F-35 - International Participation

[ngatimozart]

Poland has submitted a formal request to acquire 32 F-35A aircraft. Also Lockheed Martin CEO Marillyn Hewson has said that if the US bans Turkey from acquiring the F-35, LM can easily sell the Turkish aircraft to other nations. She said that filling the Turkish production slots would be no problem. She also said that the projected lifetime sales potential of the F-35 is 4,000 aircraft at the moment with 3,200 aircraft being on the program of record. LM think that the F-35 has a similar sales potential to the F-16 which has sold about 4,600 units so far.

 

[seaspear]

Did Turkey have plans for the F35B on its future lhd,s ? ,and without such aircraft would the ships be reconfigured like without thermal protection on decking long range radars etc.

 

[John Fedup]

That is Turkey's intention. There was a fire during the construction of their first LHD in April so besides the US actions regarding an export ban on F-35s, this is an addtional delay. At the very least, no F-35s until Erdogan is gone.

Will Turkey Really Get an Aircraft Carrier Armed with F-35s?

 

[ngatimozart]

The US has informed Turkey that it is going to suspend the training of Turkish personnel on the F-35 and that the 42 Turkish personnel involved in F-35 training in the US are to leave the US by 31/7/2019. If the Russian S-400 missile system is delivered prior to 31/7/2019 then the plan will be bought forward. The US has already ceased delivery of F-35 materials and related equipment to Turkey.

Pentagon Chief to Suspend Turkey’s F-35 Pilot Training

 

[hauritz]

Hard to see what the Turks could gain from all this. You would have to wonder just how effective the S-400 would even be against Russian aircraft.

Assuming of course that they see Russia as being the main threat to their security.

 

[John Fedup]

IMO Erdogan's purchase of the S-400 gave an opening to dump Turkey from the F-35 program. This has two advantages, it provides a path to transfer Turkish workshare to new important non partner customers, e.g. Japan, Israel, and removes the concerns about selling this exotic kit to Erdogan, a problem waiting to happen.

 

[StobieWan]

indeed- but what advantage did buying S400 grant *Turkey* ?

 

[John Fedup]

You would have to ask Erdogan. I can't see any advantage for the Turkish military and just as importantly the Turkish aerospace industry. License building S-57 fighters doesn't seem like a great prospect for future growth, just ask India.

 

[south]

US, UK and Israeli F-35’s have trained together. Wonder when the last time these three airforces trained simultaneously.

Three-nation F-35 exercise demonstrates air power interoperability > U.S. Air Forces Central Command > News

One benefit of this aircraft compared to previous types is commonality of data links. A second is that all aircrew will understand the strengths and weaknesses of the platform.

 

[Millennium7]

Hi

I made a video about the Turkish conundrum. Maybe you guys are interested.
I hope I am not too intrusive...

Mod Edit: Embedded link promoting a YouTube channel deleted.
-Preceptor​

 

[ngatimozart]

Turkey has been formally expelled from the F-35 program. The US will spend between US$500 - 600 million in retooling the industrial base reallocating the Turkish work share component. The Turks have had plenty of warning that this would be the consequence of their actions. It's not just the security concerns of the US but of all the other operators of the aircraft. There is also talk of the US imposing sanctions upon Turkey, with Trump dragging his heels on this, but apparently he's been convinced finally to enact the sanctions.

 

[walter]

Hi everyone,long time ago

Meanwhile over here in The Netherlands;

Sorry,used Google:

The Netherlands purchases eight or nine extra F-35 fighter jets

July 18, 2019 7:24 AM Last update: one hour ago

The Netherlands is purchasing eight or nine extra F35 fighter jets. They come on top of the 37 combat aircraft that the previous cabinet had already decided on, confirms Defense Minister Ank Bijleveld in an interview with Trouw.

"And in the next cabinet, the defense budget will have to rise again. We are also obliged to do that within NATO," explains Bijleveld.

"Within NATO we are still dangling in terms of spending. So we will have to take extra steps. Next year we will have to recalibrate the defense bill. That should be ready around the spring 2020 memorandum," the minister said.

At the end of last year, she announced that the government would like to purchase around 15 F-35s on top of the 37 as part of five priorities: expanding fire power on land and at sea, strengthening special forces and cyber capacity.

According to Bijleveld, the exact number of F-35 aircraft that will be purchased depends on the exchange rate of the dollar at the time of purchase. They are paid out of the 1.5 billion euros that the Cabinet set aside extra for the armed forces.
Announcement coincides with Rutte's visit to Witte Huis

The Netherlands initially wanted to stick to 37 F-35s, which amounts to two so-called squadrons. But to meet the wishes of the United States, NATO urged the Netherlands to purchase a third squadron. The number of 37 would also have meant that only four aircraft would be available for missions abroad.

Bijleveld reports that it will be eight or nine extra aircraft in the interview with Trouw on the day that Prime Minister Mark Rutte visits the American president Donald Trump. Defense and security are another topic for discussion on Thursday afternoon, just like international trade.

In the NATO plan for increasing defense spending, the Netherlands also promised to purchase missiles for naval vessels and to purchase more tanks and artillery for the army. No money has yet been reserved for this.

So,the total,for now(there are plans to go to about 55)will be 45/46.



Nederland schaft acht of negen extra F-35-straaljagers aan | NU - Het laatste nieuws het eerst op NU.nl

 

[Redlands18]

Hi everyone,long time ago

Meanwhile over here in The Netherlands;

Sorry,used Google:

The Netherlands purchases eight or nine extra F-35 fighter jets

July 18, 2019 7:24 AM Last update: one hour ago

The Netherlands is purchasing eight or nine extra F35 fighter jets. They come on top of the 37 combat aircraft that the previous cabinet had already decided on, confirms Defense Minister Ank Bijleveld in an interview with Trouw.

"And in the next cabinet, the defense budget will have to rise again. We are also obliged to do that within NATO," explains Bijleveld.

"Within NATO we are still dangling in terms of spending. So we will have to take extra steps. Next year we will have to recalibrate the defense bill. That should be ready around the spring 2020 memorandum," the minister said.

At the end of last year, she announced that the government would like to purchase around 15 F-35s on top of the 37 as part of five priorities: expanding fire power on land and at sea, strengthening special forces and cyber capacity.

According to Bijleveld, the exact number of F-35 aircraft that will be purchased depends on the exchange rate of the dollar at the time of purchase. They are paid out of the 1.5 billion euros that the Cabinet set aside extra for the armed forces.
Announcement coincides with Rutte's visit to Witte Huis

The Netherlands initially wanted to stick to 37 F-35s, which amounts to two so-called squadrons. But to meet the wishes of the United States, NATO urged the Netherlands to purchase a third squadron. The number of 37 would also have meant that only four aircraft would be available for missions abroad.

Bijleveld reports that it will be eight or nine extra aircraft in the interview with Trouw on the day that Prime Minister Mark Rutte visits the American president Donald Trump. Defense and security are another topic for discussion on Thursday afternoon, just like international trade.

In the NATO plan for increasing defense spending, the Netherlands also promised to purchase missiles for naval vessels and to purchase more tanks and artillery for the army. No money has yet been reserved for this.

So,the total,for now(there are plans to go to about 55)will be 45/46.



Nederland schaft acht of negen extra F-35-straaljagers aan | NU - Het laatste nieuws het eerst op NU.nl

Thanks Walter, always good to hear from somewhere we don’t here about much on here.

 

[King Wally]

Turkey has been formally expelled from the F-35 program. The US will spend between US$500 - 600 million in retooling the industrial base reallocating the Turkish work share component. The Turks have had plenty of warning that this would be the consequence of their actions. It's not just the security concerns of the US but of all the other operators of the aircraft. There is also talk of the US imposing sanctions upon Turkey, with Trump dragging his heels on this, but apparently he's been convinced finally to enact the sanctions.

I wonder if another country may be able to take Turkey's production slots and "Fast-track" delivery of a number of jets? Would someone like Japan or South Korea be inclined to speed things up? Perhaps they could receive some of Turkeys workshare in return?

 

[John Fedup]

That is likely and no doubt LM will try to enhance its bid for Canada’s fighter replacement with promises of increased workshare.

 

[OPSSG]

That is likely and no doubt LM will try to enhance its bid for Canada’s fighter replacement with promises of increased workshare.

EDIT: At this stage, increased work share for Japan, Korea (F-35A ordered to date is 40, with a likely follow on of 20) and Israel is far more important for the JSF program, from my perspective. Key Israeli suppliers to Lockheed Martin include Elbit Systems, which together with Rockwell Collins expanded their production contract for sensor-fuzed helmets; and Israel Aerospace Industries, which has contracts for wing sets. Two other Elbit subsidiaries – Cyclone and Tadiran – also supply structural components and radio amplifiers respectively. BTW, the number of jets Japan has bought (F-35 aircraft ordered to date is 147) and will buy, dwarf Canadian plans for procuring 88 aircraft, as part of the program of record, that remains unfulfilled.

If Canada reduces its F-35 buy program, IMHO it will be a good opportunity to change current work share arrangements to a more solid footing.

The security dynamics of NE Asia will ensure that both Korea and Japan will buy much more than their current orders. Korean and Japanese F-4s are long in the tooth and will need to be retired in the 2030s.

 

[ngatimozart]

That is likely and no doubt LM will try to enhance its bid for Canada’s fighter replacement with promises of increased workshare.

Nope, if anything Canada should be told that if it doesn't acquire the F-135 it loses it's work share, full stop. Why should it have work share and not acquire when it agreed to and other nations who acquired have missed out? No bloody way. Time for the Canucks to learn a lesson in realpolitik.

 

[John Fedup]

The time to have told junior about losing workshare was during the last election campaign when the threat of removing Canadian content might have helped the stupid MF from getting elected in the first place! The prospects for an F-35 acquisition seem positive now given the progress the program has made and the vastly improved pricing so threats of removing workshare at this point doesn’t make sense for LM. Should their bid be unsuccessful, then cancellation the next day on all JSF work should be made.

@OPSSG The proposed jet number was increased to 88 from 65 by junior. This happened when the SH was his favourite choice and the increased number was ok with him as it allowed him to hype the SH because it’s cheaper price allowed more to be acquired. He likely wishes he hadn’t increased the number now.

 

[OPSSG]

Update: Israel has requested to take the 2 F-35A aircraft (from Turkey) and Netherlands has also offered to pick up the slack.

The time to have told junior about losing workshare was during the last election campaign when the threat of removing Canadian content might have helped the stupid MF from getting elected in the first place! The prospects for an F-35 acquisition seem positive now....

@OPSSG The proposed jet number was increased to 88 from 65 by junior. This happened when the SH was his favourite choice and the increased number was ok with him as it allowed him to hype the SH because it’s cheaper price allowed more to be acquired. He likely wishes he hadn’t increased the number now.

Thanks for the correction. Edited the prior post to 88 aircraft.

 

[OPSSG]

With 341 production aircraft in backlog as of Jun 30, 2019, and considering the aforementioned inventory of the U.S. government, it is expected that the F-35 program will consistently act as a key catalyst for Lockheed Martin’s growth in sales. In August 2019, Lockheed Martin recently secured a contract for procurement of modification kits and special tooling to support modification and retrofit of delivered F-35s. This US$32.1 million deal was awarded by the Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Maryland. An update on the F-35 Program in Aug 2019

• 420+ aircraft delivered, 850+ pilots trained
• 8 nations are operating the F-35 on home soil in 19 bases
• 7 services declared IOC and 4 services have conducted combat operations with the F-35A and F-35B