F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

[Air Force Brat]

I agree, capability/reliability will be the measure of the success of an platform and the upgradability aspect also rates high on the overall success of the platform. However, on the F22, I would not consider the oxygen problem as a critical defect against the overall mechanical integrity of the aircraft. But I would consider it as critical defect affecting or having impact on the overall survibability and/or health/safety of the pilot. Although I will admit that the pilot is part of the overall system.

Well the O2 issue on the Raptor may well be physiological from the sound of some of the reports, some U2 pilots suffer from similar symptoms, but Captain Haneys aircraft had undergone a complete powerplant change. They are expiditing the fix on the automatic emergency 02, and General Mike Hostage, Chief of ACC will be flying the Raptor himself, hoping to gain some insight into the problem. I have followed the development of the JSF from the beginning as well, and in the desire to deliver on the product, feel they pushed ahead, when they should have been fixing the problems. I think with all the partners saying "hey", theres been more straight talk, and less LockMart ad filler. They have recently begun sorties in the B as well so things must be doing better, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Military maskirovka for foreign consumption has nothing to do with factory production statistics.

We seem to be on the verge of having another one of those potential jousting moments kicking in which I'm not going to play in.

In short, its about cultural attitude to cooking the books. I'm quite happy to stay subscribed to the post cold war assessments which DFAT and various post cold war FA orgs came up with. We knew they ran the numbers on production only after the cold ware finished because the enthusiasm in their numbers triggered how some western powers made their strategic assessments at the time.

shifting 4 bags of wheat, recycling penant numbers, race tracking flypasts etc are all examples of deceptive conduct to achieve a favourable outcome.

If you want to argue the semanitcs of my position you can do it offline.

I'm done

 

[swerve]

I'm not trying to start anything, just unsure what your position is, & I still don't think you've made it clear. You originally referred to factory production statistics, but have since gone on about cycling wheat through buildings, & racetrack fly pasts.

Are you discussing Soviet published statistics, or Soviet attempts at misinformation for Western observers? If the former, then I don't know why you mention military aircraft, since production numbers were never published by the USSR, nor the tricks with grain. If the latter, then what you've said since the original post makes sense, but doesn't really relate to Soviet statistics. OK, just a slightly sloppy bit of terminology, & no big deal. But a bit confusing.

Were you trying to make a point about the unreliability of US body counts in Vietnam & Cold War attempts to guess Soviet production?

BTW, post-Soviet analysis of Soviet economic statistics finds little outright lying (at least, post-Stalin). The consistency problems were too big for that to work. One false number has implications for others, & you end up with having to invent an entire imaginary economy, or the inconsistencies are obvious.

Agricultural production figures were inflated for prestige reasons by methods such as publishing pre-harvest standing crop estimates, & keeping quiet about the (lower) harvested crop - but the latter was used internally, & used in calculating the published national income figures. Anything that involved counting discrete objects (e.g. cars) was accurate, but maybe they didn't publish the number of new cars built, just the number of cars sold, 'forgetting' to label it as all car sales including second hand. And so on.

The Soviet authorities tried hard to collect accurate statistics, & kept excellent records. Goskomstat quietly produced its own internal economic estimates (not used by the Politburo) to Western standards, & by the early 1980s was leaking some of them to people who'd publish them, such as the Hungarian state statistical office, which pretended at the time that they were its own estimates, but later came clean. Subsequent analysis suggests they were the best estimates produced at the time. They showed GDP at US prices as a bit lower than the CIA thought, BTW.

Probably the biggest problem with Soviet production statistics was that given the somewhat arbitrarily set prices, values were hard to estimate.

 

[gf0012-aust]

/Back on topic.

I 'll continue my agrarian naval gazing, penant swapping analogy offline

 

[colay]

Say what you will about Loren Thompson and his industry affiliations but his analysis draws heavily on actual reports emanating from the JPO and various official representatives of partner countries and mainstream aviation industry sources.
Nothing will silence the critics completely though until the next big program comes along to get their attention.

Pentagon's Best-Kept Secret: F-35 Fighter Is Progressing Nicely - Forbes
Pentagon's Best-Kept Secret: F-35 Fighter Is Progressing Nicely

If you pay any attention to media coverage of the F-35 fighter program, then you know the Pentagon’s biggest weapons program is “troubled” (to use the favored adjective of reporters). Flight tests are lagging, costs are skyrocketing, and overseas partners are beginning to get cold feet. So the Joint Strike Fighter, as it used to be called, is looking like another black eye for the Pentagon’s fouled up acquisition system, right?

Wrong. The reality is that for the third straight year flight tests are ahead of schedule, the cost to build each plane is falling fast, and international partners are so enthused that new customers are getting in line for the F-35 on a regular basis (South Korea will be next). So how come you don’t know any of this? The reason you don’t know it is that political appointees have decided they can score points with Congress by attacking their own program, and national media always lead with the most sensational information.
. . . .
All of which proves that you can’t believe everything you read in the newspaper (assuming you still read one). Despite the persistent negativism of F-35 coverage in the national media, the program is progressing steadily. That’s a good thing because none of the U.S. military services and overseas allies participating in the program has a backup plan for maintaining air dominance if it falters. For all the hand-wringing and delays, the F-35 fighter is gradually becoming an American success story. It would be nice to hear somebody in the Pentagon actually say that.

 

[the road runner]

That article was a refreshing read.Funny how no one talks about the alternative,and cost it will be to continue to fly 4th generation fighters compared to JSF.Get ready for the clown club propaganda to kick in.

Great find Colay

 

[Air Force Brat]

LockMart strike, Norway first order!

The strike against LockMart rolled into its ninth week this week and it is a shame, just as people are beginning to have some of their faith in this JSF project restored, and many of the early glitches are being resolved, the timing is poor. This has cut the rate back to 50%, at a time when things are starting to roll. I really wish people would realize how much we all have at stake in this aircraft and its developement, it will be expensive enough, its time to produce, not parley. On a high note the Norwegian MoD has authorized purchase of its first two Lightnings to be based at the school house. Lets get this show on the road folks, lots of us are depending on you.

 

[SpudmanWP]

They do know what is at stake, which is why they went on strike. They are trying to put LM over a barrel and force unreasonable concessions out of them.

 

[Air Force Brat]

They do know what is at stake, which is why they went on strike. They are trying to put LM over a barrel and force unreasonable concessions out of them.

I believe you hit the nail on the head Spudman, this kind of Monkey business hurts everyone from the bottom up, and will likely cause tolerances to open up, resulting in fitment issues, and further repairs down the line. I just find in rather unpatriotic.

 

[Volkodav]

I believe you hit the nail on the head Spudman, this kind of Monkey business hurts everyone from the bottom up, and will likely cause tolerances to open up, resulting in fitment issues, and further repairs down the line. I just find in rather unpatriotic.

Just an observation, what makes a tax paying worker / technician unpatriotic for wanting more money / better conditions / fairer deal, especially when the executive are on obscene salaries are are being seen to be ripping off the tax payer through poor project management etc?

 

[jack412]

lets not get into politics, someone will say that the land of the free give a lot of people the freedom to live under a bridge and all hell will break loose

@spud, have you found anymore on the multimissile launch detection ?

 

[GeorgeCarlinFan]

the f-35 is over budget and delayed, the pak fa is the best option, but will not sell in great numbers because of the number of people who refuse to beleive the war is over, like the japanese soldier on that island.

having said that i am not a military expert as i work in the armed robbery business

 

[ADMk2]

the f-35 is over budget and delayed, the pak fa is the best option, but will not sell in great numbers because of the number of people who refuse to beleive the war is over, like the japanese soldier on that island.

having said that i am not a military expert as i work in the armed robbery business

The best option for what? War? What war? Try to be a tad clearer in your posts eh?

FYI, the F-15, F-16, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, F-22, Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen were all over budget and delayed too.

Should all these be junked and the PAK FA chosen?

 

[swerve]

They do know what is at stake, which is why they went on strike. They are trying to put LM over a barrel and force unreasonable concessions out of them.

Unlike the directors & senior executives, who are content with merely massive pay rises, enormous pensions, total coverage of all medical expenses, etc. The CEO was paid barely more than $19 million in 2010, & only $127.5 mn over 5 years.. And LM's financial results were a massive 3% better than the industry average, which surely justifies him being paid only twice the industry average.

Top people should be well paid - but that has to be linked to results, & counted as a cost, just as pay of those lower down is. You can't expect contented workers when those at the top reward themselves lavishly, without regard to company performance.

 

[Air Force Brat]

lets not get into politics, someone will say that the land of the free give a lot of people the freedom to live under a bridge and all hell will break loose

@spud, have you found anymore on the multimissile launch detection ?

I agree Jack and I didn't intend to start something, its just very discouraging when I see good progress being made on an aircraft that so many of us are depending on to see someone try profit on a job half/done. I am quite sure that many of us would agree that LockMart employees are more than well compensated at all levels. I seem to remember LockMart as our family aeroplane company with craftsmen who worked hard to keep the free world free.

 

[SpudmanWP]

@Jack412: It looks like NG jumped the gun in posting that video. Unfortunately nobody has come forward with a cached copy.

@Swerve: Do you ever think that the CEO's (just like anyone else's) salary should be tied to performance? Who knows how they calculated his salary considering the size of the company, stock options, etc. Even if they paid him the average, that only comes out to $67 per LM employee.

The facts remain that the White House, through the DoD, is putting massive pressure on LM to reduce costs. They specifically state labor costs as being too high. In the latest LRIP negotiations the DoD wants an 18% reduction in price and that is without any increase in orders.

What is being asked of the union and its members is no different than what is being asked of most people in America , switch from a pension style retirement package to a 401k. What makes the union's behavior worse is that it would only affect new hires, existing employees would still get their classic pension, a 3-year / 3% raise, and a $3000 bonus.

Sorry to go on a mini-rant like that but I come from a union home and I live in SoCal where we are going broke while paying off all the GEUs (Government Employee Unions).

There are so many examples of abuse here: Retire at 55 @100%; work for 5-10 years and get free lifetime medical for you AND your family; we have to pay tax money to the state's retirement system because of the stock market issues; recent tax increases to pay pensions; etc.

 

[GeorgeCarlinFan]

The best option for what? War? What war? Try to be a tad clearer in your posts eh?

FYI, the F-15, F-16, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, F-22, Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen were all over budget and delayed too.

Should all these be junked and the PAK FA chosen?

no but the examples you have cited were not the biggest defence project ever in terms of size and international collaboration. If you had the combined expertise of the USA UK AUS italy canada israel etc etc. you could at least expect them to deliver it on time.

Also your citations are all western, your argument would be more convincing if you could include a russian example(s) as i am talking about a russian plane. Business works differently in the former soviet union.

 

[SpudmanWP]

The problems with including any type of non-western aircraft are several fold:

1. You will never get an honest answer out of them on cost or schedule.
2. Western planes have a higher inherent development risk in their designs as they are pushing the boundaries of technology.

 

[Air Force Brat]

@Jack412: It looks like NG jumped the gun in posting that video. Unfortunately nobody has come forward with a cached copy.

@Swerve: Do you ever think that the CEO's (just like anyone else's) salary should be tied to performance? Who knows how they calculated his salary considering the size of the company, stock options, etc. Even if they paid him the average, that only comes out to $67 per LM employee.

The facts remain that the White House, through the DoD, is putting massive pressure on LM to reduce costs. They specifically state labor costs as being too high. In the latest LRIP negotiations the DoD wants an 18% reduction in price and that is without any increase in orders.

What is being asked of the union and its members is no different than what is being asked of most people in America , switch from a pension style retirement package to a 401k. What makes the union's behavior worse is that it would only affect new hires, existing employees would still get their classic pension, a 3-year / 3% raise, and a $3000 bonus.

Sorry to go on a mini-rant like that but I come from a union home and I live in SoCal where we are going broke while paying off all the GEUs (Government Employee Unions).

There are so many examples of abuse here: Retire at 55 @100%; work for 5-10 years and get free lifetime medical for you AND your family; we have to pay tax money to the state's retirement system because of the stock market issues; recent tax increases to pay pensions; etc.

Thank you spud for doing a much better job of articulating my point than I could. I'm just discouraged that the people who will build and benefit from the F-35, don't seem to want to give their fellow citizens who are trusting them enough to pay them to design and build this bird a break, by doing what they agreed to do in the first place. On a different note, will the Eglin school house train on the C-model as well as the A and B, and if so when do we anticipate that they will begin receiving airplanes?

 

[GeorgeCarlinFan]

@Jack412: It looks like NG jumped the gun in posting that video. Unfortunately nobody has come forward with a cached copy.

@Swerve: Do you ever think that the CEO's (just like anyone else's) salary should be tied to performance? Who knows how they calculated his salary considering the size of the company, stock options, etc. Even if they paid him the average, that only comes out to $67 per LM employee.

The facts remain that the White House, through the DoD, is putting massive pressure on LM to reduce costs. They specifically state labor costs as being too high. In the latest LRIP negotiations the DoD wants an 18% reduction in price and that is without any increase in orders.

What is being asked of the union and its members is no different than what is being asked of most people in America , switch from a pension style retirement package to a 401k. What makes the union's behavior worse is that it would only affect new hires, existing employees would still get their classic pension, a 3-year / 3% raise, and a $3000 bonus.

Sorry to go on a mini-rant like that but I come from a union home and I live in SoCal where we are going broke while paying off all the GEUs (Government Employee Unions).

There are so many examples of abuse here: Retire at 55 @100%; work for 5-10 years and get free lifetime medical for you AND your family; we have to pay tax money to the state's retirement system because of the stock market issues; recent tax increases to pay pensions; etc.

if lockheed martin could, it would pay all of it's employees $4 an hour. lockheed martin is a corporation and it exists entirely to make a profit. The ones calling the shots are the ones who stand to benefit from reducing employee pay, conditions etc. Lockheed Martin is better than most corporations though because they employ people in the country that they claim is their home. Nike, Starbucks nescafe and apple all use what is or is similar to slave labour and that is just off the top of my head. You need only visit a supermarket, read the product labels to figure out how much they, the corporations care about (insert country here). Mitt Rommney is right when he said "corporations are people"only thing is most of them live in China.

as an aside should i make my siamese twin a separate account ?