F-15 pilot talks about SU-30MKI at Red Flag

[Feanor]

Dear Feanor. Admin: Text Deleted Did you not notice that I wrote a paragraph about India's procurement of Russian equipment and then followed it with a statement 'as to the rest of the world' Admin: Text Deleted

I responded directly to what you wrote. And while roberto may be wrong on multiple counts, he has one thing right. India and Russia are in a long term strategic partnership that includes joint weapon development, multi-faceted technology transfer, and large scale offset projects and licensed production. Now you can say what you want about bureaucrats and army officers, but unless you have hard facts about the procurement process in the Indian military, it's just your opinion. Facts are that India has signed in the last decade, many large scale deals and projects with Russia, from outright purchases, to licensed assembly and joint development projects. If you don't consider that long term military cooperation, or think that Russia won't remain a strategic partner with India in the defense sphere in the forseeable future, then you're wrong.

I would also ask you to keep the discussion civil. I'm not sure what you wrote in the "Admin: Text deleted" areas, but I doubt they deleted kind words of wisdom. I have respect for your knowledge, but the fact that your name is in blue and that you're a defense professional doesn't give you the right to treat others in an uncivil condescending fashion simply because they disagree with you. Argue with facts and serious points or not at all.

Anyhoo we are discussing a CHANGING mindset, no-one is doubting the former inclination on behalf of the Indian forces for Russia equipment, but it is patently obvious in recent years that India has commenced leaning more heavily towards the West for it's acquisitions and technical partners in indigenous programs...

Changing? Yes. absolutely. But not simply in the direction of American hardware. India is doing it's best to multi-source it's equipment as much as possible. For example the MMRCA competition includes aircraft from practically every major export aircraft manufacturer in the world. The reasons for this are many, for example the many problems with certain Russian deliveries, and price hikes that occur from an initial low-balling of the estimated costs, and poor production facilities that can't keep schedules, or costs under control. None the less Russia is far more intimately involved at this point then any of the western competitors, especially in the area of licensed production, indigenization, and more importantly joint development projects. This may change in the coming decade, but at this point the situation is what it is.

 

[Red]

I take the views surfaced by the USAF pilot with a pinch of salt honestly as I do not have all the details. IMHO, I still feel a certain slant for more F-22s understandably.

A part of me wants to feel good seeing as such that these are old F15Cs and and F16Cs without the nice upgrades(EW systems, newer radars, targetting systems, etc) you see in the many airforces around the world such as the Israeli airforce for instance.

But I appreciate the rationale behind the purchase of F18 E/Fs and F-15K/SG by countries like Australia, South Korea and Singapore over more affordable Su-30s. They would want to dominate the battlespace and they can only do so with these jets and the equipment they carry.

AESAs, excellent EW systems, JHMCS, etc will put control of BVR combat in the hands of the F18s and F15s pilots. These systems together with excellent tactics will win the day in WVR combat as well.

At the end of the day, it is not just about simply aircraft frames but the systems they carry, respective tactics and training and external systems they can hook up with like AWACs/AEW & C systems, ground radars, etc.

It is just simply about who has the best system overall.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I would also ask you to keep the discussion civil. I'm not sure what you wrote in the "Admin: Text deleted" areas, but I doubt they deleted kind words of wisdom. I have respect for your knowledge, but the fact that your name is in blue and that you're a defense professional doesn't give you the right to treat others in an uncivil condescending fashion simply because they disagree with you. Argue with facts and serious points or not at all.

I think it was just something like you are 'wasting our time'. The mod. was right to pull it as it could be considering flaming. I hope this isn't considered in the same light I'm just trying to clarify something that seems to be lost in communication.

The point I was trying to make was I wrote a whole paragraph about the India-Russia defence acquisition relationship then another paragraph for "other customers" which was about regimes (Iran, Venezuela, etc.) that other countries wouldn't sell to. Then you responded by saying India wasn't a 'regime' and so on when clearly I had differentiated between them!

Frankly Feanor you should go back and read it again and see the mistake. You're making some good contributions here and I appreciate discussing this with you but I hate being misinterpreted! Though for ALL of us that's a risk we run communicating via message boards like this.

 

[Feanor]

The point I was trying to make was I wrote a whole paragraph about the India-Russia defence acquisition relationship then another paragraph for "other customers" which was about regimes (Iran, Venezuela, etc.) that other countries wouldn't sell to. Then you responded by saying India wasn't a 'regime' and so on when clearly I had differentiated between them!

Ok. Thanks for the clarification. That did seem to make little sense. But as for no other countries being willing to sell to them, I beg to differ. They might not be lining up with US defense contractors, but Venezuela has a number of contracts with Spain, and China. Russia has also recently made a break through to the Saudi market (helicopter deal). Greece (with the BMP-3, Tor M1,) is also hardly an isolated regime with no other options. Russia clearly has much to offer for mid-lower tier customers that are interested in fairly modern hardware, but have to be mindful of the price.

The other issue of course is that there are pieces of Russian weapon technology that are excellent, inexpensive, effective, and while not quite cutting edge, certainly modern. There are others that are old, poor in quality, have manufacturing problems, and are essentially a waste of money. And of course every variation in between. So when looking at Russian weapons export you have to look carefully at what is being exported, to whom, and under what terms.

Frankly Feanor you should go back and read it again and see the mistake. You're making some good contributions here and I appreciate discussing this with you but I hate being misinterpreted! Though for ALL of us that's a risk we run communicating via message boards like this.

Absolutely. I'm happy we can get this cleared up and move forward with the conversation.

To get back on topic, and moving past roberto's comments to the original topic, are there any other Cope India exercises planned?

 

[nevidimka]

As far as India moving to Western/Us system is a bit far stretched I believe. India aspires to be a big power. In that case I doubt they would like to ring up pentagon to ask for permission to use the weapons they have bought for every battle.
What I see happening is, The main war machines, that needs to win the battle and survive the war of attrition will be Russian/Indigenous systems. However, They wouldnt mind shopping for other western, lesser of US systems that complement those war machines, like communications, Intelligence, radars systems. These systems do not suffer the most under embargo.

And you can see from the purchases of the Mki's, Smerch, tanks, warships, etc2 that they are still Russian. If they wanna move away from the Russian backbone to a western system it will not be easy. It will not survive the parliment. It would be a bloodbath.

Which is Why I also feel the SH will not win the MMRCA tender. It would put 100+ fighters at the mercy of US diplomacy.

 

[aayiliam]

Regarding India's dependence on the west i dont think India is going to US but it surely is going to other western countries. I think even in future we will not go complete with russia but not with US too. we might select the vessel from russia but fill it with western and israeli components. or else go to french and german industries and avoid using US equipment. that is why i think in most accquisition by India we hear about Indianisation

 

[gf0012-aust]

Regarding India's dependence on the west

Nobody has said anything about India being dependant on the west - the discussion is about Indias willingness to look further abroad (to the west) to look at other technoogy and platform solutions.

That is a reality here and now - its got nothing to do with perception and opinion.

The main stumbling block in some of these requests is an Indian insistence that they get full ToT - and in some cases thats not going to happen as commercial entities do not want to sacrifice IP even if it is purchased at a fair market price (which it usually is not)

This is a normal commercial situation which will either work out - or not. There's nothing machiavellian in any of it.

 

[Feanor]

This is a normal commercial situation which will either work out - or not. There's nothing machiavellian in any of it.

I disagree. I would label the Indian procurement policy as rather Machiavellian. They're working hard to make the defense companies fight over the contracts.

 

[cobzz]

Made up news anyone?

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/...ID=b7ziAYMenjw=&SectionName=pWehHe7IsSU=&SEO=

Idiots. I'll make sure to ignore Expressbuzz in the future. Read my comments at the bottom.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I disagree. I would label the Indian procurement policy as rather Machiavellian. They're working hard to make the defense companies fight over the contracts.

No, situation normal. Having dealt with Indian companies on other military technology issues, I can assure you that this is how they engage.

They're tough negotiaters... (have gone through the same grief with pakistani's so, I'm guessing it's an inherent DNA issue.... )

 

[Feanor]

No, situation normal. Having dealt with Indian companies on other military technology issues, I can assure you that this is how they engage.

They're tough negotiaters... (have gone through the same grief with pakistani's so, I'm guessing it's an inherent DNA issue.... )

So they're normally Machiavellian! :

 

[aayiliam]

as a indian i can tell u tht we always look for somthing extra and for some discount while purchasing anything. whenever u come into bargaining with Indians u will c that fist thing they ask is "what are u offering along with this"?

regarding earlier msg i think u misunderstood me what i meant to say that is nowadays when we purchase it will be something of a mix and match it will contain technologies from lot of suppliers and get TOT for important parts so that dependence is not felt at later date. And since now this a buyers market we are likely to get away with it. eg: regarding MRCA we are asking for TOT and we are offered the TOT for the latest products

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

deception jamming, as from modern DRFM equipped sets is a pain for any radar set. however, a brand new AESA such as the APG-79/77 should have a suitable number of receivers, including one dedicated for ECCM that should allow relief.
but deception jamming will still reduce the Pk of small battery equipped missiles something fierce, which the USAF colonel, is reasonably accurate about. even HOJ wouldnt necessarily help unlike if it were old fashioned noise jamming.

As Abraham pointed out you need to have a good understanding of the threat system before deception jamming can be effective, and ECCM is one of the fastest advancing area's in AAM development. AIM-120D & meteor are going to be hell to fool with contemporary tech. Additionally deception jamming always has an fundamental flaw, if the missile realizes its being spoofed the EM source will simply make the target more visible.

Also the hideously complicated, rapid and random frequency modulation utilized by LPI AESA radars makes analyzing and the EM signature and returning something to spoof the radar virtually impossible with current tech. The random frequency modulation means unless your transmitting through out the Band you probably wont be on the exact same frequency, and if you broadcasting that loudly ESM gear will geo-locate the source quick smart.

Deception or seduction is the way to defeat active homing BVR but as a technique is heavily reliant on having good intel of the threat. The Israelis are not selling jammers to defeat AMRAAM and unless the Russians can get their hands on an actual seeker will just be working from a theortical base. The same can not be said for ADDER which compromised years (over a decade) ago. Also AESA radars can have PITBULL support modes where they illuminate the target for the actively homing missile at terminal engagement.

AFAIK it takes more than getting your hands on the seeker. The hardware is not the point, its the algorithms that govern the way the missile thinks which determine its ECCM vs deception gear. It takes more than getting your hands on a seeker to figure that out. IIRC one of the primary reasons the Israelis went ahead with Derby was the fact that the US would not release the codes that govern AMRAAM, and i have no doubt they took apart a few seekers trying to figure out what made them tick. They still had to develop their own system. I guess having the missile with software installed is a different kettle of fish to understanding it.

U have to wake Radar is not big deal. It is the large military specification grade aircraft thats what matter.

Is this a joke? Any schlub with a few mil can buy a Boeing 737 or the like, developing a radar capable enough to do the job is literally an order of magnitude more complex and difficult.

 

[Haavarla]

So TVC sucks more than it helps, got that.

so now,

How is the data on PESA on SU-30MKI in the know? i believe IAF have never used the radars in a exercise?

What is IAF doing preparing for Israeli AWACS and with a data link that can not connect with an AWAC? (or is it a data link that can not connect to a US/NATO AWAC?)

Could someone explain the whole FOD thing with jet engines, and to what degree the FOD screens on SU-30s work/help (well apparently not good enough)?

what is that anything with out AESA?

A comon misunderstanding with the FOD here in this case.
I have digged up all i could find on this issue.
I cant't find ANY info that suggest that the AL-31FP is more vulnerable vs western engine.

The FOD screens helps, but only at a certain speed/thrust power.
If you go with full AFT, i would imagine the FOD screens would have to open up fully?

Now this is a wild guess on my account, but is those inlets fan on the
Su-30MKI situated lower to the ground than F-16c and F-15c??
The F-16 have a pretty low inlet fan i think, but with the F-15 i'm not sure..
If so, maybe it could be some thruth in this FOD report..


I think the Indians just wanted to play safe on those Engine, regarding the service situation for the AL-31FP at Red flag.

Think about it, if the Indians have to send those engines back to Russia for replacement or repairs..
I wonder if the Indians brought with them some extra engine on the transporter, or not?

 

[Haavarla]

So TVC sucks more than it helps, got that

.



He did say that the Indians pilot where fairly inexperienced at the Red flag.
He also said don't go there(use the TVC), unless u have to..

I think it's not that black or white with the TVC as you stated here.
You just have to know when to apply the TVC in A2A combat, anyway it all comes down to how skilled the pilots are.

 

[kiranflanker]

Came across this one

hey guys while i was searching about all this stuff about the colonel and his comments i came across this article and i believe its the closest we can ever get in knowing what really happened at Nellis

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/11/livefist-column-vishnu-som-first-hand.html

 

[aayiliam]

Regarding the TVC i dont think so that it sucks. IAF was not much used to TVC and this is one of the first such kind of TVC aircraft in Asia and even the russians dont have the complete mastery over that at the moment as it is very new technology in these parts. As the pilot has said once the Indian pilots learn to use this effectivly then it will become a potent weapon

 

[hellfire]

well i came across this while searching about su 30mki rador in red flag.
in this article the author says the USAF are downplaying the SU30.
http://http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2008/11/a-final-word-from-india-on-you.html

 

[nevidimka]

Interesting. I wonder what is the capability of the BARS radar when run under training mode? Like range, targets tracking no, etc2. Is this info available?

 

[Aussie Digger]

He did say that the Indians pilot where fairly inexperienced at the Red flag.
He also said don't go there(use the TVC), unless u have to..

I think it's not that black or white with the TVC as you stated here.
You just have to know when to apply the TVC in A2A combat, anyway it all comes down to how skilled the pilots are.

No matter how skilled the pilots are, TVC is useful for 2 things only.

Post stall maneuvering and high altitude maneuverability.

To counteract that, the system is heavy, draggy and mechanically complex, adding to significant maintenance issues.

Apart from the F-22 which is the most blatant "all the bells and whistles" aircraft around, the West has largely ignored TVC because of this:

In BVR air to air combat it adds little or nothing to an aircraft's capability, but rather detracts because it IS heavy and draggy as previously mentioned.

In strike/recon operations it adds nothing. Again it detracts.

In WVR combat, it adds capability in one narrow area of the flight regime (post stall).

IMHO the West has rightly ignored the cost (both financially and drag/weight wise) and reliability issues TVC presents in most aircraft.

A focus on improved "high G" WVR missiles has largely negated any usefulness TVC offers. Situational awareness is the name of the game, matched with adequate maneuverability. Super-maneuverability won't give you anything more (unless perhaps if you are down to using guns) and WVR air to air combat capabiliy is increasingly irrelevent in modern warfare.