F-14, F-15 and F-18 what they have in common

A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The F/A-18 HAS replaced the F-14 in the US navy. There is a Sqn or 2 left of F-14D's, however they are due to be retired by about August 06. At that point, only Iran will still operate them, and their flightworthiness, has to be questionable at best.

Here's what the RAAF thought of the F/A-18 when it compared it to the F-16 in the early 80's:

"The F-18 exhibited no buffet at high AoA with supersonic flight achieved at 80 degrees AoA.

F-16 with its initial rigid fixed stick controller offered little feedback to pilot control inputs and caused digfficulty with slow speed handling in approach configuration when confronted by gusty wind conditions and being loaded with large external stores. Hornet did not suffer this.

With only differential stabilators and spoilers for lateral control, full control deflection gave a slower rate of roll than Hornet.

F-16 engine developmental failures with P&W F100 engines. Afterburner prone to flame out at high altitudes and not at all easy to relight. The F100 did not have a light-off detector that would automatically retard fuel flow to the AB in the event of a flame out. Resultant build up of unburnt fuel and the subsequent relight caused an "unstart".

When entering maximum rate "break turns" from level flight, 180 degrees could be turned before full AB power was achieved. By this stage the aircraft had bled off 200knots in the turn, without the ability to engage full AB sooner. This didn’t happen with the F404 of the Hornet.

Mechanical linkages to the variable inlet guide vanes were difficult to keep adjusted and often wore out due to high levels of accoustic vibration. Engine airflow problems were the norm with early F-16A/B variants.

F-16 used Nickel Cadmium batteries as a back-up to power the internal electrical systems. In the event of an engine failure, the four battery system was prone to failure itself.

The flight control software of the F-16 was designed to instantly reset all control surfaces to the streamlined settings initially engaged. In the case of an abrupt negative 5G bunt (for example), the main generator, back up hydrazine emergency generator and batteries would go offline and result in the electrical fly-by-wire undetecting latent failure in the backup system. Limited diagnostics and an inability to provide power to the emergency generator by other means meant it wasn’t as redundant as the Hornet in its FCS.

Lack of BVR missiles over the Hornet resulted in the RAAF giving the F-16 the arse. The early APG-66 radar was not a continuous wave radar and was unable to integrate BVR weapons. It also had a tendency to lock up on false target indications especially from ground sources.

Penguin was the only anti-ship missile cleared at the time on F-16. Not as useful as Hornet/Harpoon.

F-16 had inferior cackpit ergonomics to Hornet.

Slam engine acceleration on the Hornet was superior to F-16. It took only 3.5 seconds from idle to max AB, whereas it took a woeful five times longer for F-16 to do same!!!

The F-16 was subject to fifth stage AB lock out inside the AB light up envelope boundary.

Initail test showed the F-16 engine performance to be substandard for the RAAF when slam acceleration from a cold-soaked flight idle to full AB at 52,000 feet, 110knots and 38 degrees AoA with half rudder deflection resulted in a near loss of the aircraft from controlled flight. Same example with Hornet produced an effortless test with no loss of control".

Courtesy of Magoo's book, mostly... ;)

The F/A-18 had superior air combat capability over F-16, as well as superior strike capability, and a maritime strike capability with Harpoon, which F-16 STILL does not have. Early Hornet's had superior range and acceleration to F-16, though the F-16 was assessed as a "slightly" better dogfighter.

One area where F-16 DID excel, was in it's cost. Witha larger build quantity and no need to build an airframe capable of being operated from a carrier, plus the limited BVR capability, the F-16 was significantly cheaper.

Subsequent models of both aircraft have improved significantly in all area's. Nearly all early model F-18/F-16's hae been upgraded to an F/A-18C/F-16C level of capability.

F-14's are an excellent interceptor but clearly show their age. Phoenix is no longer relevant as it was withdrawn from USN service years ago (and never sold to Iran). F-14 was never upgraded to carry AMRAAM or late model WVR missiles (such as AIM-9X). As such, with only AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-9M AAM's, it'd be at a significant disadvantage against either an F/A-18 OR F-16 in modern air combat. 20 years ago, things would have been different, but not now.

F-15's have been, just about the greatest fighter aircraft ever built. With an air combat record of around 100-nil, it has triumphed against every other combat aircraft it has ever faced. F-15E Strike Eagles are also superb long range tactical strike aircraft. Latest variants, like South Korea's F-15K and Singapore's F-15SG are likely to remain highly capable combat aircraft for a long time to come.

As to what there is in common amongst these aircraft? They are all American designed and built. They are twin engine fighter aircraft, except F-16, which only has a single engine. That's about it. F-14 and F-15 were designed almost exclusively for air combat (but with "latent" bombing capability) F-18 and F-16 were designed as "tier 2" multi-role aircraft, that could conduct air combat missions and strike missions as required. Compromises are made in all aircraft design's, however ALL of these aircraft have served their respective airforces extremely capably and with the exception of the F-14, will do so for many years to come.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
rebellious said:
Admin: text deleted. Pls read the forum rules about appropriate behaviour and civility towards other posters.

where did u get that from. the US f-14s and f-18s are ONLY in the navy and the f-15 is in the usaf. and the f-14 was decommisioned cuz mainatainance was too expensive. the f-16 is an economical fighter of the usaf and the f-18 is an economical fighter for the navy, both are multirole. the f-18 cant even reach mach 2!! and it has a small payload. it doesnt have enough range when compared to the tomcat so it cant penetrate deep into enemy terriitroy and get back to the carrier. \
thts y the indians are more interested in the mig29K over the f-18, gremlin is right,

get the facts from formal high ranked naval ppl:
http://www.flightjournal.com/articles/f14f18/f14f18_2.asp
I'm just wondering why he's getting his panties in a bunch about a post which is more than two and a half years old!

Anyway, the F/A-18 'classic' has at least a third more range than the MiG-29K which is a compromised carrier-borne derivative of an original land-based design. The Hornet was designed for carrier work from day-one, and the Super Hornet which the Indian Air Force (not the Navy) is considering has a third more range than the classic. The MiG-29SMT will probably have a similar endurance to the 'classic'.

Top speeds are irrelevant unless you're setting records or bugging out after punching your weapons AND pylons off. If you hung similar external loads off a MiG-29SMT and a Super Hornet (say 2 aux tanks, 4-6 AAMs, a targeting pod and 2-4 PGMs), they would have similar top speeds (around 1.2 on a good day at altitude, subsonic if hot and/or at sea level), but the Super will still out turn and out range the MiG.

Aussie Digger said:
Courtesy of Magoo's book, mostly...
Thanks for the plug AD. Love ya work!

Aussie Digger said:
F-14 and F-15 were designed almost exclusively for air combat (but with "latent" bombing capability). F-18 and F-16 were designed as "tier 2" multi-role aircraft, that could conduct air combat missions and strike missions as required. Compromises are made in all aircraft design's, however ALL of these aircraft have served their respective airforces extremely capably and with the exception of the F-14, will do so for many years to come.
The only area where I'd differ with you AD is that the F-16 wasn't designed from the outset as a 'tier II' multi-role, but rather pretty much as a day fighter only. It grew through several block incarnations (15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50, and about 140 sub-models!) into a superb multi-role fighter but didn't really match even the earlier Hornets until it reached its CJ/CG Block 40 level. In its latest E/F Block 60 form, the F-16 is probably better than any 'classic' Hornet and not far short of the Block 2 Super Hornet in capability.

Magoo
 
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A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Magoo said:
I'm just wondering why he's getting his panties in a bunch about a post which is more than two and a half years old!

Thanks for the plug AD. Love ya work!

The only area where I'd differ with you AD is that the F-16 wasn't designed from the outset as a 'tier II' multi-role, but rather pretty much as a day fighter only. It grew through several block incarnations (15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50, and about 140 sub-models!) into a superb multi-role fighter but didn't really match even the earlier Hornets until it reached its CJ/CG Block 40 level. In its latest E/F Block 60 form, the F-16 is probably better than any 'classic' Hornet and not far short of the Block 2 Super Hornet in capability.

Magoo
She's right mate. I bought it quite a while back and thoroughly enjoyed it. Speaking of which reminds me, I have to renew my AA subscription soon...

Was the F/A-18A/B really designed as an "all weather" fighter right from the outset, once the design was settled upon after YF-17 was chosen as the Navy fighter, and F-18L, pretty much discarded?

Also, do you know if there is any chance, additional USN/USMC F/A-18A/B "+" or C/D models would be available for purchase or lease by RAAF, if necessary? (Say significant strategic deterioration in our immediate region?) I'm not suggesting any likelyhood of it actually happening, but is the idea feasible?

Curious...
 

Pursuit Curve

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
She's right mate. I bought it quite a while back and thoroughly enjoyed it. Speaking of which reminds me, I have to renew my AA subscription soon...

Was the F/A-18A/B really designed as an "all weather" fighter right from the outset, once the design was settled upon after YF-17 was chosen as the Navy fighter, and F-18L, pretty much discarded?

Also, do you know if there is any chance, additional USN/USMC F/A-18A/B "+" or C/D models would be available for purchase or lease by RAAF, if necessary? (Say significant strategic deterioration in our immediate region?) I'm not suggesting any likelyhood of it actually happening, but is the idea feasible?

Curious...


If the RAAF Purchases F 18 C + Surplus from the USA does that mean that there is no confidence in the JSF? I firmly believe that would be a good idea.

The development of any new weapon system is costly and protracted these days, and with the amount of airframes that are "Surplus" one could theoretically get an air arm going just by visiting AMARC and talking the yanks into a used car type lease or purchase. All thats missing is a used car lot type sign in neon and a salesman dressed in plaid polyester pants!

This I guess brings another question to the fore. The airframe is meant to carry weapons, and the weapons (JDAM, JSOW, Standoff precision weapons etc) will mean that the realiablity of said airfame is just to get weapons to the area, deliver them, and get back to base. The F 18C would fit that bill brilliantly, the only defitioncy is range, which the USN had issues with when the F 18C Was used in its Carrier Launched Aircraft role.

I know my opinion flies in the face of the F35 lobby, but considering that air threats are usually overated and the primary mission these days is to put heavy metal on ground targets, one does not need new airframes as much as before.

The F 18C+ option is great, and Australia is an unsinkable aircraft carrier, with nice long runways for the Hornet.

Getting back on topic, teh one similiarity between the 14, 15, 16 and 18 was the change in emphasis from defense against bombers and an emphasis on dogfighting capability and maneuverability, advancements in cockpit design, engine power ( F404, GE F100, TF30 etc) and of course all teh composite materials and FBW tech. The teen series, as I call them, also put to rest the ghost of teh airwar over North Vietnam where US fighter design did not lend itself to close in dogfighting, and that was a shock to the USAF, USN Marines.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Aussie Digger said:
Was the F/A-18A/B really designed as an "all weather" fighter right from the outset, once the design was settled upon after YF-17 was chosen as the Navy fighter, and F-18L, pretty much discarded?
While the USAF YF-17 was pitched against the YF-16 for the light weight fighter role, the F/A-18 was pretty much a clean sheet design for the Navy for an all-weather multi-role fighter to replace the A-4, A-6, A-7 and F-4. The F-18L was then a lightened version of the F/A-18A, with a less robust undercarriage, non-folding wings and other deletions. Interestingly, the F-18L would have been a rocketship, with the YF-17s which were later used as F-18L demonstrators showing their ability to supercruise (clean) and climb at 40K/minute.

Aussie Digger said:
Also, do you know if there is any chance, additional USN/USMC F/A-18A/B "+" or C/D models would be available for purchase or lease by RAAF, if necessary? (Say significant strategic deterioration in our immediate region?) I'm not suggesting any likelyhood of it actually happening, but is the idea feasible?
The problem with the ex-USN jets is that, if they're in the desert, they're pretty much knackered. Most of the AMARC jets are A models and a few early Cs which would need to be 'HUGged' and then some to fit with our fleet. Most of the later Cs and Ds (with the APG-73 and EPE engines) are scheduled to get centre-barrels and stay with the USN/USMC for another decade until the F-35C is available in numbers.

The only possibility of what you suggest I could see would be if some of the A+ jets were to be released with a few thousand hours of life remaining on their CBs, as these are probably closest in config to our HUGged Hornets (APG-73, AMRAAM, new cockpit displays, CIT, ARC-210).

I guess the other option would be to do what Spain did in the mid-1990s, and acquire 12-24 older airframes and use them for training only. High intensity exercises like FCI training and major exercises etc would still be flown on the HUGged jets, but conversion rides, pax rides, air displays, basic A2G work, fleet support etc could be flown with the older jets, thus spreading the work out across the fleet more, thus extending the HUGged fleet's life of type. It may alleviate the need to do extra CBs.

Magoo
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting Read

Aussie Digger said:
Here's what the RAAF thought of the F/A-18 when it compared it to the F-16 in the early 80's:

"The F-18 exhibited no buffet at high AoA with supersonic flight achieved at 80 degrees AoA...........................

Courtesy of Magoo's book, mostly... ;)

..................The F/A-18 had superior air combat capability over F-16, as well as superior strike capability, and a maritime strike capability with Harpoon, which F-16 STILL does not have. Early Hornet's had superior range and acceleration to F-16, though the F-16 was assessed as a "slightly" better dogfighter........................
This post made for a very interesting reading. What book is this ?

Are there any other reference texts you could recommend that go to this level?

:)
 

Pursuit Curve

New Member
There is no doubt as to the AOA capabilities of the hornet, though 80 degrees while at supersonic speed is a bit of a stretch!

The range and load carrying capabilities should be superior to the F 16 because of the Naval Fighter requirements of the '18 over the land based capabilities of the '16. That is no surprise. The posts are going on to the 'which is better' route now, and I would like to remind everyone that the aircraft in question were all designed and built at different times, the F 14 entering service first, then the F 15, followed by the F 16 then the F 18. It is only reasonable to see that the F 18 benefited from the experience gathered from the previous three. So, how are they similar? Again they reflect the change in policy for tactical aircraft in the west at that time.

The F 18 in particular was designed to replace the F 4 phantom and the A 7 Corsair in Strike and fighter roles, also economising with single pilot operations vs the 2 place F 4 phantom, and giving a self escort/Strike capability that the A 7 Corsair lacked.

The F 16 has the advantage of egernomic design of the Ejection seat that is reclined to assist the piolt in with satnding 'G', and also incredible thrust to wieght ratio which assists acceleration.

But again it is pointless to run a comparison, except that now all the emphasis is to build one multi purpose airframe instead of having multiple airframes that do the same job but have very different supply and logistical trails, hence the F 35.

So there we are, The lessons learned from teh F 18 MRCA is the root of
the F 35.

Good lord I need a beer after this! :)
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Occum said:
This post made for a very interesting reading. What book is this ?

Are there any other reference texts you could recommend that go to this level?

:)
Well, I'd hate to do a shameless plug... ahh, but what the hell!!! :rolleyes:

It's called Hornets Downunder - Celebrating 20 years of F/A-18 service with the RAAF.

It's available from http://www.ausaviation.com.au

The book goes into great detail about the development of the F/A-18, and there's over 2000 alone words written by one of the RAAF evaluation pilots when he flew the jet in the 1979, 80 and 81. He goes into much detail about the differences between the F/A-18 and the F-16 in those early days.

Actually, to the mods and administrators - can anyone give me an idea on how much it'd be to advertise the book online here at DT? Cheers

Magoo
 
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umair

Peace Enforcer
Call it personal bias or what, but having seen and loved nothing more than Vipers since my childhood I can never imagine one being bested by a Hornet.
In our(Pakistan's) case during the 80's we were going for the F-18L before General Dynamics offered us the Falcons and according to PShamim we jumped at the chance to acquire them as according to our evaluation, the Viper beat the Hornet hands down. Then again differrent countries, different forces, different requirements.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
umair said:
Call it personal bias or what, but having seen and loved nothing more than Vipers since my childhood I can never imagine one being bested by a Hornet.
In our(Pakistan's) case during the 80's we were going for the F-18L before General Dynamics offered us the Falcons and according to PShamim we jumped at the chance to acquire them as according to our evaluation, the Viper beat the Hornet hands down. Then again differrent countries, different forces, different requirements.
True, Australia wanted a BVR capable multi-role fighter that was equally adept at strike and maritime strike missions as it was at A2A. Apparently Pakistan didn't (choosing a non BVR capable fighter)... :D
 

umair

Peace Enforcer
Our's came after you'r Hornets AD and were the block 15S, the ones with the continous wave APG-66 and capable(if provided) of carrying, firing and guiding to targets AIM-7s and AIM-120s.
BTW F-16Cs do have Harpoon capability AD. Ask the Hellenic airforce:D
 

Pursuit Curve

New Member
F-14's are an excellent interceptor but clearly show their age. Phoenix is no longer relevant as it was withdrawn from USN service years ago (and never sold to Iran). F-14 was never upgraded to carry AMRAAM or late model WVR missiles (such as AIM-9X). As such, with only AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-9M AAM's, it'd be at a significant disadvantage against either an F/A-18 OR F-16 in modern air combat. 20 years ago, things would have been different, but not now.

Actually Aussie, The AIM 54 was sold to Iran, and a few of them are supposed to have scored A2A victories over Iraqi Aircraft in the Iran/Iraq war.
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Usmc F/a-18

Just had to post this one:

"Two California Highway Patrol Officers were conducting speeding enforcement on I-15, just north of the Marine Corps Air Station at Miramar . One of the officers was using a hand held radar device to check speeding vehicles approaching the crest of a hill.

The officers were suddenly surprised when the radar gun began reading 400 miles per hour. The officer attempted to reset the radar gun, but it would not reset and then turned off.

Just then a deafening roar over the treetops revealed that the radar had in fact locked on to a USMC F/A-18 Hornet which was engaged in a low flying exercise near the location.

Back at the CHP Headquarters the Patrol Captain fired off a complaint to the USMC Base Commander The reply came back in true USMC style:

Thank you for your letter. We can now complete the file on this incident.

You may be interested to know that the tactical computer in the Hornet had detected the presence of, and subsequently locked on to, your hostile radar equipment and automatically sent a jamming signal back to it, which is why it shut down.

Furthermore, an Air-to-Ground missile aboard the fully armed aircraft had also automatically locked on to your equipment location.

Fortunately, the Marine Pilot flying the Hornet recognized the situation for what it was, quickly responded to the missile system alert status and was able to override the automated defense system before the missile was launched to destroy the hostile radar position.

The pilot also suggests you cover your mouths when cussing at them, since the video systems on these jets are very high tech. Sergeant Johnson, the officer holding the radar gun, should get his dentist to check his left rear molar. It appears the filling is loose. Also, the snap is broken on his holster.

Thank you for your concern.

Semper Fi"
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
:eek:nfloorl:
Just had to post this one:

"Two California Highway Patrol Officers were conducting speeding enforcement on I-15, just north of the Marine Corps Air Station at Miramar . One of the officers was using a hand held radar device to check speeding vehicles approaching the crest of a hill.

The officers were suddenly surprised when the radar gun began reading 400 miles per hour. The officer attempted to reset the radar gun, but it would not reset and then turned off.

Just then a deafening roar over the treetops revealed that the radar had in fact locked on to a USMC F/A-18 Hornet which was engaged in a low flying exercise near the location.

Back at the CHP Headquarters the Patrol Captain fired off a complaint to the USMC Base Commander The reply came back in true USMC style:

Thank you for your letter. We can now complete the file on this incident.

You may be interested to know that the tactical computer in the Hornet had detected the presence of, and subsequently locked on to, your hostile radar equipment and automatically sent a jamming signal back to it, which is why it shut down.

Furthermore, an Air-to-Ground missile aboard the fully armed aircraft had also automatically locked on to your equipment location.

Fortunately, the Marine Pilot flying the Hornet recognized the situation for what it was, quickly responded to the missile system alert status and was able to override the automated defense system before the missile was launched to destroy the hostile radar position.

The pilot also suggests you cover your mouths when cussing at them, since the video systems on these jets are very high tech. Sergeant Johnson, the officer holding the radar gun, should get his dentist to check his left rear molar. It appears the filling is loose. Also, the snap is broken on his holster.

Thank you for your concern.

Semper Fi"

I would of loved to see the expressions on there faces when that Hornet came buzzing buy, also would of been neat to see the look on that police captains face when he read their response.:eek:nfloorl:
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Just had to post this one:

"Two California Highway Patrol Officers were conducting speeding enforcement on I-15, just north of the Marine Corps Air Station at Miramar . One of the officers was using a hand held radar device to check speeding vehicles approaching the crest of a hill.

The officers were suddenly surprised when the radar gun began reading 400 miles per hour. The officer attempted to reset the radar gun, but it would not reset and then turned off.

Just then a deafening roar over the treetops revealed that the radar had in fact locked on to a USMC F/A-18 Hornet which was engaged in a low flying exercise near the location.

Back at the CHP Headquarters the Patrol Captain fired off a complaint to the USMC Base Commander The reply came back in true USMC style:

Thank you for your letter. We can now complete the file on this incident.

You may be interested to know that the tactical computer in the Hornet had detected the presence of, and subsequently locked on to, your hostile radar equipment and automatically sent a jamming signal back to it, which is why it shut down.

Furthermore, an Air-to-Ground missile aboard the fully armed aircraft had also automatically locked on to your equipment location.

Fortunately, the Marine Pilot flying the Hornet recognized the situation for what it was, quickly responded to the missile system alert status and was able to override the automated defense system before the missile was launched to destroy the hostile radar position.

The pilot also suggests you cover your mouths when cussing at them, since the video systems on these jets are very high tech. Sergeant Johnson, the officer holding the radar gun, should get his dentist to check his left rear molar. It appears the filling is loose. Also, the snap is broken on his holster.

Thank you for your concern.

Semper Fi"
I'm sorry but this is just a myth.
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/techno/radar.asp
 

crobato

New Member
AOA
My first major post to any site guys .last nite i was watching a movie in it i saw F-14 .the 1st thing which comes to my mind wht is major difference b/w a;lll these fighters (f-14,f-15,f-18) all have almost the same aerodynamic srtructure can any one one tells me wht is mthe moajor difference b/w them a part from naval version export version and american version
ws
Since you are asking a question about aerodynamic structure, the answer is not found with answers that pertain to role: this is so because it was designed for so on.

The only thing common aerodynamically between the three are having vertical tails. But the aerodynamic concepts are generations apart, almost symbolically representing the great leaps and bounds in aerodynamic understanding at the time between the F-14 was designed and by the time the YF-17 was designed.

F-14: Variable Swing wing concept. This comes from the school of design that once thought that the variable wing is an answer to everything from short take off to high speed flight.

F-15 represents the modified or tailed delta wing concept. Its really a delta, with an added tail. Structurally and aerodynamically, the F-15 has all the benefits of a low aspect delta wing, like the sweep for high speed and the long wing root that gives the wings and fuselage great rigidity. Around the time the F-15 was being developed, John Boyd's EM theories became known and began to influence the design.

The F-18 is the most complex of all, even more aerodynamically complex than the F-16. In fact, the aerodynamic concepts of the F-18 is a generation ahead of the F-14 and F-15 in the focus on vortice management. Its one of the few aircraft out there that treats vortex layers like a science and not guesswork, and this is one of the characteristics of a true 4th gen fighter, not a 3.5th gen one.
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The F-18 is the most complex of all, even more aerodynamically complex than the F-16. In fact, the aerodynamic concepts of the F-18 is a generation ahead of the F-14 and F-15 in the focus on vortice management. Its one of the few aircraft out there that treats vortex layers like a science and not guesswork, and this is one of the characteristics of a true 4th gen fighter, not a 3.5th gen one.
Excellent observation mate on the F/A-18 vortices management. One of the dominant physical charateristics of the F/A-18 are the wing-body leading edge strakes that extend to the length of the cockpit for vortex management. You will also find these strakes to a lesser extent on the F-16, Mig-29 and Su-27/30/35.
 
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