F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

[SpudmanWP]

No decision on FMS D sales has been publicly made. Since they were selling C7s shortly after IOC I see no reason why they would hold back the D.

 

[Marc 1]

it calculates its position by the strength of the transmission and the location of the satelites, It Recieves this information transmits nothing back

A wee small correction - not the strength of the transmission - the length of time the transmission took to reach the receiver:

A GPS receiver calculates its position by precisely timing the signals sent by GPS satellites high above the Earth. Each satellite continually transmits messages that include

the time the message was transmitted
precise orbital information (the ephemeris)
the general system health and rough orbits of all GPS satellites (the almanac).
The receiver uses the messages it receives to determine the transit time of each message and computes the distance to each satellite.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System"]Global Positioning System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:GPS_Satellite_NASA_art-iif.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/GPS_Satellite_NASA_art-iif.jpg/220px-GPS_Satellite_NASA_art-iif.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/8/8d/GPS_Satellite_NASA_art-iif.jpg/220px-GPS_Satellite_NASA_art-iif.jpg[/ame]

 

[alexsa]

But how would the satellite know where to transmit that signal if the F-35 isn't giving feedback? How would the satellite know where the F-35 is if the F-35 isn't transmitting something to it?

Post deleted...... Sorry I see others ahve offered the same advice.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

No decision on FMS D sales has been publicly made. Since they were selling C7s shortly after IOC I see no reason why they would hold back the D.

No decision on FMS D sales has been made, public or private. IOC is really dependent on a/c.

DoD didn't hold back the phase 3 C7 cos they knew they had the phase 4 AIM-120D coming shortly. There's no phase 5 amraam yet.

What I do have are unclassified official docs stating current numbers of AIM-120s being delivered at 351 (FY08 Lot 22 C-7s) and projections at 250 C-7 per year for FMS until FY 2015 (which at current rates of 24 months delivery would mean 2017 deliveries and no FMS for D). ~500-600 Amraams are delivered yearly with a max sustaining rate of 720 (~ 1/2 are projected to be D versions all for US). USAF/USN orders for D is anticipated at 62 (lot 20), 104 (lot 21), 195 (lot 22), 190 (lot 23), 223 (lot 24), 347 (lot 25), 412 (lot 26), 634 (lot 27), 624 (lot 28) and 655 (lot 29 numbers)

I note the legacy a/c (except for the F-16 which will be in FY14) are getting their IOC for the D in FY11 with F-22 only in FY16.

It is interesting to see Israel getting export license for the AIM-120C-7s before phase 3 SWUP was complete. However, if the D was available for export, you can be sure there's already a queue.

I do note that when Raytheon contested the BVRAAM contest with UK, they offered the mid-term and long-term missiles which corresponds to the C-7 and D version so I'm not ruling export sales out. This esp when meteor will be a competitor.

 

[SpudmanWP]

While Phase 5 has not been officially announced, the groundwork is already being laid.

Recently (Fall '09) ATK, the mfg of the AMRAAM motor, was given a contract to develop the next gen AMRAAM motor. That contract is due to be completed by June 2013.

The scope of the CA/FNC program is to develop technologies that will extend missile range, decrease time-to-target, improve end-game maneuverability, and improve the rocket motor's response to insensitive munitions (IM) stimuli. These improvements are oriented towards the 7-inch diameter Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) that is currently in use by the U.S. Navy, U.S. Air Force, and many allied nations, but will be applicable to other air-to-air missile systems.

There are four main areas that ATK will be concentrating their development efforts on which include: high burn rate propellants for improved kinematics; improving case stiffness for reduced weight and agility; low erosion nozzles for improved performance; and multi-pulse propulsion for end-game maneuverability. Additionally, ATK will address the IM requirement by incorporating affordable solutions including an advanced propellant formulation, a low cost composite case, and mitigation safety devices proven on other tactical rocket motor programs.

There is also a mention of an AMRAAM derivative called "MRM concept" that appears in the AMRAAM R&D docs that is separate from JDRADM.

 

[Aussie Digger]

That would be surprising as the -D does not appear to be available for FMS. It might come with a clipped-wing meteor though.

Australia is acquiring new air to air weapons for F-35 and Super Hornet under AIR-6000 Phase 5.

First pass approval for these is due to be given between 2012-13 and 2014-15.

Market solicitation is due between 2012-13 and 2015-16. Year of Decision is between 2014-15 and 2016-17 with material deliveries due between 2016-17 and 2018-19...

If AIM-120-D isn't available for FMS by 2016, I'd be very surprised...

Defence Capability Plan 2009 - Public Version - December 2010 Update

 

[fretburner]

I didn't see anyone post this here, so here' goes: US military unveils possible F-35B redesign in sweeping budget reforms

...The changes would raise the weight and cost of the variant ordered by the US Marine Corps, Gates says. As a result, the F-35B will be placed on the equivalent of a two-year probation, with termination possible if the programme fails to recover, he says.

I guess this makes the F-35 concept a failure eh?

The F-35A and C are supposed to be built around the F-35B. Imagine what the AF and Navy could do with all that "free space" where the lift fan is supposed to be.

It's also a surprise that Gates is quite "Satisfied" with the A and C:

Gates noted that the F-35A conventional take off and landing (CTOL) variant ordered by the Air Force and the F-35C variant ordered by the Navy are proceeding "satisfactorily".

 

[Sea Toby]

I didn't see anyone post this here, so here' goes: US military unveils possible F-35B redesign in sweeping budget reforms

It's also a surprise that Gates is quite "Satisfied" with the A and C:

Gates noted that the F-35A conventional take off and landing (CTOL) variant ordered by the Air Force and the F-35C variant ordered by the Navy are proceeding "satisfactorily".

I believe many were expecting the other shoe would drop with the Bs when the British dropped the Bs earlier. As far as testing goes, the A and C are ahead of schedule with the current testing program, whereas the B has reached a stop sign...

The other nations in the program are fully aware of the testing results... The Bs may eventually be cancelled, but the other models are still on their way... If the Bs aren't fixed within the next two years, all of this conjecture about the Bs may end concerning STOVL carriers...

I don't understand the lift fan area extra space remark with the A and C, as the bomb bay is larger with those models. There isn't any extra space with those models...

 

[jack412]

A&C benefited with the 2006 weight reduction/redesign for the B model, the same may throw benefit again
the A&C put fuel where the lift fan went and as said also gives a bigger bomb bay

 

[fretburner]

I guess my point was, don't you feel that the A and C models would have been better if it wasn't based on the B?

 

[Sampanviking]

I believe that there are only two really pertinent questions to ask regarding the F35

At which point do you decide that the increased unit cost makes going for the F22 the only sensible option?

How far from that point is the current unit price?

 

[Sea Toby]

The F-22 was never planned to replace the large number of USAF F-16s or USN F-18s. NEVER... So lets not even make that suggestion...

As noted in very recent media reports the A and C versions of the F-35 proceed on time, if not ahead of the current schedule without any problems whatsoever. The current design of the Bs is on probation for two years as Lockheed Martin redesigns the fan lift doors. Otherwise there has been no reports of any other major failures with the Bs I am aware of. During testing the As and Cs have met every expectation so far. If anything the thorough testing has slowed the testing down. Most of the software is in the can, but what is left is the tough part. I don't see how writing this software for the F-35 would be much more difficult than writing this software for the F-22 or any other aircraft....

Are the cynics chasing red herrings again? I fully expect Lockheed to solve the lift doors problems. A two year probation isn't a cancellation, not yet. If Lockheed fails, surely the Marines will probably buy Cs instead of Bs, alike the British or buy some Super Hornets in the mix as well...

Its obvious Gates isn't a Lockheed Martin stooge. I have friends in the Marines who would welcome not having F-35Bs or Harriers aboard their amphibious assault ships... Even if the worst happens and the Bs are cancelled, its not the end of the world...

And I wanted to add the air force version, the As, have not been compromised as some may think. If anything, its the Bs and Cs which have been compromised, not the As...

 

[Nemeses2011]

I believe that there are only two really pertinent questions to ask regarding the F35

At which point do you decide that the increased unit cost makes going for the F22 the only sensible option?

How far from that point is the current unit price?

People need to come to turns with reality, the F-22 is DEAD. America's primarly focuses are the F-35, which has advantages over the F-22, and Light and Heavy Bombers. No need for anymore F-22's. Plus, after the Gate's speech, it sounds like the US is going to focus on Light/Heavy bombers going forward, to complement the F- 15/18/22/35's.

 

[gf0012-aust]

People need to come to turns with reality, the F-22 is DEAD. America's primarly focuses are the F-35, which has advantages over the F-22, and Light and Heavy Bombers. No need for anymore F-22's. Plus, after the Gate's speech, it sounds like the US is going to focus on Light/Heavy bombers going forward, to complement the F- 15/18/22/35's.

I'd say that they're broadening the church a bit...

ie the push is towards co-operative dismounted precision delivery. words deliberately chosen here.

 

[moahunter]

I guess my point was, don't you feel that the A and C models would have been better if it wasn't based on the B?

A more interesting hypothetical, is would Lockheed have won the competition if the B variant had not been required? The lack of a lift fan was a big part of why the Boeing lost.

I think the B variant is pretty much dead, it just doesn't make sense to spend so much money just on the Marines.

 

[RubiconNZ]

A more interesting hypothetical, is would Lockheed have won the competition if the B variant had not been required? The lack of a lift fan was a big part of why the Boeing lost.

I think the B variant is pretty much dead, it just doesn't make sense to spend so much money just on the Marines.

It's not just the USMC though, there are obligations to international partners, while the RN has changed course, Italy and Spain both require the F-35B sooner rather than later or each will have sparkling new STOVL carriers with nothing to fly from them, there are no other direct options on the table at this time, though this could change as has already been inferred.

 

[fretburner]

A more interesting hypothetical, is would Lockheed have won the competition if the B variant had not been required? The lack of a lift fan was a big part of why the Boeing lost.

I think the B variant is pretty much dead, it just doesn't make sense to spend so much money just on the Marines.

If I remember it correctly, it was the biggest reason why Boeing lost.

If the B ultimately gets canceled, what are the USMC's (and partner nations') alternative? They can't possibly go back to the X-32 right?

 

[rip]

People need to come to turns with reality, the F-22 is DEAD. America's primarly focuses are the F-35, which has advantages over the F-22, and Light and Heavy Bombers. No need for anymore F-22's. Plus, after the Gate's speech, it sounds like the US is going to focus on Light/Heavy bombers going forward, to complement the F- 15/18/22/35's.

If the world was only run by internal needs, you would be right that the F-22 would be deader than a doornail but that is not the case. If the US feels seriously threatened within the next five or six years, by some outside development so that the external perception becomes the more important one than the internal dynamic, then you would see a new F-22A and F/B-22B come back on line fairly quickly. Remember the first death of the B-1 bomber and how the B-1B came about? I grant you it would take a serious change of direction for us to get to that state of nervous about the outside but that kind of thing has happened before. Since the actions of others, is not within our power of prediction the issue is not quite dead, though it is somewhat unlikely at this time.

Gates might not love the Marine’s but the American people do and they the Marine's, really, really, really want the B variant because of the way they want to fight the next war if it come, in a way that nobody has done fought it before and that have a history of being right about things like that.

 

[Sea Toby]

If the world was only run by internal needs, you would be right that the F-22 would be deader than a doornail but that is not the case. If the US feels seriously threatened within the next five or six years, by some outside development so that the external perception becomes the more important one than the internal dynamic, then you would see a new F-22A and F/B-22B come back on line fairly quickly. Remember the first death of the B-1 bomber and how the B-1B came about? I grant you it would take a serious change of direction for us to get to that state of nervous about the outside but that kind of thing has happened before. Since the actions of others, is not within our power of prediction the issue is not quite dead, though it is somewhat unlikely at this time.

Gates might not love the Marine’s but the American people do and they the Marine's, really, really, really want the B variant because of the way they want to fight the next war if it come, in a way that nobody has done fought it before and that have a history of being right about things like that.

Actually, during this long and deep recession, and large budget deficit, I am hearing in America whether the Marine Corps should have a separate air combat force any more than the US Army... Does America really need a Marine Corps aviation?

 

[Nemeses2011]

If the world was only run by internal needs, you would be right that the F-22 would be deader than a doornail but that is not the case. If the US feels seriously threatened within the next five or six years, by some outside development so that the external perception becomes the more important one than the internal dynamic, then you would see a new F-22A and F/B-22B come back on line fairly quickly. Remember the first death of the B-1 bomber and how the B-1B came about? I grant you it would take a serious change of direction for us to get to that state of nervous about the outside but that kind of thing has happened before. Since the actions of others, is not within our power of prediction the issue is not quite dead, though it is somewhat unlikely at this time.

Gates might not love the Marine’s but the American people do and they the Marine's, really, really, really want the B variant because of the way they want to fight the next war if it come, in a way that nobody has done fought it before and that have a history of being right about things like that.

Let me ask you, what threat do you see the US facing in the next 5 years that would need 100 more F-22's? China and the J20? If you remember it took the us 6 years to go from first-flight to production. By the time China is fielding the J-20, the US will be probably putting 2+ UCAV's in production. China is playing games with the J-20 making the US scared.

Nothing like a threat from China to get the lobbiest scaring the public, and President, up!


Same thing happed with the US/Russia Cold War, when the US said their was a "missile gap" when in fact, it was purposely blown out of proportion to buy more weapons systems.

Also, how is China going to threaten the US when they have been talking about a Carrier for the past 8 years, and again this year? Are Chinese J-20's going to fly the entire Pacific? No, it is to counter regional threats, Russia and India and the PAK FA.

It's Defense "smoke-and mirrors" from the Military Industrial Complex. Like I said on another thread. The US Defense Budget, that was just signed by Obama, is up 7%.