F-35 - International Participation

[DaveS124]

When will they be acquired.

So far the reports suggest in-servce from mid-20s, but we won't known until the policy paper is released within the next few weeks.

How many.

Have seen a Tokyo report that new F-35 order of 100 could be for 60 As and 40 Bs, but, again, we have to wait for the policy paper.

How long will it take to have an operational capability.

My guess? From about 2025.

What modifications will need to be done to the Izumo Class

Ski-jump, JPALS (or GLIS plus azimuth combo if former not yet mature), ALIS, thermal non-skid on two spots. They'd be the big ticket items. Worth noting that the B refit for CAVOUR is 74 million euros, but they don't have to fit a ski-jump.

What about the Hyuga class

Nope.

What will the neighbours think.

Beijing has already told Tokyo they "must not" do this. Months ago. Suck it up, I say.......

Will South Korea follow with their two ( Almost ) Dokdu Class.

Seoul government said a few months ago they were looking at it, but no news since. Informed opinion elsewhre has it that it might be do-able, but deck evolutions would, by necessity, be very, very tight.

Will this help drop the price of the F35B?

A very good question which I have no possible answer!

Will the F35B club get bigger - Now US Marines, Uk ,Italy, Japan.

Singapore's possibility, too, although their defence people are, as per usual, in full delphic silence about all this,.

Oh yes..... don't forget Turkey, which is splitting it former all-A order to an A/B mix, with the latter to embark in their Juan Carlos I LHD ANADOLU, seen in the attached pic being built at the Sedef-Navantia yard in Istanbul. Due for launch next year. Severa, credible reports from Turkey state that no matter the LHD tasking - amphibious, sea control, ASW, et al - there will be at least six Bs in the ship. Five ranged aft on the roof, one downstairs for TLC. reports earlier this year state that a second LHD is very likely, as they want one to be available at all times.[/QUOTE]

 

[Redlands18]

So far the reports suggest in-servce from mid-20s, but we won't known until the policy paper is released within the next few weeks.

Have seen a Tokyo report that new F-35 order of 100 could be for 60 As and 40 Bs, but, again, we have to wait for the policy paper.

My guess? From about 2025.

Ski-jump, JPALS (or GLIS plus azimuth combo if former not yet mature), ALIS, thermal non-skid on two spots. They'd be the big ticket items. Worth noting that the B refit for CAVOUR is 74 million euros, but they don't have to fit a ski-jump.

Nope.

Beijing has already told Tokyo they "must not" do this. Months ago. Suck it up, I say.......

Seoul government said a few months ago they were looking at it, but no news since. Informed opinion elsewhre has it that it might be do-able, but deck evolutions would, by necessity, be very, very tight.

A very good question which I have no possible answer!

Singapore's possibility, too, although their defence people are, as per usual, in full delphic silence about all this,.

Oh yes..... don't forget Turkey, which is splitting it former all-A order to an A/B mix, with the latter to embark in their Juan Carlos I LHD ANADOLU, seen in the attached pic being built at the Sedef-Navantia yard in Istanbul. Due for launch next year. Severa, credible reports from Turkey state that no matter the LHD tasking - amphibious, sea control, ASW, et al - there will be at least six Bs in the ship. Five ranged aft on the roof, one downstairs for TLC. reports earlier this year state that a second LHD is very likely, as they want one to be available at all times.

[/QUOTE]
The F-35B is a significantly bigger Aircraft then the Harrier so your probably going to need a bigger Ship then the typical Harrier Carrier of 15-20,000t and maybe that's why the F-35B operators seem to be jumping up a size or 3(UKs case). The Hyuga's and the Dokdo may be to small to be effective F-35B Vessels. Singapore makes a lot of sense as they could disperse their Sqns and use Freeways to operate their Aircraft from.

 

[SpazSinbad]

Don't forget in the far future perhaps the Spanish will be interested to replace their Harriers with F-35Bs. After all they designed (with what was known then) JCI to take F-35Bs. Israel 'has been' interested in the F-35B but today seems NOT interested.

 

[puja121]

Mike (aka TheBaseLeg) has a published article on Singapore's F-5s. He is an expert on the RSAF. He tracks RSAF aircraft not only by tail number (the RSAF has been known to change the tail numbers) and he also tracks them by production number. I would be happy to be corrected by him any day.



Most general news sources have a real problem even understanding the basics of Singapore's defence posture, much less the acquisition history of the RSAF. With regards to the Defense Industry Daily (DID), they not only cite APA misinformation as a source for some of their articles, they also engage in defending junk military science. I have a detailed post in the old F-35 thread, where DID anti-JSF meme was debunked. As stated in the post below, DID has recycled old false information as new, which does no end of good to their credibility. You should have seen that post from a week ago (see below).



DID cite APA, whose work would not survive peer review, unless peer review means: Kopp writes a piece, submits it to Goon and Goon approves. DID sources are debunked.

Note the post quoted below with regard to the junk science that is Pacific Vision. There is just so much 'fail' in DID and APA articles. For a laugh, here's a link to APA submissions to the Australian House of Representatives.



Edit: fretburner, you should try reading the threads you post in. [/grins]

your news is really good.

 

[ngatimozart]

your news is really good.

G'day @puja121 Welcome to the forum. We look forward to your participation. Can you please take the time to read the rules.

 

[Stampede]

So far the reports suggest in-servce from mid-20s, but we won't known until the policy paper is released within the next few weeks.

Have seen a Tokyo report that new F-35 order of 100 could be for 60 As and 40 Bs, but, again, we have to wait for the policy paper.

My guess? From about 2025.

Ski-jump, JPALS (or GLIS plus azimuth combo if former not yet mature), ALIS, thermal non-skid on two spots. They'd be the big ticket items. Worth noting that the B refit for CAVOUR is 74 million euros, but they don't have to fit a ski-jump.

Nope.

Beijing has already told Tokyo they "must not" do this. Months ago. Suck it up, I say.......

Seoul government said a few months ago they were looking at it, but no news since. Informed opinion elsewhre has it that it might be do-able, but deck evolutions would, by necessity, be very, very tight.

A very good question which I have no possible answer!

Singapore's possibility, too, although their defence people are, as per usual, in full delphic silence about all this,.

Oh yes..... don't forget Turkey, which is splitting it former all-A order to an A/B mix, with the latter to embark in their Juan Carlos I LHD ANADOLU, seen in the attached pic being built at the Sedef-Navantia yard in Istanbul. Due for launch next year. Severa, credible reports from Turkey state that no matter the LHD tasking - amphibious, sea control, ASW, et al - there will be at least six Bs in the ship. Five ranged aft on the roof, one downstairs for TLC. reports earlier this year state that a second LHD is very likely, as they want one to be available at all times.

[/QUOTE]

So far the reports suggest in-servce from mid-20s, but we won't known until the policy paper is released within the next few weeks.

Have seen a Tokyo report that new F-35 order of 100 could be for 60 As and 40 Bs, but, again, we have to wait for the policy paper.

My guess? From about 2025.

Ski-jump, JPALS (or GLIS plus azimuth combo if former not yet mature), ALIS, thermal non-skid on two spots. They'd be the big ticket items. Worth noting that the B refit for CAVOUR is 74 million euros, but they don't have to fit a ski-jump.

Nope.

Beijing has already told Tokyo they "must not" do this. Months ago. Suck it up, I say.......

Seoul government said a few months ago they were looking at it, but no news since. Informed opinion elsewhre has it that it might be do-able, but deck evolutions would, by necessity, be very, very tight.

A very good question which I have no possible answer!

Singapore's possibility, too, although their defence people are, as per usual, in full delphic silence about all this,.

Oh yes..... don't forget Turkey, which is splitting it former all-A order to an A/B mix, with the latter to embark in their Juan Carlos I LHD ANADOLU, seen in the attached pic being built at the Sedef-Navantia yard in Istanbul. Due for launch next year. Severa, credible reports from Turkey state that no matter the LHD tasking - amphibious, sea control, ASW, et al - there will be at least six Bs in the ship. Five ranged aft on the roof, one downstairs for TLC. reports earlier this year state that a second LHD is very likely, as they want one to be available at all times.

[/QUOTE]


Thanks for the detailed reply.

Singapore F35B could have traction
CAVOUR - 74 Million Euros well spent
Japan - very very Interesting.
Turkey - Test bed of viability for the Juan Carlos 1 Club.
Turkey second ship......have not read but would make sense.
Beijing-...losing friends but buying influence................unsettling.

Regards S

 

[Stampede]

Don't forget in the far future perhaps the Spanish will be interested to replace their Harriers with F-35Bs. After all they designed (with what was known then) JCI to take F-35Bs. Israel 'has been' interested in the F-35B but today seems NOT interested.

Spain is interesting.
If they where cashed up I no doubt they would of got in early with the F35 B.
I wonder if Spain will look at some 2nd hand US marine Harriers as they become surplus to inventory as the F35B enters US service.

Regards S

 

[Stampede]

The F-35B is a significantly bigger Aircraft then the Harrier so your probably going to need a bigger Ship then the typical Harrier Carrier of 15-20,000t and maybe that's why the F-35B operators seem to be jumping up a size or 3(UKs case). The Hyuga's and the Dokdo may be to small to be effective F-35B Vessels. Singapore makes a lot of sense as they could disperse their Sqns and use Freeways to operate their Aircraft from.[/QUOTE]


True bigger has its benefits.
The F35B is certainly much heavier than the old Harrier but its foot print is not that dramaticly differant. About a metre longer and wider
The Beam of the USS Wasp LHD is about the same as the Canberra Class with the later's lift arrangement being the noticeable difference, along with the ski jump.
Both ships are bigger than the Invincible class and have a larger and better designed hangar.
Agree with you that Singapore could be a potential user.

Regards S .

 

[Redlands18]

I also believe we will eventually get the B's, I just firmly believe, in my opinion, that it will not come at the expense of the Canberra's.

If we move down that route, it would, and should be a dedicated platform fully fit for purpose, possibly with the Canberra's as back up/gap fill during maintenance periods etc.

AIR 600 2C could be a possibility for 28, and IIRC, there is another option post 2C for potentially another 50 airframes I think ?

I guess what I am trying to say is this "discussion" has already been going on for a decade, and most likely will be another decade before we get any closer, what is happening around our region, Japan, South Korea, maybe Singapore etc looking and getting B's, eventually we will become part of the club

Cheers

One interesting one is Italy is supposedly not fitting a Ski Ramp to its new LHD(Trieste?)

 

[t68]

Spain is interesting.
If they where cashed up I no doubt they would of got in early with the F35 B.
I wonder if Spain will look at some 2nd hand US marine Harriers as they become surplus to inventory as the F35B enters US service.

Regards S

IfvSpain were cashed up when Príncipe de Asturias was withdrawn they were originally going to build another carrier, the purpose of JC1 was to keep the concurrent training up whilst the replacement carrier was in extendard maintenance, JC1 was never intended to be the main focus for fixed wing maritime aviation it just ended up that way due to funding.

I have seen rendering of the new carrier and looks like a mini me to JC1 just minus a couple of decks

 

[SpazSinbad]

JCI has four functions IIRC - stated in their brochure - one of which is 'aviation centric'.

"...AIRCRAFT CARRIER: A temporary platform for carrier-based naval aircraft, acting as a flight deck for strategic projection airborne vectors (Navy’s Air Wing), capable of becoming a temporary platform to substitute the aircraft-carrier, “PRINCIPE DE ASTURIAS”, when she is not available due to downtime (repairs, modifications, etc.)...." https://www.navantia.es/ckfinder/userfiles/files/sala_pr/folleto LHD_marzo_para navantia_ingles.pdf [no longer - can provide PDF if required]

"...The four mission types to which the different basic configurations respond are described below....
...The Juan Carlos I it is also designed to participate in integrated projection actions within the fleet, complementing or substituting the aircraft carrier, Príncipe de Asturias, during planned downtime. On these occasions the BPE's aviation capability and facilities will be used to maximum in order to act as command ship.... http://www.buquesdeguerra.es/buques/anfibios/lhd-juan-carlos-i [another dud URL so PDF if required]

Mission Profile
• Depending on the mission assigned, the ship will be configured accordingly.
• The main configurations are:
◦ Amphibious operations.
◦ Combined deployment with the Army.
◦ Fleet projection (alternative aircraft-carrier)
◦ Humanitarian aid operations.
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPort...icie/03_Buques_anfibios--03_lhd-juan-carlos-i

 

[DaveS124]

Turkey second ship......have not read but would make sense.

The name the second Turkish LHD was announced a few months ago. She's to commission as TRAKYA.

Fun video by the Turkish regarding the LHD/F-35B combo in amphibious ops.

The Spanish navy's air branch chief gave a long interview earlier this year, where he said their requirement was for 20-30 F-35Bs, with 60-80 F-35As for the air force. The navy would also like a second LHD. The government has put a hold on all new projects - this is government-wide, not just the military - until 2025. However, if the government demands that the air force "buy European" and replace their Hornets with Typhoons instead of F-35As, then any plans to buy Bs will founder. So, we can only wait until '25 and see how it pans out.

 

[SpazSinbad]

Why is this argey-bargey about LHDs/F-35Bs not knocked to the appropriate thread? I was banned for just answering a question from someone else (not realizing there is a specific LHD/F-35B for Oz thread at the time - but as the sign says 'Ignorance is no excuse'). <sigh> And I would agree with my general knowledge garnered from 'those in the know' that there are minimal changes required internally but it will always depend on what those changes may be and for what purpose etc. As mentioned by the Wigs of Big in a Senate hearing 'off the top of their heads' when Abbott was PM the LHDs require better radar/landing aids/deck treatments - all doable of course. While the overall cost seems to be always inflated with the cost of the F-35Bs and their lifetime support. BUT I am typing too much and I'll have to STOP!

 

[ngatimozart]

Why is this argey-bargey about LHDs/F-35Bs not knocked to the appropriate thread? I was banned for just answering a question from someone else (not realizing there is a specific LHD/F-35B for Oz thread at the time - but as the sign says 'Ignorance is no excuse'). <sigh> And I would agree with my general knowledge garnered from 'those in the know' that there are minimal changes required internally but it will always depend on what those changes may be and for what purpose etc. As mentioned by the Wigs of Big in a Senate hearing 'off the top of their heads' when Abbott was PM the LHDs require better radar/landing aids/deck treatments - all doable of course. While the overall cost seems to be always inflated with the cost of the F-35Bs and their lifetime support. BUT I am typing too much and I'll have to STOP!

Well spotted and BZ Spaz and so to all posters, especially Aussies, RAN related posts back to the RAN thread or the Mods will get extra cranky.

 

[SpazSinbad]

Japan confirms F-35Bs for Izumo ships [05 Dec 2018]

 

[ngatimozart]

Japan confirms F-35Bs for Izumo ships [05 Dec 2018]

Makes sense. They can also operate them off offshore islands and other localities using austere facilities.

 

[t68]

Japan confirms F-35Bs for Izumo ships [05 Dec 2018]

Will be interesting to see what China has to say as they have already opposed the intail statement regarding Japans intention

 

[ngatimozart]

Will be interesting to see what China has to say as they have already opposed the intail statement regarding Japans intention

Spleen venting I reckon with heaps of self righteous indignation and that's just the opening stanza.

 

[Stampede]

Spleen venting I reckon with heaps of self righteous indignation and that's just the opening stanza.

The PLAN are building some LHD's
Maybe they could acquire some F35B's as well


S

 

[Millennium7]

Don't forget in the far future perhaps the Spanish will be interested to replace their Harriers with F-35Bs. After all they designed (with what was known then) JCI to take F-35Bs. Israel 'has been' interested in the F-35B but today seems NOT interested.

in principle, every country in the world with V/STOL light carriers have no alternative to the F-35B, at this point in time.