F-35B/C - Naval Air Discussions (USN & USMC)

RobWilliams

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Good news from Lockheed Martin, they claim to have fixed the tailhook design on the F35C.

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2013/04/10/lockheed-promises-tailhook-fix-to-navys-f-35c/

Lockheed Martin has come up with a new design for the tailhook on the F35 Joint Strike Fighters that should allow the Navy variant, the F-35C, to land on carriers and speed the long-delayed process of getting the aircraft out to the fleet, Lockheed and Navy officials said Wednesday.

Navy officials also said that they’ll have to do refits of the big-deck L-class of helicopter assault ships to accommodate the extreme heat and noise generated by the Marine Corps’ vertical-landing version of the Joint Strike Fighter, the F-35B.

The tailhook and ship overhauls were disclosed at a generally upbeat forum involving Navy, Marine and industry representatives on the status of the F35 program, the most expensive weapons program ever undertaken by the Defense Department.

“There’s a little bit of pressure coming down on our heads” on the F35s, said Vice Adm. David Dunaway, head of the Naval Air Systems Command. “We’re now in the meat of this program where we’re either going to succeed or fail. The Joint Strike Fighter has to fit in — it has to fit into the carrier air wing, and it has to fit into the MAGTF (Marine Air Ground Task Force),” Dunaway said.

“I can promise you that problems will occur” in the process of acquiring 260 F-35C Navy versions of the JSF, and 353 F-35B Marine versions, Dunaway said.

One of the problems was the initial design of the tailhook, which was a challenge for Lockheed Martin in that it had to be concealed within the airplane to enhance its stealth capability.

In testing, the tailhooks were failing to catch the arresting wires that are stretched across a carrier’s flight deck to bring the aircraft to a halt.

“Our original design was not performing as expected,” said Lorraine Martin, Lockheed Martin’s executive vice president for the F35 Lightning II program. Martin said the “toe” of the tailhook, the part that grabs the wire, had been re-designed along with the “hold down damper” gear that forces the tailhook down on the deck.

“It’s now in line with what the legacy aircraft uses,” Martin said of the new F-35 tailhook. She said the new assembly will be tested this summer at the Navy’s Lakehurst, N.J., facility and carrier tests were expected later this year.

Dunaway said he believed Lockheed Martin had found the right tailhook fix before he beck pedaled and said: “I will be a trust but verify person.” Rear Adm. Randollph Mahr, the deputy Program Executive Officer for the F-35, said “I have high confidence that that tailhook will be catching wires at Lakehurst.”

In other testing, the Navy found that its L-class ships would have to be adapted to the F-35, and “ship change notices are going out now to the L-class ships,” said Rear Adm. Mark Darrah, commander of the Naval Air Warfare Center Aircraft Division. “We have to adapt the ships to the new environment” that comes with the F-35s, he said.

The Navy was adding thermite coating to the flight decks to guard against the heat blast from the vertical-lift engines of the F-35Bs, Darrah said. Additional baffling will be added to the substructure to lower the decibel level below decks, he said.

The $400 billion-plus F-35 program has been hit by a string of technical setbacks and is now running about 70 percent over initial cost estimates and is years behind schedule.

The U.S. still plans to buy 2,443 of the single-seat F-35s – a conventional landing and takeoff F-35A model the Air Force; a short takeoff and vertical landing F-35B version for the Marines, and a carrier-based F-35C version for the Navy.

Britain, Italy, Netherlands, Australia, Canada, Norway, Denmark, and Turkey have agreed to partner in the F-35 program, but several of the partner nations have been backing away from the deal as problems have mounted in production and testing.
Good to hear, what with the F35B down to get another round of sea trials this year (i think), it'd be good to see some footage the C getting some naval action rather than land based launches.
 

colay

New Member
..The Navy was adding thermite coating to the flight decks to guard against the heat blast from the vertical-lift engines of the F-35Bs, Darrah said. Additional baffling will be added to the substructure to lower the decibel level below decks, he said...

Probably should read "Thermion".. thermite definitely not a good idea.
 

colay

New Member
Some good creative thinking in converting the third MLP into a floating staging base with beefed up aviation capabilities in support of littoral operations. An AFSB variant will add to the basic MLP cost of around $430M but it would be lots cheaper than current aviation ships in the Gator fleet.

Admiral Buzby on the Evolving Capabilities of a USN-USMC MSC Enabled Fleet | SLDInfo

Admiral Buzby: With the MLP-Afloat Forward Staging Base (MLP-AFSB) or AFSB variant of the ship, you are seeing the versatility built into the ship. The main capability of the ship is its versatility. The AFSB will be the latest incarnation of what one can fit into that 800 feet of empty space that fills a need, fills a requirement without having to go out and purpose build at great expense, and at great length of design, a capability to serve the war fighter.

With the AFSB, you will see a fairly robust aviation capability; a fairly robust boat capability to support a whole host of different missions. I think it’s a very strong, and very positive step forward in this ship’s future.

You could very easily, given the dimensions that we are currently envisioning in the design of AFSB, hanger space, deck space, we’re designing it on the big side for CH-53s and that kind of asset.

But you could conceivably have an ACE aboard that ship, supporting a reinforced MEU or something like that because you could probably carry Cobras on it, UAVs, and could envisage putting some joint strike fighters on there in small numbers if you really needed to, or MV 22s. One could be very creative in mixing the aviation assets on that ship.

(Note to Mods - pls. feel free to transfer to US Navy thread if more appropriate. Tnx)
 

the road runner

Active Member
Just a short video from LM of BF-01 ,F-35B doing a Vertical take off and Vertical landing.Pretty impressive stuff.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW28Mb1YvwY"]First F-35B Vertical Takeoff Test - YouTube[/nomedia]
 

OPSSG

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(Note to Mods - pls. feel free to transfer to US Navy thread if more appropriate. Tnx)
Not to worry, it looks fine here (especially if the news is developed into a force structure discussion for the F-35B and sea basing).

F-35B IOC To Come ‘Latter Half of 2015,’ Marine Commandant Gen. Amos Says

29 May 2013 -- Just two days before the Pentagon is required by Congress to report when the different versions of F-35 will hit Initial Operating Capability, that mark when the services begin to deliver planes that are sort of ready for war missions and serious training, Marine Commandant Gen. James Amos told me that the Marines IOC date will be the “latter half of 2015.” The definition of IOC will be delivery of 10 planes with 10 crews. Full squadrons will comprise 15 planes, he said during an appearance at the Brookings Institution... The Air Force and Navy must also present their IOC dates to Congress by Friday. The Air Force date is expected by many to be late in 2017...

<snip>

...Fun moment of the event: Brookings’ top defense expert Mike O’Hanlon asked Amos if the Air Force should buy F-35Bs, given how vulnerable runways are becoming. Amos, squirming a bit in his seat, smiled and said: “You know I’m not going to answer that.” And he didn’t...

<snip>
I am not impressed with the IOC announcement (it really reflects program politics), as the first US Marine F-35B squadron is not at its normal strength at IOC.
 
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OPSSG

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Here is the actual document presented to congress.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Portals/AWeek/Ares/F-35_IOC_Joint_Report_FINAL.pdf

Each program IOC has two dates, an "Objective" date (the earlier of the two) and a "Threshold" date (the later of the two).
As per SpudmanWP's post in the other F-35 program thread, quoted below is (i) the Marine F-35B IOC dates, followed by (ii) the USN F-35C IOC dates, with the crucial software version and threshold dates highlighted in blue. It is clear that the critical risk to be managed for USAF (threshold date of December 2016) and USN is unforeseen delays in software developments; and for the three services to set threshold IOC dates, it means that they are confident that the worse parts of the SDD program is behind them (see link to the report to Congress).

(i) United States Marine Corps F-35B IOC Date and Capabilities:

Marine Corps F-35B IOC shall be declared when the first operational squadron is trained, manned, and equipped to conduct CAS, Offensive and Defensive Counter Air, Air Interdiction, Assault Support Escort, and Armed Reconnaissance in concert with Marine Air Ground Task Force resources and capabilities. The F-35B shall have the ability to conduct operational missions utilizing SDD program of record weapons and mission systems. The aircraft will be in a Block 2B configuration with the requisite SDD performance envelope and weapon clearances. The first Marine Corps F-35B operational squadron shall have 10-16 primary aircraft and shall be capable of deploying and performing its assigned mission(s). Support and sustainment elements shall include spares, support equipment, tools, technical publications, training programs and devices, and Autonomic Logistic Information System V2.

Marine Corps IOC is capability based and will be declared when the above conditions are met. If the F-35 IMS Version 7 executes according to plan, Marine Corps F-35B IOC criteria could be met between July 2015 (Objective) and December 2015 (Threshold)...

(ii) United States Navy F-35C IOC Date and Capabilities:

Navy F-35C IOC shall be declared when the first operational squadron is manned, trained, and equipped to conduct assigned missions. The F-35C shall have the ability to conduct operational missions utilizing SDD program of record weapons and mission systems. The aircraft will be in a Block 3F configuration with the requisite SDD performance envelope and weapon clearances. The first Navy F-35C operational squadron shall have 10 primary aircraft and shall be capable of performing its assigned mission(s). Support and sustainment elements shall include spares, support equipment, tools, technical publications, training programs and devices, Autonomic Logistic Information System V2, and completion of ship qualifications and certifications to meet Commander, Naval Air System Command (NAVAIRSYSCOM) requirements to deploy aboard aircraft carriers.

Navy IOC is capability based and will be declared when the above conditions are met. If the F-35 IMS Version 7 executes according to plan, Navy F-35C IOC criteria could be met between August 2018 (Objective) and February 2019 (Threshold)...
 
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ADMk2

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Not to worry, it looks fine here (especially if the news is developed into a force structure discussion for the F-35B and sea basing).



I am not impressed with the IOC announcement (it really reflects program politics), as the first US Marine F-35B squadron is not at its normal strength at IOC.
I don't think it's all that much of an issue. A squadron rarely has it's "paper" strength of assets available for deployment.

USMC IOC is announced as intending to be based on a deployable capability of 10 aircraft. A USMC squadron's paper-strength may well be 12 aircraft, but can a single squadron necessarily deploy all those aircraft by itself on a regular basis? Normally some airframes will be in various levels of maintenance / servicing etc and therefore be unavailable for operations.

I suspect whichever USMC Squadron is chosen to deploy the IOC capability WILL have it's full complement of aircraft on paper, (USMC will have more than enough F-35B's in 2015 to fully equip a single squadron afterall) with 10 aircraft prepared for operations as required, with the necessary deployable support.

RAAF squadrons are nominally 18 aircraft and we have 3 operational Hornet Squadrons, yet it took aircraft and assets from multiple squadrons to deploy an operational detachment of 14 aircraft to Op. Falconer in 2003...
 
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OPSSG

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I don't think it's all that much of an issue. A squadron rarely has it's "paper" strength of assets available for deployment.
Agreed.

USMC IOC is announced as intending to be based on a deployable capability of 10 aircraft. A USMC squadron's paper-strength may well be 12 aircraft, but can a single squadron necessarily deploy all those aircraft by itself on a regular basis? Normally some airframes will be in various levels of maintenance / servicing etc and therefore be unavailable for operations.
Now the the details of what is required for IOC has been released (rather than a by-the-way comment in a prior news report), I have no further concerns with the 2015 IOC date for the F-35B with the US Marines.

The Singapore Minister of Defence will need to announce a decision, later this year or early next year; and the release of the details for IOC will demonstrate US Marine Corps confidence and help with providing context in the Singapore news cycle, when the announcement for procurement occurs. IIRC, the South Koreans may be done with their selection process by July 2013 (with bidding process due in June 2013); and may beat any Singapore announcement on the subject.

I suspect which USMC Squadron is chosen to deploy the IOC capability WILL have it's full complement of aircraft on paper, (USMC will have more than enough F-35B's in 2015 to fully equip a single squadron afterall) with 10 aircraft prepared for operations as required, with the necessary deployable support.

RAAF squadrons are nominally 18 aircraft and we have 3 operational Hornet Squadrons, yet it took aircraft and assets from multiple squadrons to deploy an operational detachment of 14 aircraft to Op. Falconer in 2003...
Agreed and appreciate the context provided, with the Op. Falconer example.
 
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t68

Well-Known Member
I have been trying to find the miniuim distance needed for a catapult launch for the F35C, just wondering if NAe Sao Paulo and MN Charles De Gaulle with their 52 and 75 metre cats could in use the aircraft or would they only be able to take off light loaded, if that's the case what options are there for the NAe Sao Paulo which currently use the A4
 

colay

New Member
I have been trying to find the miniuim distance needed for a catapult launch for the F35C, just wondering if NAe Sao Paulo and MN Charles De Gaulle with their 52 and 75 metre cats could in use the aircraft or would they only be able to take off light loaded, if that's the case what options are there for the NAe Sao Paulo which currently use the A4
Accounts of the CdG participation in the Libyan conflict indicate that it was unable to launch Rafales at max bombloads. IIRC this was attributed to the modest max speed of the carrier. Maybe the catapult capacity may have been a factor as well. A fully loaded F-35C weighs much heavier, about the same as a Tomcat.
 

RobWilliams

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That's an impression I got too, that under certain circumstances the ship was unable to launch Rafales at their MTOW.

One other point is that it was well published in the UK that the F35C was 'too heavy to land on the deck of the carrier'. If that means an F35C fully loaded was too heavy for the arrestor gear or the deck was just too weak wasn't specificed, just "too heavy".
 

AegisFC

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That's an impression I got too, that under certain circumstances the ship was unable to launch Rafales at their MTOW.

One other point is that it was well published in the UK that the F35C was 'too heavy to land on the deck of the carrier'. If that means an F35C fully loaded was too heavy for the arrestor gear or the deck was just too weak wasn't specificed, just "too heavy".
Or it could of been a fabrication to justify the switch back to the original design?
When the USN decided it didn't want the DDG-1000's they told congress the design couldn't fire SM-2. It could.
 

RobWilliams

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Wouldn't be surprised, didn't hear much about it when they were touting how good the interoperability would be . . . .
 

Volkodav

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Well the point Abe made ages ago was the B, operating from a purpose designed carrier can generate a much higher sortie rate than the C from a CTOL carrier. If you are only talking limited number of airframes in service to start with then the one that can generate more sorties is the way to go. Or perhaps I have it back to front, you have a requirement to generate a minimum number of sorties and the B lets you do it with fewer airframes.
 

StobieWan

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One other point is that it was well published in the UK that the F35C was 'too heavy to land on the deck of the carrier'. If that means an F35C fully loaded was too heavy for the arrestor gear or the deck was just too weak wasn't specificed, just "too heavy".
The Phoenix Think Tank did make much of the supposed inability of the CVF to get C's into the air and back in "light airs" - ie, low wind - unfortunately their calculations were based on total fantasy. I don't think there was any serious issue to be answered there and it wasn't cited in the reasons for the decision to revert to B.
 

RobWilliams

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Heh, you'd think that Sharkey being one of them that they'd be singing the C's praises, if his more recent crapping on the B is anything to go by.
 

StobieWan

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Heh, you'd think that Sharkey being one of them that they'd be singing the C's praises, if his more recent crapping on the B is anything to go by.
He was very much in the camp of "buy SuperHornet" at the time I believe. I seem to recall that they ran an article claiming that as the F35C was designed to work with nuclear carriers, which could all do 45 knots (apparently..) then clearly CVF wouldn't get the chuff up to launch or recover aircraft if it was a really calm day in hot humid weather.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
F-35B makes first landing at sea... at night.

Marine test pilot makes first F-35B night landing at sea > Headquarters Marine Corps > News Article Display

http://media.dma.mil/2013/Aug/15/2000705976/-1/-1/0/130814-N-ML172-136.JPG

Lt. Col. C.R. “Jimi” Clift makes the first F-35B Lightning II night landing on USS Wasp during the second at-sea F-35 developmental test event, Aug. 14. The F-35 Integrated Test Force is embarked on the Wasp for three weeks to expand the F-35B operational envelope in preparation for Marine Corps initial operational capability test in 2015. (Photo by MCSN Michael T. Forbes II, U.S. Navy) (Photo by MCSN Michael T. Forbes II)


During the 18-day long ship trials, two F-35Bs will conduct a series of tests to determine the aircraft’s suitability for sea-based operations. Pilots will expand the F-35Bs allowable wind envelope for launch and recovery, conduct first-ever night operations at sea, conduct initial mission systems evaluations at sea, evaluate the dynamic interface associated with aircraft operations on a moving flight deck, and further evaluate shipboard sustainment of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

At the conclusion of DT-II, the Navy and Marine Corps team should have sufficient data to support certification for future F-35B Lighting II shipboard operations in anticipation of 2015 deployment.
More at the jump.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
Video with night landing and night takeoff.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jJglPPDm-w"]Two F-35B Lightning II Jets Begin Developmental Testing II Aboard USS Wasp - YouTube[/nomedia]


Another View

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW72dBp5DBM"]F-35B Accomplishes First Night Vertical Landing Aboard USS WASP - YouTube[/nomedia]
 
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