F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

[jack412]

It may be a mistake if it states that "In the FY2013 Budget the USAF lists the A at $112 million flyaway for 1,763"
As I think that would be the 2013 LRIP flyaway for that years production only and make more sense than the f-35 FRP flyaway has gone up 50% since last year.

 

[LGB]

It's not a mistake. The average unit flyaway cost for all 1,763 USAF F-35A's is now projected at $112 million. It's on page 1 of the P-40 (page 65 in the doc).

Here's a link, under procurement it's volume 1:

Air Force Financial Management & Comptroller - Budget

It may be a mistake if it states that "In the FY2013 Budget the USAF lists the A at $112 million flyaway for 1,763"
As I think that would be the 2013 LRIP flyaway for that years production only and make more sense than the f-35 FRP flyaway has gone up 50% since last year.

 

[jack412]

Thanks for the link and I see what you are saying, On the face of it there is an increase which may be an accounting change, because the 2011 budget forcast has different flyaway costs for the previous years too, page 57
http://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-110211-038.pdf

I'm sure in time it will all be worked out why it has changed.
Did you see in your link that the flyaway isn't the URF ? as per the description "Flyaway unit cost includes recurring flyaway, non-recurring flyaway, and ancillary equipment."
The 2017 LRIP is $107m recurring flyaway, non-recurring flyaway and ancillary equipment.
The partners don't pay US non-recurring costs, they buy at TY URF and that would be less, then add their own additional costs.

 

[Firn]

It's not a mistake. The average unit flyaway cost for all 1,763 USAF F-35A's is now projected at $112 million. It's on page 1 of the P-40 (page 65 in the doc).

Here's a link, under procurement it's volume 1:

Air Force Financial Management & Comptroller - Budget

I guess we have to wait and see how much the true (R&D, inflation-adjusted, etc) costs are, for example for Italy.

 

[StobieWan]

Italy buys its first three F-35s. With a shocking announcement:


That's the Italian take on the pricing they're getting for the F35A.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Italy buys its first three F-35s. With a shocking announcement:


That's the Italian take on the pricing they're getting for the F35A.

The 2009 briefing I attended for Typhoon gave a flyaway cost of $120m per plane. The RAAF JSF stated price has consistently been $67m per plane

no doubt we're see more crap running around from the virginia woolf set.

the problem for some of that lot was that they were so hysterical drawing their line in the sand that they have no fallback solution or answers. it will continue to be a situation for them where JSF spells the end of combat jet fighter capability for the west etc...

in fact, the more they bleat about it the more they actually damage their own position - no matter how earnest they tell the story, the reality is different from the hysteria.

eg APA are JSF's best advertising. Long may they reign.

 

[Firn]

The 2009 briefing I attended for Typhoon gave a flyaway cost of $120m per plane. The RAAF JSF stated price has consistently been $67m per plane

Hopefully the prices will not creep up higher, the Italian budget is quite strained.

As usual it is important to keep things in perspective.

 

[LGB]

It's not an accounting change. If you go back and look at the previous years budgets the projected costs, and that's all these merely are, have increased every year. The rate of increase is exactly why some have been very concerned over the program. Consider that from FY09 to FY13 the projected unit flyaway is up almost 50%.

The unit flyaway cost is the main number used in discussions among the branches and agencies of the US Government. When discussing a foreign sale one can inflate the price by citing the total package cost, including various items that do not relate in any way to the cost of the aircraft, but one can also downplay the costs by not including items that do reflect upon the direct costs. Thus it's difficult to get a hard number and in my view just citing URF isn't the best way to gauge the actual cost.

It's worth noting that unit flyaway, REC flyaway, and other numbers used to be included in budget docs more prominently but in the interests of clarity unit flyaway has become the norm. It's always page one on the P-40 of any program now and it's the only flyaway cost listed. In any case the rate of cost increase is the same upward trend no matter what set of numbers one looks at.

It's also worth noting that the current price increase reflects the bottom up review filtering through the system. Adm Venlet should be given the benefit of the doubt that current projections are based on sound analysis. That said cost concerns are going to remain the main concern of the program for some time.

Thanks for the link and I see what you are saying, On the face of it there is an increase which may be an accounting change, because the 2011 budget forcast has different flyaway costs for the previous years too, page 57
http://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-110211-038.pdf

I'm sure in time it will all be worked out why it has changed.
Did you see in your link that the flyaway isn't the URF ? as per the description "Flyaway unit cost includes recurring flyaway, non-recurring flyaway, and ancillary equipment."
The 2017 LRIP is $107m recurring flyaway, non-recurring flyaway and ancillary equipment.
The partners don't pay US non-recurring costs, they buy at TY URF and that would be less, then add their own additional costs.

 

[LGB]

GF I'm certain you know exactly what you are referring to when you say $67 million per plane but without stating in what years dollars and exactly what kind of costs (unit flyaway, REC, etc) others may not be certain.

The projected unit flyaway for the 2,400 or so US F-35's has increased in price in the budget documents almost 50% the past 4 years. The program has been restructured, again, and has been slowed. It's great for the RAAF if they are getting the aircraft for the same price cited 3 years ago but that does not reflect the cost to the US for a projected buy of 2,400 or so aircraft.

The 2009 briefing I attended for Typhoon gave a flyaway cost of $120m per plane. The RAAF JSF stated price has consistently been $67m per plane

no doubt we're see more crap running around from the virginia woolf set.

the problem for some of that lot was that they were so hysterical drawing their line in the sand that they have no fallback solution or answers. it will continue to be a situation for them where JSF spells the end of combat jet fighter capability for the west etc...

in fact, the more they bleat about it the more they actually damage their own position - no matter how earnest they tell the story, the reality is different from the hysteria.

eg APA are JSF's best advertising. Long may they reign.

 

[jeffb]

GF I'm certain you know exactly what you are referring to when you say $67 million per plane but without stating in what years dollars and exactly what kind of costs (unit flyaway, REC, etc) others may not be certain.

The projected unit flyaway for the 2,400 or so US F-35's has increased in price in the budget documents almost 50% the past 4 years. The program has been restructured, again, and has been slowed. It's great for the RAAF if they are getting the aircraft for the same price cited 3 years ago but that does not reflect the cost to the US for a projected buy of 2,400 or so aircraft.

What is this projected cost you're using actually based on? The average flyaway cost of *ALL* models (A, B, C)? Does it include prototypes or development costs? etc...

There's a reason your numbers don't compare to the RAAF's and its not the laters error...

 

[LGB]

They're not my numbers. They are the average unit flyaway cost in the FY2013 USAF Budget. The USAF currently projects the average unit flyaway for 1,763 F-35A's to be $112 million. The FY13 USN Budget lists the 321 F-35C's at $139 million and the 290 B's at $144 million.

The documents are easily available and explain in detail what costs are included within unit flyaway. In any case exactly how can the future price of a program that will be in testing for years and production for decades made today be anything other than a projection?

What is this projected cost you're using actually based on? The average flyaway cost of *ALL* models (A, B, C)? Does it include prototypes or development costs? etc...

There's a reason your numbers don't compare to the RAAF's and its not the laters error...

 

[jack412]

mate read my post again, it isn't URF unit recurring flyaway, but it is a type of flyaway, as per in the description box on the page of your link

 

[gf0012-aust]

GF I'm certain you know exactly what you are referring to when you say $67 million per plane but without stating in what years dollars and exactly what kind of costs (unit flyaway, REC, etc) others may not be certain.

those prices were validated and confirmed by the Chief as recently as 4 weeks ago

 

[StobieWan]

The 2009 briefing I attended for Typhoon gave a flyaway cost of $120m per plane. The RAAF JSF stated price has consistently been $67m per plane

no doubt we're see more crap running around from the virginia woolf set.

the problem for some of that lot was that they were so hysterical drawing their line in the sand that they have no fallback solution or answers. it will continue to be a situation for them where JSF spells the end of combat jet fighter capability for the west etc...

in fact, the more they bleat about it the more they actually damage their own position - no matter how earnest they tell the story, the reality is different from the hysteria.

eg APA are JSF's best advertising. Long may they reign.

I seem to recall Canada's pricing was very similar to the Australian figure. Oddly Philip Hammond from the UK MOD is being quizzed about rising costs for the UK due to foreign order cuts by Italy and Australia. I'm not sure what movement would be caused by that unless it's due to the LRIP phase being extended into the timeline where we'd be buying F35C.

APA hit the level of religious zealotry quite a while back and I note our old troll from Stratpage, Slowman is trolling the F-16.net forum with the same claims about export configuration F35 being less LO than US aircraft as he was three years ago. So, the same empty vessels making the same racket as always .


To be honest, it'd help immensely if everyone just got a decent book on aircraft designs of the west and read it, then they'd notice the same pattern occurring over and over - it'll never work, it doesn't work, it's a classic and the incoming replacement will never work/doesn't work/etc.

 

[Grand Danois]

They're not my numbers. They are the average unit flyaway cost in the FY2013 USAF Budget. The USAF currently projects the average unit flyaway for 1,763 F-35A's to be $112 million. The FY13 USN Budget lists the 321 F-35C's at $139 million and the 290 B's at $144 million.

The documents are easily available and explain in detail what costs are included within unit flyaway. In any case exactly how can the future price of a program that will be in testing for years and production for decades made today be anything other than a projection?

The $112 mil for the A is in then year dollars, so when you shift 170 units downrange the unit cost will go up even if the baseline year dollars price remain the same. The US is also chewing on concurrency costs, which are unlikely to impact much on partners.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Italy buys its first three F-35s. With a shocking announcement:


That's the Italian take on the pricing they're getting for the F35A.

They may be getting a deal, they are after all in early, and I believe with a commitment to assemble/maintain F-35s at the depot level. Its not unheard of when things are moving slowly to take the hit on costs yourself, knowing that you will recoup that loss later in production. Thats one of the tricks of the trade over here is to undercut the competition initially, to get the deal done. One an operational note there are pics of the F-35 with pylons and AAMRAMs on the outboard pylons. It was also carrying some internal stores and sporting some shiny coating on the horizontal stabs, duct tape? Likely at least the temporary fix for the erosion of the horizontal stabs in full AB, could actually be a special metalic tape or bonded metal protectant shield. Any body actually know anything on that?

 

[gf0012-aust]

APA hit the level of religious zealotry quite a while back and I note our old troll from Stratpage, Slowman is trolling the F-16.net forum with the same claims about export configuration F35 being less LO than US aircraft as he was three years ago. So, the same empty vessels making the same racket as always .

as before, JSF's best advertising is the constant harping from the predictable cohort sitting on the sidelines.

re export configs, his strike rate on getting anything accurate (JSF, Sth Koreas super duper stealth fighter from Boeing, Sth Koreas super duper home grown fighter, relationships with Japan, Japans military intent, air craft carrier issues etc... have all been spectacularly wrong. Despite the fact that some of us in here have been to any number of official briefings with both US and host AirForce or Snr Govt officials stating that we have fundamentally identical fitouts (RAAF actually have extra kit instead of USAF config), it doesn't stop the armchair brigade waxing lyrical about things that they are fundamentally clueless about.

Although I have a different view to some in Govt about ignoring the idiot brigade, I can attest to the philosophy being of sound purpose to maintain your own sanity.

Responding to muppets just continues to serves as a vehicle of animation. Let the blood run free.

They'll still be sounding off in 30yrs time when the US ANG starts to park their first generation handovers...

 

[the road runner]

Oddly Philip Hammond from the UK MOD is being quizzed about rising costs for the UK due to foreign order cuts by Italy and Australia.

I knew that Italy was cutting its JSF ,but Australia is cutting its orders to? I think i missed that news,what is the number that Australia is looking at purchasing now?

 

[ADMk2]

I knew that Italy was cutting its JSF ,but Australia is cutting its orders to? I think i missed that news,what is the number that Australia is looking at purchasing now?

Not yet. We are still officially getting "up to 100" but Israel has increased it's planned order and Japan's order means that despite Italy's cut the number of airframes to be ordered by partner nations or exported is still above the previous numbers...

 

[Andrew McL]

The Defense Acquisition Board (DAB) met yesterday US time and has approved the Milestone B recertification of the JSF program. This has been hanging over the program's head since it tripped the Nunn-McCurdy wire nearly two years ago!