F-14, F-15 and F-18 what they have in common

[jack412]

I was mainly clarifying the 80 deg, that it was instant and not sustained
I was just talking AOA, other than the f-22/35 I dont know any other plane that can roll at 55deg aoa for the legacy and about 60 deg for the super, sustained for the manoeuvre
I'm happy to be corrected

 

[Scorpion82]

That sustained AoA performance is for trimmed flight only. They don't really manoeuvre at all, they fly straight ahead in path with the nose being up and that's it. It's not like they will bank, pull, turn and reach and sustain such AoAs in these turns! That's a significant difference.

 

[jack412]

I did put up a link on the last page about the flight control system, and the legacy upgrade to roll at 55 deg AOA
perhaps it might be best to read that first

 

[Haavarla]

Scorpion82 is right. that is not sustained AoA..
Its more like slow speed handeling performance, which of course the SH beat the F-15C hands down.
Which it should, cause the SH is a Navy bird, aka it need that for CV operations..
This how ever does not make the SH superior over the F-15C in any way..

If Slow speed performance is so important, then Flankers would spank every other fighter out there with its superb slow speed handeling.
Well just told you its more to it than this..

 

[jack412]

I'm being very specific to AOA and not which plane is the best dog fighter, as you know, that type of post is frowned upon
if you prefer, I'm happy to call it a maintained or constant AOA during the roll
I think the f-15 is about 25 deg
what AOA can the flanker maintain during a roll, without departing from controlled flight ?

 

[AircraftAwesome]

You're pretty much right on the money. There's more details than that of course but you're basically right. These are the notes on those aircraft I made for an aircraft recognition course a while back if they're helpful.

F-14 has square, swept intakes, long VG wing and relatively small twin vertical tail with the fins atop the engine ducts. It's also got a much older cockpit style with two seats.
F-15 has square swept intakes, shorter triangular wing and taller tails mounted outside the engine ducts with a more obvious 'bubble' canopy.
F-18 C/D has smaller rounded intakes, stubby square wings with little sweep and an angled tail.
F-18 E/F (Super Hornet) is a larger F-18 with squared intakes.

Aircraft recognition course. THAT sound great! Any info on where, or what is the best one to take??

 

[AircraftAwesome]

As far as ID'ing goes, knowing where you are and what's going on in your area can also be fairly helpful in ID'ing planes.

For example, I used to live near MCAS Miramar (formerly NAS Miramar) back in the early 2000s. If any fast movers flew overhead, odds are they were F/A-18s, since that what the Navy and the Corps had based there. The same also applies to other forms of aircraft, be they combat or non-combat.

I see replies get widely disputed here, VERY quickly. No harm in it. So I will just say thank you everyone. I appreciate it. Most of the Air traffic here (Military) is Chinooks, out of New Century Kansas, which is closest to me. Thanks again everyone for the info.

 

[Haavarla]

I was only proving my point here.
The SH is a great aircraft, but it has its limitation.
Which differ from F-15C, due to the different aerodynamic configuration, wing design and of course its intended role.

P.s.
As for the AoA for Flanker, i honestly don't know the AoA during a roll..
But as for the Aerodynamic design, the Flanker has less compromis then the SH got.
Flankers superb slow speed handling is widly known, it is used both in Navy(CV) and airforce operation, in short it perform great in both roles.

 

[AircraftAwesome]

I was only proving my point here.
The SH is a great aircraft, but it has its limitation.
Which differ from F-15C, due to the different aerodynamic configuration, wing design and of course its intended role.

P.s.
As for the AoA for Flanker, i honestly don't know the AoA during a roll..
But as for the Aerodynamic design, the Flanker has less compromis then the SH got.
Flankers superb slow speed handling is widly known, it is used both in Navy(CV) and airforce operation, in short it perform great in both roles.

I apologize. I replied to your thread by accident. My apologies.

 

[AircraftAwesome]

As far as ID'ing goes, knowing where you are and what's going on in your area can also be fairly helpful in ID'ing planes.

For example, I used to live near MCAS Miramar (formerly NAS Miramar) back in the early 2000s. If any fast movers flew overhead, odds are they were F/A-18s, since that what the Navy and the Corps had based there. The same also applies to other forms of aircraft, be they combat or non-combat.

I see replies get widely disputed here, VERY quickly. No harm in it. So I will just say thank you everyone. I appreciate it. Most of the Air traffic here (Military) is Chinooks, out of New Century Kansas, which is closest to me. Thanks again everyone for the info.

 

[jack412]

Haavarla, I found that the su-27 has a critical AOA of 33°
Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker

 

[Cailet]

Aircraft recognition course. THAT sound great! Any info on where, or what is the best one to take??

It was a badge for scouts, sorry. We were Air Scouts so the best people at stuff like that had a better chance of being allowed to fly aircraft when we went to an airfield or did some flying with the RAF which was a good incentive in my book.

 

[МиГ-23МЛД]

Hmm.. I do not agree.
For the sake of this thread, lets keep all other aircraft beside the F-16,F-15, F14, F-18SH out.
The F-18SH have different AoA capability vs the F-15C.
The F-15C has a higher speed regime vs the SH, which can be used to its advantage.
If the F-15C pilot use his energy reserve from higher speed to his advantage, the F-15C can overcome the SH in a BFM exercise.
While having an impressive AoA rate, the SH tends to bleed an exceses of energy while turning & burning.
This mostly due to the different wing design between F-15C and SH....

HAAVARLA

All aircraft witrh the exception of the F-22, T-50 and in a lesser degree the Eurofighter, Su-35BM and MiG-31 are basicly subsonic.
The Mach 2.5 speed claimed for the F-15 is a short sprint of few minutes less than 10 minutes in real combat, and reaching tha speed will take them minimun 2-3 minutes from a cruise speed of 600km/h, so the F-18 is in no way in disadvantage againd an F-15 when armed with missiles of a speed of Mach 4-4.5.

 

[МиГ-23МЛД]

Haavarla, I found that the su-27 has a critical AOA of 33°
Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker

that is a bit incorrect. the Su-27 can go up to 55° or 60 ° of AoA before it experiences depature from its flight path and stalls its wings, but only will remain stable at AoA lower than 35°.
At AoA higher than 35° it will start experimenting with roll, yaw and pitch unstabilities before it develops wing stall.

 

[Haavarla]

HAAVARLA

All aircraft witrh the exception of the F-22, T-50 and in a lesser degree the Eurofighter, Su-35BM and MiG-31 are basicly subsonic.
The Mach 2.5 speed claimed for the F-15 is a short sprint of few minutes less than 10 minutes in real combat, and reaching tha speed will take them minimun 2-3 minutes from a cruise speed of 600km/h, so the F-18 is in no way in disadvantage againd an F-15 when armed with missiles of a speed of Mach 4-4.5.

Yes i agree.
But i was not making a point of a F-15C going about in M 2.0..
I said the F-15C has a easier transition in the middle speed regime here, lets say M 0.4-1.2.
My point is the F-15C will bring with it more energy into a BFM manuvere and that the F-15 pilot can exploit it.
And equal important the ability to maintaining and regaining energy.
Its not the engine thrust or T/W ratio, but more the more dragier wing design and air intakes in the SH which makes the different.
The SH have better nose authority but it also trade a lot of energy in high AoA.

 

[Haavarla]

that is a bit incorrect. the Su-27 can go up to 55° or 60 ° of AoA before it experiences depature from its flight path and stalls its wings, but only will remain stable at AoA lower than 35°.
At AoA higher than 35° it will start experimenting with roll, yaw and pitch unstabilities before it develops wing stall.

Well it depends how you look at it.
If you mean instant AoA at 55-60 at slow speed, yes i agree.
But the FCS/speed-limiter will instantly bring the nose autority under control again..
And it will bleed energy fast, so Not a thing a pilot would do often.
If the pilot disengage the speed-limiter it can do 120 deg instant.
Like we have seen at airshow.. but not a very usefull manuvere..

In sustained AoA, it can do an average 35 deg AoA in a 360 turn, which is fantastic.
It was documented by western spectators at Pairs Airshow back in the 91, but that beeing said it was a Flanker with minimum fuel etc, so it is not something it can do with weapons and 4000-6000kg fuel.
So all this AoA is a bit relative..

 

[МиГ-23МЛД]

Yes i agree.
But i was not making a point of a F-15C going about in M 2.0..
I said the F-15C has a easier transition in the middle speed regime here, lets say M 0.4-1.2.
My point is the F-15C will bring with it more energy into a BFM manuvere and that the F-15 pilot can exploit it.
And equal important the ability to maintaining and regaining energy.
Its not the engine thrust or T/W ratio, but more the more dragier wing design and air intakes in the SH which makes the different.
The SH have better nose authority but it also trade a lot of energy in high AoA.

i do not know exactly which is the best fighter, but i would rather consider the F-18 a better fighter, the F-15 is said to very agile but i do not know how real is that.
i have seen a figure of sustained turn rate 18 deg/s for the Super Hornet, but like everything will depend in the aircraft weight.
Most numbers should give a combat weight with some weapons and fuel.
you have to consider the avionics, stealth factor and price.

At sea level, the F/A-18C's sustained turn rate is 19.2 degrees
per second, while the F/A-18E's sustained rate is 18 degrees per
second. The instantaneous bleed rate of the F/A-18C is 54 knots
per second, whereas the F/A-18E will lose 65 knots per second in
a turn.

-- At 15,000 feet, the F/A-18C's sustained turn rate is 12.3
degrees per second, while the F/A-18E's sustained rate is 11.6
degrees per second. The instantaneous bleed rate of the F/A-18C
is 62 knots per second, whereas the F/A-18E will lose 76 knots
per second in a turn.
Navy Aviation: F/A-18E/F will Provide Marginal Operational Improvement at High Cost (Chapter Report, 06/18/96, GAO/NSIAD-96-98).

i doubt the F-15 surpasses the F-18, i know the F-14 was no match for the F-18 for sure

At 5,000 feet at maximum thrust, the F/A-18C accelerates from
0.8 Mach to 1.08 Mach\7 in 21 seconds, whereas the F/A-18E will
take 52.8 seconds.

-- At 20,000 feet at maximum thrust, the F/A-18C accelerates from
0.8 Mach to 1.2 Mach in 34.6 seconds, whereas the F/A-18E takes
50.3 seconds.

-- At 35,000 feet at maximum thrust, the F/A-18C accelerates from
0.8 Mach to 1.2 Mach in 55.80 seconds, whereas the F/A-18E takes
64.85 seconds. The F/A-18C accelerates from 0.8 Mach to 1.6
Mach in 2 minutes
12 seconds, whereas the F/A-18E takes 3 minutes and 4 seconds

this data indicates that against a AAM the F-15 won`t be faster to the degree of out running the AIM-120, the only defence is stealth and radar detection, so in my opinion the F-18 has good odds by simply better stealth design and a HMS with plenty of AIM-120s against a F-15

 

[Bonza]

A gentle reminder to keep this out of x vs y thread territory, to which it's straying perilously close...

 

[Jhom]

As far as I know, the F-18 tends to be better at dogfight when the altitude is low and the speed slow when compared to the F-16...

F-16 are very good doing clean manouvers, but once this manouvers get "dirty" it starts to loose speed very quickly, this doesnt happen with the F-18...

This is a video of a real DF between a turkish F-16 and a greek Mirage 2000 where you can see clearly the F-16 loosing speed and becoming a sitting duck for the greek pilot, who locks the turk with both radar and infrared missiles... enjoy...

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1geh_MfaOM"]YouTube - gama ton koloTourko[/nomedia]

 

[Haavarla]

F-16 are very good doing clean manouvers, but once this manouvers get "dirty" it starts to loose speed very quickly, this doesnt happen with the F-18...

Wrong, it happens to all fighters like SH, Flankers, Rafale. F-22 etc..
I assume with 'dirty', you mean the aircraft exceed a certain AoA.
That is the pilots table, not bleed to much energy in a fight.

If you mean 'dirty' like with additional DT or missiles.. it depends on configuration.