F-16s no threat to IAF: Air Marshal Bhavnani

[xeron]

Yeah NATO uses F-16 but that is a matter of policy influenced by the cold war days and more or less being american allies procuring F -16 is much easier, as for the cobra maneuver, i think it is most effective when in close chases in aerial dog fights, and so the primary motive is to get the chasing jet by surprise and the sukhoi is pretty good at this. Therefore the comments that any other jet can take a shot at a suspended sukhoi are plainly argumentative.
also can anyone tell me the total number of aircrafts that the PAF possesses and how many of what type, can somebody tell me that about the IAF also. So when we do have that we can be quite conclusive as to who has how much of a chance when pitted against their very best and in force (and in number).

 

[xeron]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1216719/posts

India, Israel to hold joint air exercise in ’05
www.expressindia.com ^ | 14-9-2004


Posted on 09/15/2004 8:20:23 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki


NEW DELHI, SEPTEMBER 13: The defence relationship between New Delhi and Tel Aviv has deepened further with India and Israel agreeing in principle to hold joint air exercises involving US-made F-16s and Russian-built Su-30 MKI fighters.

While the modalities of the first ever Indian Air Force and Israeli Air Force exercise will be decided by the executive steering group under the bilateral Defence Cooperation Group, Air Chief S. Krishnaswamy discussed the issue with his Israeli counterpart during his visit to Tel Aviv last week.

The IAF chief interacted with Israeli Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz and Israel’s military top brass during his week-long trip. He also also flew a one-hour sortie on a twin-seater F-16 I fighter piloted by Major Jonathan from Ramon air base, south of Tel Aviv last Wednesday.

Sources said both sides were keen on pushing interaction between the two air forces and were all for exchanging operational tactics with each other. The joint exercise will be slated for 2005 after IAF Sukhoi-30 MKIs have done their tour of France.

Though Israel is smaller than Kerala in geographical area, its air force is one-and-a-half times more potent than the Indian Air Force. While IAF has a force level of 36.5 fighter squadrons, the Israelis have more than 30 fighter squadrons including 349 F-16s, 79 F-15s and 140 Kfir fighters.

Apart from undertaking joint exercises, New Delhi is also looking at Tel Aviv for help and hardware for its indigenous AWACS project. The AWACS project with the initial sanction of Rs 1,800 crore was cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) last week. A Defence Ministry official said critical equipment on board the indigenous AWACS will be an ‘‘off-shoot of the India-Israel PHALCON AWACS’’ deal. Israeli defence contractors will be involved in helping the Indian project in critical areas.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So that reported why don't we wait for the israelis and indians to fight out in the air and then compare stats and figures rather than sit here and speculate with patriotism being the primary driving force.

 

[adsH]

again and again i have to remind people that the people who fly F-16 the weapons they use the training they employ with the doctrine that they employ happens to be different, there EW system are different, there weapons suites are different. the radar systems are different, everything is different about the israelis when compared to the Pakistani's there is no way you can directly map the learnt wisdom over PAF. they are two totally different air-forces, in different situations, Even thou there elite have been educated in the same schools out in the US but they all have chosen to take up dissimilar paths.

 

[XEROX]

Xerox, the exercise between the IAF and the Israelis would be extremely useful, but afraid its not happening, Air Chief S. Krishnaswamy did float the idea of a joint exercise, however the establishment where not so keen :cry

And is it the MKIs going to France, i didnt know it was those??

 

[adsH]

Israeli's would never end up using there F-16i in such exercises they will never let anyone see whats on those F-16, its there way they never sell what they use for there defense, its there way, USAF doesn't even know what the Israelis do to there F-16 after they getem.

 

[srirangan]

Same can be said about the IAF not using the premier Su30's. Remember the Su-30 MK1's took part with the USAF, not the Su-30 MKI's.

 

[Timmy]

Indians not having combat experience, the Pakistani super pilot only knowing his job, dodging a BVR is a simple matter of a chaff/flare dispenser. the Su-30 is so heavy it does not fly, war is a duck shoot. With all but one of our wars with pakistan, Indian forces have done their share of fighting.The forces have had their share of losses,men killed, mistakes made , air craft lost but the fight went on , what happened in the wars is known to all of us.
With notions like these i wonder who is living is in wonderland.If myths and mis-placed emotions alone could win wars, the history of Pakistan would be quite different.

BTW Mirages and Mig 29s not fighting! maybe you never heard of Kargil.This might help:
http://www.geocities.com/vayu_sena/videos/Mirage-2000_PGM.mpg

shows IAF Mirage-2000H in action in Kargil.
.

Regarding the quote of insas556 on page 6. posting Mirage-2000's video clips or links isnt gona prove anything! such exercises and missions in the worlds air forces are mundane! so if IAF has carried out this mickey mouse exercise in Kargil, there's no big deal! the fact of the matter is that the IAF lost a Mig-21 and a Mig-23/27 (thankx to the Anza Surface to Air shoulder fired missiles.

regarding the mythns and emotions and the history of PAK...etc looks like uve been reading too much of Shakespear's plays!u worry about ur own country's history. if u still have apprehensions about which country's air force is more renowned, read Chuck Yeagers Biography (hope u know who he is)!

:cop Mod Edit: Offensive comments deleted. Please read the rules about personal attacks on other posters and posting etiquette in general.

1st Warning

 

[Red aRRow]

:cop :cop I won't be tolerating any more BS on this thread. :cop :cop

 

[XEROX]

According to Denil the upgraded MiG 21 has Isreali Sufa Tech

 

[ajay_ijn]

Blackwill questions US' proposed F-16 sale to Pak
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=40587

New Delhi, January 10: Former US Ambassador to India Robert Blackwill on Monday questioned the timing of the proposed US sale of F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan when it had not stopped cross border terrorism.


"Why should Washington transfer these fighters to Pakistan when the country has not stopped sponsoring cross border terrorism?" asked Blackwill, who was speaking at an interactive meeting organised by industry chamber CII in Delhi.

"Such a sale will compromise India's Air power superiority, he said, adding, "The F-16 models that Pakistan is seeking are nuclear-capable models. Could these not be used against India?" "US military sales to Pakistan should be that of a strategic supplier taking into full consideration India's security concerns," he said

The former Ambassador is taking much care of India-US relations.

Another news says that US has not yet talken any decision of selling F-16s to pakistan.
US Congressmen favour defence trade with India
http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=79366

NEW DELHI, JAN 10: A group of visiting US Congressmen on Monday favoured enhancement in defence trade with India even as it said Washington had no intention to cause an imbalance of power between New Delhi and Islamabad through sale of arms like F-16 fighters. Addressing a press conference here, the delegation leader, senator Bill Frist, hailed Pakistan and America’s relations with it but noted Washington’s ties with New Delhi and Islamabad had their own independent standings.

“We need to work together... In the aftermath of tsunami, the militaries of the two countries have been working together,†senator Norm Coleman said.

Pointing out that the two countries have been conducting joint military exercises, he said there should be enhancement of defence cooperation and sale of defence technology to India. “Let us give it a try.â€

On India’s concerns about proposed US sale of F-16 fighters to Pakistan, Mr Frist said the Bush administration had taken no decision in this regard so far.

“The US has no intention to pursue arms sale to imbalance relations between India and Pakistan,†he said.

Mr Frist said America’s relations with Pakistan and India were not “zero sum game†and these stood in their independent right. “The US and Pakistan have long-standing ties,†he said. Describing Pakistan as a “stalwart ally†in the global war against terrorism, frist said Islamabad has taken “active measures†in this war at regional and international levels.

 

[ajay_ijn]

US lawmakers oppose sale of F-16 jets
http://www.dawn.com/2005/01/14/top12.htm

NEW DELHI, Jan 13: Any proposal by the United States government to sell F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan would be met with strong opposition in Congress, two Democratic lawmakers and members of a pro-India lobby group said here on Thursday.

Senator Jon Corzine and Representative Frank Pallone are here to meet with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh as part of a four-nation tour of countries hit by the Dec 26 tsunami.

The two discussed defence issues with Mr Singh such as the Indian navy's cooperation in relief efforts, but not a possible sale of the advanced fighter jets to Pakistan.

"There would be substantial opposition in Congress if the administration proposes the sale of F-16s to Pakistan," Pallone said. "I don't see how the F-16s can be used for anything but offensive purposes. I don't think they'll get it," he added.

Mr Pallone claimed that fighter jets would "most likely be used against India and other countries" and would be inappropriate to sell considering the recent revelations of the sale of nuclear weapons-related materials to other countries by the father of Pakistan's atomic bomb, Dr A. Q. Khan

This is really Surprising,even congress opposed the sale.
Now it is quite Difficult that Pakistan may get F-16.

 

[adsH]

key word TWO Democratic LAEMAKERS
India does not have enough Political leverage over congress
Prsd.Bush supported by Republican Pakistani's have alot more leverage over Congress
if Prsd.Bush decides

 

[SABRE]

The US congress & senet of the current US government has more Republicans then democrates. & almost all the members r loyal to Bush, so if Bush sells F-16s to Pakistan there wont be much opposition & the one that is going to take place will have no effects over the mejority.
PS I think US president doesnt reqire congress's approval for sell of military hardwares to MNNA nations (m I wrong here...some one..highsea !!?)

Anyways roumers r that PAF may get its F-16s by June-July 2005.

 

[hot222]

If F-16s will have comformal tanks and the new helmet that gives them the ability of off-axis engagements, they will be a serious threat.

 

[highsea]

...I think US president doesnt reqire congress's approval for sell of military hardwares to MNNA nations (m I wrong here...some one..highsea !!?)

Anyways roumers r that PAF may get its F-16s by June-July 2005.

Sorry Sabre, I didn't notice this question before. MNNA is more about the types of weapons allowed, not the approval process.

The president may not sell MDE (Major Defense Equipment)/SME (Significant Military Equipment) without obtaining congressional approval. This involves a statement to congress that explains:

1. How the sale affects the balance of power
2. The impact on an arms race
3. The impact on the US Technological Edge
4. And how the sale supports US national interests.

Once congress is notified, they "think" about the sale;

Congress has a 20-Day “Unofficial†notification period, followed by a 30-Day “Official†notification, giving congress a total of 50-Days to approve or disapprove the sale. In order to block the sale, both houses must introduce and pass resolutions against the deal. IIRC, the notice was given on March 25, so figure 50 days from then, and the deal is considered approved.

Opponents do not have anywhere close to the votes needed to pass any resolutions against the deal, especially since it is in line with the 9/11 Comission's recommendations wrt Pakistan, so I wouldn't worry about this story.

 

[SABRE]

its a very old question highsea. Jan17th 2k5. I for got about it my self. Should have PMed you instead.
Anyways no need to say sorry.

 

[kashifshahzad]

India tries to make problems in Pakistan's way so lets see what can the Indian leaders do there is a chance that both the countries might get the F-16's

 

[Ahsan1]

I personally think that it is true, that IAF will have no threat against F-16s, because of superior Flankers.

But however i also think that they will really give a good fight.

Hey isn't Su-30MKIs and F-16s fall in different categories?

 

[rafale_2k5]

I personally think that it is true, that IAF will have no threat against F-16s, because of superior Flankers.

But however i also think that they will really give a good fight.

Hey isn't Su-30MKIs and F-16s fall in different categories?

Yeah ur right F-16 blk50/52 is 4th generation whereas MKI falls in the class of 4.5 generation, but blk50/52 if provided with BVR would give PAF some semblance of BVR capability!!!

 

[Aussie Digger]

This article is ridiculous IMHO. An AMRAAM armed F-16 Block 52+ fighter operated by anyone is a serious threat to ANY other aircraft. The F-16 has proved itself through years of operational conflict. SU-30MKI's are hardly even operational.


A single F-16 armed with appropriate BVR and WVR weapons going head to head with another single SU-30MKI which is equally well armed MAY be slightly inferior, given that everything else besides the 2 individual aircraft is roughly equivalent. Unfortunately reality and experience should tell us that things never quite work out this way.

Tactics, training and support levels are different, weapons and weapons load outs are different, support elements such as AWACS, GCI radar systems and air to air refuelling capabilities are different, range and performance parameters are different and the list goes on.

To state that a world class fighter jet (which has proven itself in many conflicts in vastly different theatres) poses absolutely no threat is political posturing and bravado, or sheer ignorance, nothing more.