Eurofighter or F-15 for S.Korea?

[tphuang]

Overall F-15 and Flankers meet or exceed tiffies flight performance.

not a chance. You should check the ITR and STR on typhoon vs flankers/f-15.

a fellow delta-canard J-10 routinely out-turns flankers in plaaf exercises.

 

[Thumper]

There is more to performance than ITR and STR. I was talking about over all.

 

[120mm goodness]

First off lets be specific about what you are talking about since so much of Tiffies supposed capabilities are planned improvments and are not yet in production. MWS and TRDs? Second you better do some research on AMRAAM. The later models (already fielded) are acknowledged to be extremely jam resistant. While no one is publishing KP it is thought to be on the order of 75% against modern targets.

AMRAAM capability against conventional jammers is EXACTLY why the RAF and USN are fitting TRDs to the Typhoon and Super Hornet.

Meaningless, aside from direct engagements they are also meant to be used as force multipliers for 4.5 gen AC. That said build cost for later Raptors is about $110 million, vs Tiffies 80 - 90 million. I think there is a problem with your math.

Average system cost is roughly 2.5 times that of Typhoon, depending on exchange rates. (~$70bn/183 or ~$380m for the F-22, compared to ~$35bn/232 or ~$150m for the RAF Typhoon). Trying to compare unit flyaway costs is difficult and pretty meaningless as you can never to sure they are actually using the same definition.

No such thing would be encountered in real life so unless you want to provide marketing material for the manufacturer that fools people like you what would be the point.

Heh, do you think the rest of the world has simply given up and is making no effort to find ways to track low-RCS aircraft? If you dont test the F-22 against that technology, you run the risk of having a very nasty surprise one day.

Yes it does but people like you either cannot accept it or do not understand it. It means that all things being equal the gen 5 fighter has capablities so much in excess of a 4.5 or 4th gen fighter that it will likely win any engagement between the two and dominate the skies of an airforce that does not have 5th gen fighters.

Ohh noo, I can't grasp the highly complex concept that the number 5.0 is higher than 4.5!!! *panic attack* : nfloorl: Hmm, but is this was true, why doesn't the US just buy one single 5th generation F-22, apparently they should be able to destroy all air forces in the world with just that one aircraft because it's FIFTH GENERATION and everyone else only has forth or four point fifth!!!

First off any difference in performance between an Eagle or a Flanker and tiffie is minor at best. Fact is an eagle can cruise at transonic speeds all day long. Tiffies ability to marginally supercruise for short periods of time can no way compare to the Eagles long term (just do some research on fuel carried and turbofans)speed advantage at 45k feet.

F-15 can. It's one of the things that distinguish it from the F-16. It is optimised for high altitude combat. Again a little research on your part would be helpful. Do you relaise we are not talking about tiffies marginal ability to supercruise we are now talking about using AB, hence using up lots of gas real quick.

Not for long enough to matter. Hello, study after study was doen when AC where being produced that routinely broke M2. They found out that 99.9 percent of the air combat took place at subsonic speeds.

Overall F-15 and Flankers meet or exceed tiffies flight performance.

I love the way you switch "flight performance" to mean "supercruise" only, and completly back away from debating whether supersonic agility is useful for an AMRAAM equipped fighter. All current fighters, including F-22 and Typhoon, are really subsonic cruisers because their best range and endurence speeds are subsonic. The only true supercruisers were the B-58, B-70, A-12/SR-71, Tu-144 and Concorde.
The REASON what 99.9% of air combat takes place at subsonic speeds is that the previous generation of fighters had very little maneuverability at high speed. F-22 and Typhoon both have excellent turn performance when supersonic, which should provide a useable advantage even if F-22s stealth is compromised.
F-15A was limited to Mach 1.78 with four AIM-7, four AIM-9 and a useful internal fuel load. The latest F-15s might be a bit faster than that, with the latest engines. The Russians have always claimed that the Flanker and Fulcrum were more maneuverable than the F-15, they've never claimed much in the way of extra speed or altitude (they had the Foxhound for that).

But so many others do not. Try AESA. Try AIM120D. Try lo, try wide variety of weapons carriage. We could make the list longer but some of the things I would mention you will claim tiffie may get in the next 10 years

Sorry for A2A top 4 AC flying today are as follows:
F-22
F/A-18 Block II
SU-30MKI/F-15 Upgrades
Tiffy.

F-35 will also be superior in A2A since Tiffy won;t be able to see it.

I also wonder why Europeans spent so much money on an AC that is about to be relegated to 2nd line status also.

I've got to ask; you appear to be claiming that stealth and AESA are the most critical requirements for A2A these days and that real air combat will still be subsonic at medium altitude, so extra speed/altitude and agility beyond that of the "4th generation" fighters isn't useful. If that is so, why dont you support scrapping the F-22 and buying more F-35s instead? It has STEALTH and AESA, and has similar flight performance to earlier fighters like the F-16 and F/A-18. I'm sure it can be made to supercruise as well as F-15 for only moderate expenditure. Justifying the HUGE cost of F-22 is difficult if the flight performance it offers is useless.

 

[jaffo4011]

so thumper,the proof isnt in the pudding then?.....i suppose the typhoon being a superior close in dog fighter isnt enough.you see i always thought that the f22 was expected to be much better in that respect(with its thrust vectoring) and im kind of concerned that if its a let down in that area then how do we know its up to spec in others?(such as its much lauded stealth technology).

for example if an early captor radar in the typhoon is already capable of picking up the f22 at bvr then a close in combat between the two becomes more likely which would then leave the typhoon in the favourable position (according to the above account) wouldnt it??

it seems to me that either the f22 isnt as revolutionary in comparison to the typhoon as has been stated so many times or that the typhoon is simply much better than expected.i guess its a combination of the two.

oh and re the f15 v typhoon comments i seem to recall that a couple of years ago 2 development typhoons were bounced by some strike eagles over the uk and the f15's left with their twin tails between their legs!

back on topic,and in respect of the above the koreans would seem to be in the position of being able to purchase an aircraft not so far removed from the f22 in most areas and superior in some instead of the elderly but still effective f15e.
a force comprising of the two aircraft with the typhoon taking over the air superiority role would seem to me,to be an ideal mix.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Meaningless, aside from direct engagements they are also meant to be used as force multipliers for 4.5 gen AC. That said build cost for later Raptors is about $110 million, vs Tiffies 80 - 90 million. I think there is a problem with your math.

Actually a CRS report on F-22A's had them in late 2006 coming off the production line at US $175m a piece.

A "slight" difference there...

And now back to the normal debate...

 

[Falstaff]

Oh Thumper, another thread where you "get it" and all others don't? You proved your college kid scale model knowledge based on Carlo and wikipedia in other threads. And now again you twist and turn like an eel. Very funny.

However biggest factor will be not annoying the Americans, They could and would defend S.Korea. Buying into UK, German and Spanish industrial favour would mean very little if thier neighbour turned up the heat.

Now that's a very good and important point here, as is this one:

The Far East is still very much America's backyard when it comes to air force jets procurement. Though things are moving a bit. Seeing Anglo-Italian EH101s fly with the Japanese Navy (for a long time Seahawk-restricted domain) - part of an initial contract for 14 EH101s to replace MH53 and S61 - would have been unthinkable just a decade ago.
I think what is key is finding a regional partner to build under licence and eventually co-develop regional variants. If you've got a partner the size of Mitsubishi conglomerate, just to give an example, you do have a chance to beat the US competition. Though there is still a long, long path ahead to come close.

Can anyone of the more mature members here really imagine S. Korea buying European?
The Pros and Cons of the contenders have been widely discussed in the "Another new fighter jet for Korea"-thread, so I'll just play the politics card: in that respect the F-15 is the better choice for Korea.

 

[eckherl]

Oh Thumper, another thread where you "get it" and all others don't? You proved your college kid scale model knowledge based on Carlo and wikipedia in other threads. And now again you twist and turn like an eel. Very funny.



Now that's a very good and important point here, as is this one:



Can anyone of the more mature members here really imagine S. Korea buying European?
The Pros and Cons of the contenders have been widely discussed in the "Another new fighter jet for Korea"-thread, so I'll just play the politics card: in that respect the F-15 is the better choice for Korea.

Yep - ROK will go for the F-15, and I will bet that Japan also will stick with U.S designed aircraft, that will be a political decision also.

 

[Waylander]

Japan could be a little bit different. They are looking for an A2A fighter first. And they cannot wait too long because they have to replace their Phantoms.

JSF may be too late.

 

[120mm goodness]

First off lets be specific about what you are talking about since so much of Tiffies supposed capabilities are planned improvments and are not yet in production. MWS and TRDs? Second you better do some research on AMRAAM. The later models (already fielded) are acknowledged to be extremely jam resistant. While no one is publishing KP it is thought to be on the order of 75% against modern targets.

The REASON TRDs are needed is BECAUSE conventional jammers are not effective enough against AMRAAM.

Meaningless, aside from direct engagements they are also meant to be used as force multipliers for 4.5 gen AC. That said build cost for later Raptors is about $110 million, vs Tiffies 80 - 90 million. I think there is a problem with your math.

Given differences in calculating unit costs in different nations the only meaningful comparison would be between overall program costs. In this case F-22 in current value dollars is at least $70 billion divided between 183 airframes, while the RAFs Typhoons are worth somewhere between $30-40 billion (depending on what exchange rate you want to use), divided between 232 airframes. You do the math...

No such thing would be encountered in real life so unless you want to provide marketing material for the manufacturer that fools people like you what would be the point.

You do realise that tests with these sorts of systems have occured already in the EU and probably elsewhere and that the richer of your potential adversaries WILL be prioritising their deployment (if they dont already have them deployed). While obviously we arn't in a position to make any claims about how well they will perform, if would be madness not to test F-22 against them.

Yes it does but people like you either cannot accept it or do not understand it. It means that all things being equal the gen 5 fighter has capablities so much in excess of a 4.5 or 4th gen fighter that it will likely win any engagement between the two and dominate the skies of an airforce that does not have 5th gen fighters.

ohh nooo, I can't grasp the highly complex concept that 5.0 is a larger number that 4.5!! *panic attack* nfloorl:

Following your logic, a single F-22 could wipe the skys clear of 100's of Super Hornets or equivalent fighters. In which case you'd have to ask why those stupid american generals have wasted 10's of billions ordering 183 of them (and want EVEN MORE!!).

First off any difference in performance between an Eagle or a Flanker and tiffie is minor at best. Fact is an eagle can cruise at transonic speeds all day long. Tiffies ability to marginally supercruise for short periods of time can no way compare to the Eagles long term (just do some research on fuel carried and turbofans)speed advantage at 45k feet.

F-15 can. It's one of the things that distinguish it from the F-16. It is optimised for high altitude combat. Again a little research on your part would be helpful. Do you relaise we are not talking about tiffies marginal ability to supercruise we are now talking about using AB, hence using up lots of gas real quick.

Not for long enough to matter. Hello, study after study was doen when AC where being produced that routinely broke M2. They found out that 99.9 percent of the air combat took place at subsonic speeds.

Overall F-15 and Flankers meet or exceed tiffies flight performance.

I love the way you think that flight performance comes down to only supercruise The REASON that "study after study" showed that "99.9 percent" of air combat took place at subsonic speeds is BECAUSE the previous generation of fighters had very poor maneuverability at supersonic speeds. They had to slow down to maneuver (or maneuvering caused them to slow down). Typhoon and F-22 are designed to be able to maneuver at supersonic speeds as this is felt to offer an advantage to an AMRAAM equipped fighter.

But so many others do not. Try AESA. Try AIM120D. Try lo, try wide variety of weapons carriage. We could make the list longer but some of the things I would mention you will claim tiffie may get in the next 10 years

Sorry for A2A top 4 AC flying today are as follows:
F-22
F/A-18 Block II
SU-30MKI/F-15 Upgrades
Tiffy.

F-35 will also be superior in A2A since Tiffy won;t be able to see it.

I also wonder why Europeans spent so much money on an AC that is about to be relegated to 2nd line status also.

I've got to ask; You think that STEALTH, AESA and SUPERCRUISE are the only important criteria for a next generation fighter. If this is so, why do you support the F-22? The F-35 already has all the speed, altitude and agility you seem to believe is required, and has good stealth and AESA, while being significantly cheaper. The only capability you'd lose would be the supercruise, but if that's the only reason for the F-22 it is much more difficult to justify the cost. Wouldn't you prefer an additional 400-500 F-35As to a pathetic 183 F-22s?

 

[contedicavour]

Japan could be a little bit different. They are looking for an A2A fighter first. And they cannot wait too long because they have to replace their Phantoms.

JSF may be too late.

Yep. Besides, Japanese companies with aerospace divisions could become partners of European companies (Airbus in the civilian area and why not EADS, parent company of Airbus, in the military field as well).
It's a matter of offsets and of technology transfer and of course of financials. Japan could try to give it a try, at least on an initial batch. They weren't lucky last time they tried to customize an American jet to local need (F-2 as local adaptation of F16, of which only 80 will enter service).
Though for Japan as well as for ROK I agree political imperatives (and the ever closer Japanese-American alliance) will help the Americans.

cheers

 

[Jambo_100]

eurofighter

they should buy the eurofighter its so much better! it has more advenced technology, weapons and is more manouverable. i dont think it is faster than the f15 as the f15 is extreemly powerful. the EF has supercruise and a limited stealth capability. it is also one of the most manouverable fighters. on TV i saw it had all these cool voice activated things in the cockpit. if you want to lock on to a target you say "missile hotel" and it finds a target automaticly and locks on. its an awesome plane.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Japan could be a little bit different. They are looking for an A2A fighter first. And they cannot wait too long because they have to replace their Phantoms.

JSF may be too late.

Correction - JSF would be too late in this case.

Japan could probably wait to replace its F-15s with F-35s, but it cannot wait nearly as long to replace the F-4s. This is why the Typhoon is the perfect solution, as it will offer a much better long-term capability than the Super Hornet.

It will also allow the JASDF to stay ahead of its regional counterparts in terms of air superiority.

It's quite ironic that a project that has been criticised for being a "relic" of the Cold War could be so useful to countries on the other side of the world.

 

[contedicavour]

Correction - JSF would be too late in this case.

Japan could probably wait to replace its F-15s with F-35s, but it cannot wait nearly as long to replace the F-4s. This is why the Typhoon is the perfect solution, as it will offer a much better long-term capability than the Super Hornet.

It will also allow the JASDF to stay ahead of its regional counterparts in terms of air superiority.

It's quite ironic that a project that has been criticised for being a "relic" of the Cold War could be so useful to countries on the other side of the world.

Fully agree with the urgency of replacing the F4s. There are only 2 possibilities here fitting within the time frame, F18E/F or Typhoon (or F22 but we've already written about doubts on export authorization and on its huge costs)

cheers

 

[perfectgeneral]

Japanese Typhoon

I fully expect a deal that allows full production within Japan of the Typhoon. I don't know how the deal will stand on exports, but this facility would be well positioned to offer after sales support to other customers in the region.

Development pressure from Japan and Saudi Arabia might ensure the long-term success of the euro-nipon-fighter. The EJ200 has a lot of room for further development and there are several areas in which improvements are awaiting finances and a request for them (Thrust Vectoring, AESA, Conformal Fuel Tanks, etc).

The political card that the US holds does them no favour in the long run. If they can't (or won't - F-22) supply what the market wants then it will take more than politics to hold back market forces.

 

[Aussie Digger]

And then there was one:

Boeing Left as Sole Bidder for Fighter Contract

U.S. aerospace company Boeing will likely be the sole bidder to participate in the second phase of Korea¡¯s F-X fighter jet procurement project. Korea will purchase 20 F-15K fighter jets in the second phase of the defense project between 2010 and 2012. Originally three bidders were expected to compete to win the contract: U.S. defense manufacturer Lockheed Martin, European consortium Eurofighter International and Boeing.


Lockheed Martin recently withdrew its bid and now Eurofighter has also decided not to participate. According to a military source, Eurofighters agent European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. notified the Korean government of the decision Monday. That means Boeing is likely to be the sole bidder to submit an application under the Wednesday deadline, the source said. Lockheed Martin and Eurofighter seem to have given up after concluding that Boeing has an advantage since it won the contract for the first phase of the F-X project to supply 40 F-15K fighter jets by 2008.

(email announcement only)

 

[harryriedl]

in regards these new fighter compertions it could end like the austrian compation as the eurofighter was thougt to have very little chance of wining the comp [the very anti mill leftwing gov] and they manged to win true it was in EF backyard but it defitaily has got the best chance in japan a european fighter has sinces WW2

 

[contedicavour]

What is particularly entertaining for us Italians is that our leftist prime minister, Prodi, is currently in Tokyo doing his best to sell Typhoon to their Air Force
As I wrote previously in the thread, Finmeccanica Agusta-Westland is doing a very good job in Japan adding another 5 to already 40+ EH101 and AB139 and A109 commissioned in the past year.
Now it is openly proposing to open the partnership to Japanese industry.
I don't know which EFA consortium country is lead for Japan, but I've never seen before our PM acting so determinedly...

cheers

PS : Finmeccanica is responsible for 22% of the Typhoon programme's development and production.

 

[riksavage]

Janes (11 April) reports the UK Typhoons P1E swing wing capability will be in place 2010/11. The P1E capability for RAF Typhoons will allow them to engage air-threats whilst continuing bombing runs against ground targets, thus providing the aircraft with a true swing wing capability. I’m sure this could prove an attractive option for any potential Korean Typhoons buys.

 

[Waylander]

Did I understand something wrong? I thought there is only one company left in Korea. Boeing with its F-15E (Or whatever they call the version they offer).

But this could be interesting for Japan.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Did I understand something wrong? I thought there is only one company left in Korea. Boeing with its F-15E (Or whatever they call the version they offer).

Yes, apparently Boeing is now the only bidder. Eurofighter now may be concentrating on Japan - certainly they're the bigger potential customer.