AMRAAMs to "enemy". At this point without Su-35/37 can aquire Raptor, it will take alert info for a threat, propably type, bearing, leathality and maybe and distance. Su-35/37 pilot may employ countermeasures and break lock-on. Also maybe que his radar to threat, so as soon as possible, aquire the threat. Moreover, at the point that Raptor will open bays to launch missiles, it will loss its stealthy advantage. Of course Raptor has the advantage of firing first BVR against "enemy". If that will not be success, maybe then they engage in an dogfight, which Su-35/37 area of supperiority.

In BVR engagement the need of Radar use, make stealthy acfts "less" in advantage than convetional designs. But still the we be in advantage.

The Raptor's AESA radar is very versatile. The APG-77 does have an LPI (Low Probability of Intercept) mode that has been almost impossible for the leagacy fighters to detect. Most modern RWR will not be able to detect the F-22 when it operates in this mode. They will probably only operate at full power when sweeping a large area that they have already achieved dominance over.

The Raptor's missle bay doors are only open for about two seconds. Once closed the plane goes back to full stealth and the radar lock is broken. So it might appear as a blip on the radar screen and alert someone to their general direction at the time of missile launch but when traveling at Mach 1.7 it has the liberty of changing direction and moving out that area.

 

[Cootamundra]

Just to add some more conjecture to an already overloaded thread try this on for size. Source: Strategy Page, Harold C Hutchinson....

Seems old Harold doesn't agree with some of you, not that that means anything at all! Like i said before, 'each to their own' (opinions that is) ;-)

F-35 Versus European Competition

July 14, 2006: The F-35 (recently named the Lightning II) is due to enter service soon. While the F-22 is widely seen as the ultimate air-to-air machine, the F-35 is described as a multi-role aircraft. How does the F-35 compare in the air-to-air mission against likely competitors like the French Rafale, the Swedish Gripen, and the multi-national Eurofighter?

The Rafale, Gripen, and Eurofighter are all in service or expected to enter service in 2006. All of them boast some of the best electronics suites ever to appear in combat aircraft. All have top speeds approaching 2,000 kilometers an hour. All three aircraft carry excellent beyond-visual-range missiles (like the Mica, AMRAAM, and Meteor). All are highly maneuverable. But will they be better than the F-35 in a fight?

The answer, surprisingly, is probably not. The F-35 has one big advantage over these three fighters from Europe. Its radar signature is very small – as is the case with the F-117 and F-22. Given that its speed is comparable to the European jets, and its AESA radar is at least as good as the European systems, this "invisibility" is a decisive advantage. The best weapons in the world are useless if they cannot see their targets.

The F-35 will be able to see the Rafale, Gripen, and Eurofighter long before it can be seen itself. The first rule of air combat may be "speed is life", but the second rule is "lose the sight, lose the fight". In the 21st century, sight includes radar. It is very likely that the only warning the F-35 may give of its presence will be when its radar has locked on to one of the European fighters. By that point, the F-35 is already close to launching its AMRAAMs.

This is probably the major reason for the United States Air Force's future dominance of the air. Even its second-best fighter will probably be able to best the front-line designs of other western nations in a "paper" fight based on specifications and capabilities. When the level of training American pilots get is added to the mix, the F-35's advantage becomes staggering. One other factor to consider is that the United States Air Force plans to have 1,763 F-35s on inventory (the Marine Corps and Navy variants would add another 780 F-35s to the mix). If the Rafale is built to a planned force level of 292, and the Saudi order for the Eurofighter goes through, the combined Gripen, Rafale, and Eurofighter production runs will total 1,262, meaning there will be two F-35s for every one of the advanced European fighters. – Harold C. Hutchison ([email protected])

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20060714.aspx

 

[WaterBoy]

Discounting the advantages of stealth, F-22 has significant kinematics advantages over other aircraft. (My apologies to Magoo & others, who have already alluded to some of these advantages.)

IMHO in a 1v1 scenario, the F-22 will be flying higher & faster than the bad guy, so it has the advantages of taking downhill first shots. Its ‘patrol’ speed is twice as fast as the other fighters, so it can tactically position itself for an favourable first shot. If it finds itself approaching an unfavourable position, it can evade faster than the bad guy. ‘Supercruising’ the F-22 will be faster than most other fighters carrying external ordinance, particularly if it resorts to reheat. This ability to engage, disengage & re-engage without resorting to reheat will give the F-22 significant greater combat endurance than other fighters. In simple terms it can run them out of fuel & catch them when they head for home.

Lastly, should the F-22 find itself in a knife fight it is undoubtable the best energy fighter around. Its speed at the merge alone would give it a significant energy advantage, & iirc USAF reports have described the F-22 as being able to outfight the F-15 on dry thrust alone. Aerodynamically it is ‘cleaner’ than its opponent, so it will accelerate quicker, recover energy faster & with a clean wing, be able to generate lift more efficiently than its ‘pyloned’ opponent. It has a lower wing loading & higher thrust to weight ratio than all other aircraft except possibly the Typhoon, so I doubt it would lose the angles fight. Besides, if it does start losing it can disengage at will.

Again, IMHO, the advantage the F-22 has over the Typhoon is it carries more fuel. This gives it the dual advantage of greater energy potential & combat persistence. A very simplified example of this fuel disadvantage is the WWII Me-163 Komet, which had startling performance, but only for 7 minutes. As a result, this aerodynamically superior aircraft turned out to be the worst fighter in WWII. The leading German ace of WWII bailed out of his aircraft when he ran out of fuel in combat.

Lastly I think people are unappreciative of how the USAF will tactically employ this aircraft. As Rich pointed out, it won’t be a fair 1v1 fight; tactics will be developed to allow the F-22’s significant advantages to be further exploited. The Israeli airforce, equipped with some of the most manoeuvrable teen series fighters was famous for only employing ‘slashing’ attacks. If a turn of more than 70 degrees was required for a kill they disengaged & allow the next fighter section to be vectored in for the kill.

Lastly, as the Red Baron said, "The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the man who sit in it."

Regards WaterBoy

 

[hot222]

Propably the "F-22 Fan Club" didn't understand that I have mantioned that in all cases F-22 has the advantage. I want to show that is not that great.

Today, EW (Electronic Warfare) is a situation that today's advantage, tommorow maybe you are behind (today or tommorow means in a few years). Already "open architecture" ECMs are on market today. ECMs that can classify, send back to base in real time new threats, etc. Low Propability of Interception means low not none. But as I said ECMs are not the same as few years ago.

An integrated aircaft has a main computer can collect and analyze all information from all sensors, passive and active. If F-22 needs 2 secs to lunch an AMRAAM, from close position to close position (open-fire-close the bays), the RCS maybe be quite big to inform adversary for what is this, ie. he may choose to avoid contact. This contact maybe transfered through datalink... See, things can by more compicated. Also AMRAAM's radar maybe jammed by the opponet.

Typhoon is also a supercruise fighter, able to achive M1.5 with clean configuration (4BVR and 2Short-range missiles), or M1.3 with full air-to-air configuration (including tanks).

At the end, and once again: F-22 is the "World's Dominance Fighter". No question. I agree with that. Also my experience says that what a company or an article says that a system can do, is a kind of advertisement. It maybe can do it, but not always.

 

[hybrid]

Propably the "F-22 Fan Club" didn't understand that I have mantioned that in all cases F-22 has the advantage. I want to show that is not that great.

Today, EW (Electronic Warfare) is a situation that today's advantage, tommorow maybe you are behind (today or tommorow means in a few years). Already "open architecture" ECMs are on market today. ECMs that can classify, send back to base in real time new threats, etc. Low Propability of Interception means low not none. But as I said ECMs are not the same as few years ago.

An integrated aircaft has a main computer can collect and analyze all information from all sensors, passive and active. If F-22 needs 2 secs to lunch an AMRAAM, from close position to close position (open-fire-close the bays), the RCS maybe be quite big to inform adversary for what is this, ie. he may choose to avoid contact. This contact maybe transfered through datalink... See, things can by more compicated. Also AMRAAM's radar maybe jammed by the opponet.

Typhoon is also a supercruise fighter, able to achive M1.5 with clean configuration (4BVR and 2Short-range missiles), or M1.3 with full air-to-air configuration (including tanks).

At the end, and once again: F-22 is the "World's Dominance Fighter". No question. I agree with that. Also my experience says that what a company or an article says that a system can do, is a kind of advertisement. It maybe can do it, but not always.

Normally I just lurk here, but I just gotta ask, realistically if the missile has already fired and your system has less than 2 seconds to locate said increase blip of RCS, ID said blip, and vector said blip all before the AMRAAM or whatever other missile is on its way and your own threat warning systems light up.....just how exactly do you AVOID engagement?

 

[killbill2]

Propably the "F-22 Fan Club" didn't understand that I have mantioned that in all cases F-22 has the advantage. I want to show that is not that great.

Today, EW (Electronic Warfare) is a situation that today's advantage, tommorow maybe you are behind (today or tommorow means in a few years). Already "open architecture" ECMs are on market today. ECMs that can classify, send back to base in real time new threats, etc. Low Propability of Interception means low not none. But as I said ECMs are not the same as few years ago.

An integrated aircaft has a main computer can collect and analyze all information from all sensors, passive and active. If F-22 needs 2 secs to lunch an AMRAAM, from close position to close position (open-fire-close the bays), the RCS maybe be quite big to inform adversary for what is this, ie. he may choose to avoid contact. This contact maybe transfered through datalink... See, things can by more compicated. Also AMRAAM's radar maybe jammed by the opponet.

Typhoon is also a supercruise fighter, able to achive M1.5 with clean configuration (4BVR and 2Short-range missiles), or M1.3 with full air-to-air configuration (including tanks).

At the end, and once again: F-22 is the "World's Dominance Fighter". No question. I agree with that. Also my experience says that what a company or an article says that a system can do, is a kind of advertisement. It maybe can do it, but not always.

Cough cough AMRAAM ahs home on jam cough cough.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Deleted

 

[hot222]

Normally I just lurk here, but I just gotta ask, realistically if the missile has already fired and your system has less than 2 seconds to locate said increase blip of RCS, ID said blip, and vector said blip all before the AMRAAM or whatever other missile is on its way and your own threat warning systems light up.....just how exactly do you AVOID engagement?

F-22 will use the radar to lock-on target. That will inform the enemy acft for the threat. From that moment, enemy will propably (manually or automatically) jam the threat (ECMs). Well, it quite hard to explain here, how all these things work...

 

[hot222]

Cough cough AMRAAM ahs home on jam cough cough.

Cause my poor english, can you explain me what you mean?

 

[Viktor]

I have read somewhere (an article by a British "think tank") and unfortunately I can't give you the url or which company put it out but the meat of the story goes:

By thier estimation, and judging by what the Aircraft (granting the pilots are of equal skills) can do, it will take:

.o6 Sukhoi Su-37s to defeat an F-15
4 Sukhoi Su-37s to defeat a Typhoon
10 Sukhoi Su-37s to defeat an F-22

My question:
If the Typhoon and the Raptor THAT GOOD?

P.S. if someone happens to run across this article on the net, can you post the url please?

This has no sence at all. Biased article probably computer simulation. LOL

 

[radiosilence]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6/07/25/AR2006072501437.html?nav=rss_business

Lockheed has also been pushing for Congress to lift a ban on foreign sales of its top-of-the-line F-22 Raptor

What are chances of the Raptor being sold to "top tier" nato allies and Japan?

 

[colay]

Cause my poor english, can you explain me what you mean?

AMRAAM will follow the jamming back to its source.

 

[B.Smitty]

F-22 will use the radar to lock-on target. That will inform the enemy acft for the threat. From that moment, enemy will propably (manually or automatically) jam the threat (ECMs). Well, it quite hard to explain here, how all these things work...

Not necessarily. APG-77 on the Raptor has what's called a Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) mode, that makes it hard for current generation Radar Warning Receivers to pick it up. IIRC, rumor has it that it uses some combination of spread spectrum techniques.

Also, it's possible down the road that pairs of Raptors could use cooperative engagement tactics where one stands off and locks on the target, while the other stays silent, closes, and takes the shot using datalinked information from the first, or actually handing off missile control to the first.

 

[B.Smitty]

GUYS HOLD UP
So if an F-22 can detect another F-22 with its own radar at say 20miles then we can roughly work out how far the AEGIS system could detect an F-22. Using a sound calculator with the AEGIS producing 1000 times more intensity it could detect the F-22 at 600 miles assuming no loss.. surely that cant be right

According to some reports, F-22As have performed exercises against F-15Cs backed by AWACS (2-4 Raptors vs 4-8+ F-15Cs + E-3s) and have won handly every time.

So I'm guessing AWACS either didn't see the Raptors until it was too late, or couldn't provide the F-15s with meaningful intercept information.

 

[B.Smitty]

This has no sence at all. Biased article probably computer simulation. LOL

It was a computer simulation with unknown parameters, so YMMV.

And the result was expressed in Loss Exchange Rate between various aircraft and the Flanker. It wasn't that it took "10 Flankers to kill a Raptor", it was 10 Flankers were shot down for every Raptor lost.

 

[Viktor]

It was a computer simulation with unknown parameters, so YMMV.

And the result was expressed in Loss Exchange Rate between various aircraft and the Flanker. It wasn't that it took "10 Flankers to kill a Raptor", it was 10 Flankers were shot down for every Raptor lost.

F-22 is mutch batter fighter than a Su-37 but to use computer simulations makes no sence - you can not enter all factors in the equation that may have imact on the combat + it is 4th generation plane against 5th.
But look- it states that you need 4 Su-37 to defet 1 Typhoon - this is sensless - I dont know - I would rather say one Su-37 for 1.5 Typhoon.

 

[B.Smitty]

F-22 is mutch batter fighter than a Su-37 but to use computer simulations makes no sence - you can not enter all factors in the equation that may have imact on the combat + it is 4th generation plane against 5th.
But look- it states that you need 4 Su-37 to defet 1 Typhoon - this is sensless - I dont know - I would rather say one Su-37 for 1.5 Typhoon.

Computer simulations can account for far more factors than you or I can.

The problem with them, and this one in particular, is we don't know the parameters under which the simulation was run.

What kind of situation or situations were modelled? What supporting assets were available to each side? What munitions were available (and what kinematic and sensor parameters did they use)? Was this based on estimates of the Flanker's abilities or actual intel? What were the ROEs?

Without knowing more about these things one can't draw meaningful conclusions.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Deleted.

 

[weasel1962]

Deleted