F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

[swerve]

In the arena of air combat there are two phases. The first phase, one we haven’t seen for a while, is always to achieve the control of the air space, first over your territory then if you can over your enemies’ buy “whatever means” possible. Whatever means includes having the hottest aircraft but also includes many other capacities, some of which are not so glamorous as are fighter jets or as visible to the public, nor even normally closely associated directly air power itself in most people’s eyes. .

Actually, we've seen it very recently. That's exactly what was done over Libya several months ago. Think a bit & you'll realise there are other modern examples.

 

[Belesari]

Actually, we've seen it very recently. That's exactly what was done over Libya several months ago. Think a bit & you'll realise there are other modern examples.

Havn;t we dont that in libya and in Iraq? You could count afghainistan but that would be silly they had no airforce to begin with.

 

[Air Force Brat]

The high low mix debate is one that will be with us forever. The pilots always want the hottest iron that can be made (who can blame them) and the bean counters always want the cheapest. F-22 is an air superiority fighter and no matter the level of technology it has or does not have, it will never be a very good attack aircraft because it was not designed for that role. A true air superiority fighter may be able to do other tasks, some of them quite well, but no destine compromises were made in its building to do them. So if it can do them, it doses them less efficiently than an aircraft that was designed to do them. To compare the two is unfair to both designs.

In the arena of air combat there are two phases. The first phase, one we haven’t seen for a while, is always to achieve the control of the air space, first over your territory then if you can over your enemies’ buy “whatever means” possible. Whatever means includes having the hottest aircraft but also includes many other capacities, some of which are not so glamorous as are fighter jets or as visible to the public, nor even normally closely associated directly air power itself in most people’s eyes.

The second phase after achieving air dominance is the ability to fully exploit the use of that air space you have gained control of. While the first phase can be achieved with a relatively small number of highly advanced aircraft, properly fought, and carefully supported. The second phase requires numbers. No matter how wonderful the platform may be it can only be at one place at one time. To fully exploit the achievement of air dominance requires three times as many aircraft than the first phase. But they can be simpler, more specialized, and far cheaper to build, maintain and to train up.

Most air forces in the world are not powerful enough to do both tasks and so they properly concentrate most of their resources in denying the air space over their own territory to any potential enemy (where they can be hurt the most). Hence the perception that the high end is the only one that counts. Most air forces are mainly defensive in nature because that is all that most countries can afford to own and operate. It has been a long time since there has been a peer to peer long drawn out air campaign to determine air dominance. I think Korea was the last one where there was a real fight over who would dominate. Not even Vietnam was ever in doubt so there has been three generations of air force people who have never fought such a campaign and do not know how to think in those terms. But the US must be prepared for that possibility.

Well rip to quote some really old heads, "If you ain't a pilot, you ain't," hope you can accept that in the spirit of collegial interchange, and yes I R a pilot, also the son of an "Air Force Pilot". You are absolutely correct, the pilot will always choose the most capable airframe, electronics that help you get that job done, while important are secondary. I believe I would be correct stating that most pilots flying air combat or strike missions would prefer that second engine, not only for performance, but for the system redundancy that engine provides. Trust me when I say that there will be F-35 drivers who won't come home on that factor alone and that second engine of the F-22 will save someones life. Theres still every reason to believe the F-22 will come out on top in a head to head confrontation with an F-35. A survey of USAF fighter pilot/strike pilots would likely overwhelmingly favor going into combat in the Raptor as opposed to the Lightening II, just a hunch. To Abe I posit to you sir, that there will never be 3000 F-35s produced, in fact to date Australia has only agreed to purchase 14. No one with a checkbook will deny that the cost of the F-35 goes up daily, I would almost bet money that it will soon exceed the cost of the F-22, but as some other Wag has already asserted that argument is moot. Being the eternal optimist, I hope that we will soon have regime change here in the heartland, who hopefully will realize before its too late that we likely have half to a third as many Raptors as we need to maintain the peace. So yes the idea that the Raptor is the Hi and the Lightning is the Low is a USAF concept, and yes we are shorting the Hi. I hope and pray that the proponents of the F-35, of which I have now become one, are correct in presupposing that the F-35 will ultimately be Hi over whatever or whoever may be the opposition. That our stealth drone gave itself up and surrendered to the Iranian's, "Cowardly Electronics" seem to indicate the foolishness of proclaiming pilots obsolete in the forseeable future. The F-35 has the potential to be a pivotal and powerfull force to maintain freedom as we know it, and Abe, I hope we do end up with 3,000 F-35s Buddy, but how much of your own money are you willing to put on that today? Really! with the advances in Air Defenses of our potential adversaries, somebody will be on the tip of the spear, and if he or she is willing to make that bet, I'd like to give them the best chance of a safe ride home, even if it costs me extra money, because after all freedom isn't free is it".

 

[rip]

Actually, we've seen it very recently. That's exactly what was done over Libya several months ago. Think a bit & you'll realise there are other modern examples.

Libya was not even close to a peer to peer conflict. The first Gulf was much closer and in that case it only took three days to gain control of the air space. But even that much larger confrontation was not anything like the battle of Britain or North Vietnam. The air space over Korea was in doubt at the start because the west was not prepared and the MIG-15 was a better jet fight until the F-86 showed up.

 

[colay]

Unless you're planning some sort of hit-and-run attack ala El Dorado Canyon, then control of the air becomes a top priority for prolonged operations in a hostile theater of action. Your ability to effective deploy and operate other assets will be determined to a large degree on how well you deal with threats in the air and from the surface.

 

[SpudmanWP]

I might as well make it official here...

Japan announces the winner of the F-X comp.... The F-35.

Lockheed Martin F-35 wins Japan fighter jet deal | Reuters

 

[colay]

I might as well make it official here...

Japan announces the winner of the F-X comp.... The F-35.

Lockheed Martin F-35 wins Japan fighter jet deal | Reuters

Come Hell, or highwater or QLR, .. .. a good day for the program.

 

[gf0012-aust]

well, we were predicting that it would be JsF for Japan months and months ago... despite all the naysayers

sweetman will be frothing again - and I can hardly wait to hear what the usual lot say.

 

[weegee]

well, we were predicting that it would be JsF for Japan months and months ago... despite all the naysayers

sweetman will be frothing again - and I can hardly wait to hear what the usual lot say.

Yes it seems as though when presented with all the correct information on this plane people seem to choose it, it is almost as though the information on the internet is not complete imagine that! and that it does not tell the whole story hmm strange haha Maybe if the naysayers saw all the stats on this plane they would change their minds? but then again they would probably just say it was all a conspiracy to hide all the bad information.
I wonder what will happen to the naysayers when it is flying perfectly in the sky and maybe even exceed's original performance stats?

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

well, we were predicting that it would be JsF for Japan months and months ago... despite all the naysayers

There's going to be at least a five year delay in getting those planes - if the timetable doesn't slip at all. It was quite reasonable to take the view that the F-35 would be deferred to replacing the F-15s.

 

[colay]

There's going to be at least a five year delay in getting those planes - if the timetable doesn't slip at all. It was quite reasonable to take the view that the F-35 would be deferred to replacing the F-15s.

Its not really a delay.. the Japanese required a 2016 delivery and based on the projected manufacturing schedule, the USG/LM committed to this in their proposal.

 

[gf0012-aust]

There's going to be at least a five year delay in getting those planes - if the timetable doesn't slip at all. It was quite reasonable to take the view that the F-35 would be deferred to replacing the F-15s.

if the projected is 2016, then I would assume that they are pulling an initial batch off someone elses slot (with their blessing). so not a tagalong build.

that slot hijack may be the case if any of partners seeking to defer see it as a way out.

the issue then is that an early slot is a higher cost, so are they picking up that higher rate etc...

NFI from me though

 

[Sea Toby]

There's going to be at least a five year delay in getting those planes - if the timetable doesn't slip at all. It was quite reasonable to take the view that the F-35 would be deferred to replacing the F-15s.

That may be true, but is anyone else doing any better with newly designed and developed aircraft? How long has New Zealand waited for NH90 helicopters? How long has South Africa waited for A400 transports? So long, South Africa cancelled their order.

 

[colay]

if the projected is 2016, then I would assume that they are pulling an initial batch off someone elses slot (with their blessing). so not a tagalong build.

that slot hijack may be the case if any of partners seeking to defer see it as a way out.

the issue then is that an early slot is a higher cost, so are they picking up that higher rate etc...

NFI from me though

LM doesn't seem overly concerned about a 2016 delivery.. they claim to be able to accommodate any possible Korean order at the same time.

Lockheed Lightning II Strikes in Tokyo | AVIATION WEEK

..The Japanese aircraft will be part of the low-rate initial production 8 (LRIP 8) batch. Israel is also getting its first aircraft from this lot. The LRIP 8 aircraft will have Block 3 software, which will be the version required by the U.S. Air Force to declare initial operational capability, most likely in 2018.

Steve O’Bryan, vice president of F-35 business development, declined to outline any unique modifications that Tokyo requested.

Despite concern from Pentagon testers that the F-35 program will not be able to deliver jets in 2016 owing to an expectation of further developmental problems arising in flight testing (flight tests are only 18% complete), a senior Lockheed executive says that the date “is not something we are very concerned about” achieving. ..

O’Bryan also says that the company can accommodate additional sales in LRIP 8 to South Korea should the country follow Tokyo’s lead and select the Joint Strike Fighter for its requirement of 60 aircraft. “There is capacity available,” he told reporters on a late-night teleconference in the U.S. “We have tooling available” for more jets in that lot.

 

[alexsa]

............. . I believe I would be correct stating that most pilots flying air combat or strike missions would prefer that second engine, not only for performance, but for the system redundancy that engine provides. Trust me when I say that there will be F-35 drivers who won't come home on that factor alone and that second engine of the F-22 will save someones life".

This statement would have justification if the F-16 had only been produced in small numbers (ignoring the other very successful single engine strike and fighter aircraft in the past) and had been rejected by many possible operators............ except it hasn't.

............. A survey of USAF fighter pilot/strike pilots would likely overwhelmingly favor going into combat in the Raptor as opposed to the Lightening II, just a hunch".

Actually it sounds like empassioned wishful thinking. I would be more impressed if thsi was back up by some evidence. I could equally say 'at a hunch msot pimots would prefer the F-35' for the same relevance.:lam

.......... . Being the eternal optimist, I hope that we will soon have regime change here in the heartland.........".

You sure you mean regime change rather than a change of government. You need to pick your words a little carefully.

 

[Sea Toby]

LM doesn't seem overly concerned about a 2016 delivery.. they claim to be able to accommodate any possible Korean order at the same time.

Lockheed Lightning II Strikes in Tokyo | AVIATION WEEK

..The Japanese aircraft will be part of the low-rate initial production 8 (LRIP 8) batch. Israel is also getting its first aircraft from this lot. The LRIP 8 aircraft will have Block 3 software, which will be the version required by the U.S. Air Force to declare initial operational capability, most likely in 2018.

Steve O’Bryan, vice president of F-35 business development, declined to outline any unique modifications that Tokyo requested.

Despite concern from Pentagon testers that the F-35 program will not be able to deliver jets in 2016 owing to an expectation of further developmental problems arising in flight testing (flight tests are only 18% complete), a senior Lockheed executive says that the date “is not something we are very concerned about” achieving. ..

O’Bryan also says that the company can accommodate additional sales in LRIP 8 to South Korea should the country follow Tokyo’s lead and select the Joint Strike Fighter for its requirement of 60 aircraft. “There is capacity available,” he told reporters on a late-night teleconference in the U.S. “We have tooling available” for more jets in that lot.

At the moment Lockheed Martin is no where near top production capacity. While all of the nations are complaining about the delays and wishing for earlier delivery, everyone is playing chicken little too wishing for later cheaper aircraft with the larger production runs as well. Currently the US is stuck at 30 aircraft per year. In a few years its planned the US will buy up to 80 aircraft per year.

 

[swerve]

Libya was not even close to a peer to peer conflict.

Who said peer to peer? You didn't.

If you're going to change the terms when your original argument is shown to be wrong, you should do so by saying something like "Sorry, what I meant to say was peer to peer conflicts".

 

[swerve]

Its not really a delay.. the Japanese required a 2016 delivery and based on the projected manufacturing schedule, the USG/LM committed to this in their proposal.

They now require a 2016 delivery. They started out seeking earlier delivery, but had to let it slip because they postponed a decision. I wonder if the 2016 date was a case of fitting the requirement to the choice, rather than the choice to the requirement. It wouldn't be the first time.

 

[SpudmanWP]

There's going to be at least a five year delay in getting those planes - if the timetable doesn't slip at all. It was quite reasonable to take the view that the F-35 would be deferred to replacing the F-15s.

There is no delay. The soonest they could get ANY fighter with a contract signed today is 2016.

Timeline---
Contract signed 2012
Long Lead items started in 2013
Production started 2014
Deliveries started in 2016

if the projected is 2016, then I would assume that they are pulling an initial batch off someone elses slot (with their blessing). so not a tagalong build.

It is a "tagalong" build.

Notice the "orange" area of this chart. Those are unused slots that can be used for FMS builds. Now that the US has slowed down some of it's LRIP buys, there are MORE orange slots available.

View attachment 5096

 

[ADMk2]

Well rip to quote some really old heads, "If you ain't a pilot, you ain't," hope you can accept that in the spirit of collegial interchange, and yes I R a pilot, also the son of an "Air Force Pilot". You are absolutely correct, the pilot will always choose the most capable airframe, electronics that help you get that job done, while important are secondary.

I r a pilot? R u rly? Lol man. I flew a glider once or twice. Maybe I was even qualified to pilot them. Does that make me qualified to state whether or not the F-35 or the F-22 is the most capable military platform?

For god sakes, wake up to yourself. Not ONE person in the military "chooses" the equipment they operate and the statement about the "electronics" is just plain ludicrous.

Seeing as though simplistic examples are the current order of the day, let's consder this scenario:

Plane A can fly Mach 1.6 and has a radio. (Radio's having somewhat to do with electronics I understand...)

Plane B can fly Mach 2.0 but doesn't have a radio.

Hands up, who'd pick the faster plane? Any pilots prefer to fly the plane without a radio?

I believe I would be correct stating that most pilots flying air combat or strike missions would prefer that second engine, not only for performance, but for the system redundancy that engine provides. Trust me when I say that there will be F-35 drivers who won't come home on that factor alone and that second engine of the F-22 will save someones life.

Clearly your dad isn't an F-16 or an F-22 pilot...

Clearly your math isn't real good either. Why don't you calculate the probability of a crash induced because of a malfunction in an F100 or F110 engine and then multiple that probability x2 (for twin engined fighters) and see whether, on the balance of probabilities you are better off in a single or twin engined fighter?

Oh wait, you don't like that twist on probability and continue to believe (because of some sort of faith based beliefno doubt) that modern single engine fighters are "more likely" to crash than twins?

Okay, well then why don't you go away and research modern US fighters? I don't want to influence your research, but I have read that the safest fighter jet flown by any US service has a -C designation, is in current US service and has both a single engine and a single human flying inside it. Feel free to work out the rest of the details...

Theres still every reason to believe the F-22 will come out on top in a head to head confrontation with an F-35. A survey of USAF fighter pilot/strike pilots would likely overwhelmingly favor going into combat in the Raptor as opposed to the Lightening II, just a hunch.

A hunch? I thought I could take your word for it (as you said only a sentence or two ago) that, the case was that a pilot (of any apparent kind) WOULD prefer a more capable airframe, which the F-22 seems to have, under your apparent definition of what "capable" means?

Why has your apparent confidence on this issue, disappated within a sentence or two?

To Abe I posit to you sir, that there will never be 3000 F-35s produced, in fact to date Australia has only agreed to purchase 14.

Ha! I reckon I've got a good one here... This isn't correct surely? I mean I'm pretty certain Australia DID commit to purchasIng 3000, F-35's, didn't it?

Even if this is so, how does Australia's commitment to (even we haven't signed a contract for them yet or so I'm led to believe) purchasing 14 JSF's prove one way or the other, that there won't be 3000 JSF's built?

No one with a checkbook will deny that the cost of the F-35 goes up daily,

I'm led to believe Lockheed Martin has a checkbook (cheque book even?) I'm also led to believe they firmly believe the F-35 cost isn't rising daily.

But you may be correct, afterall, what would THEY know about production costs for F-35's?

I would almost bet money that it will soon exceed the cost of the F-22,

Me too. It is a WELL known economic theory afterall, that the more you produce a particular product, the greater the cost of it, per individual item...

Such well thought through economic theory clearly demonstrates why the modern competitors to the JSF are so hellbent on NOT selling their products via foreign export...

but as some other Wag has already asserted that argument is moot.

You crazy kids...

Being the eternal optimist, I hope that we will soon have regime change here in the heartland, who hopefully will realize before its too late that we likely have half to a third as many Raptors as we need to maintain the peace.

I couldn't agree more. I've long said that if only we had 561x F-22A Raptors, this foolish war would end...

So yes the idea that the Raptor is the Hi and the Lightning is the Low is a USAF concept, and yes we are shorting the Hi. I hope and pray that the proponents of the F-35, of which I have now become one, are correct

Your correctness seems rather contradictory at times. I hope you aren't correct in EVERYTHING, or we'll be in an awfully confusing mess...

in presupposing that the F-35 will ultimately be Hi over whatever or whoever may be the opposition. That our stealth drone gave itself up and surrendered to the Iranian's, "Cowardly Electronics" seem to indicate the foolishness of proclaiming pilots obsolete in the forseeable future.

I'm pretty sure those "drone" pilots sitting in their demountable buildings don't consider themselves obsolete, but hell, maybe they are? One might wonder why drones are surrending in this time of war (no 561x Raptors to ensure peace you see...) when they are being flown by pilots, but given they have been chosen by these same pilots despite their lack of superior airframes, is it really surprising they are cowardly and surrendering?

The F-35 has the potential to be a pivotal and powerfull force to maintain freedom as we know it, and Abe, I hope we do end up with 3,000 F-35s Buddy, but how much of your own money are you willing to put on that today?

Excellent point. How much of his money IS Abe willing to put into 3000 JSF's?

Really! with the advances in Air Defenses of our potential adversaries, somebody will be on the tip of the spear, and if he or she is willing to make that bet, I'd like to give them the best chance of a safe ride home, even if it costs me extra money, because after all freedom isn't free is it".

Here, here! Our spear riders deserve nothing but the best! Who here is willing (just like Abe) to invest their own money in ensuring our brave spear riders get home safely?