Eurofighter or F-15 for S.Korea?

Scorpion82

New Member
The Euros did a good job with Tiffy but the fact is it is just another 4.5 genfighter for which many of its advanced features are still in development.
Once again generations have NOTHING to do with capabilities and technologies involved! The 4.5 gen is pure marketing BS created by the russians and maybe the americans too!

Lets keep in mind that 30 years ago when the Eagle first came out there was no AC in production that even came close to it's performance. Lets keep in mind that 30 years ago the Eagle was light years ahead of anything else and the worlds AC manufacturers are just now starting to be able to come close to it's performance.
If you call the 1980s when types like MiG-29 & Su-27 entered service "now" ok :rolleyes:.

The Koreans are using the Tiffy as a bargaining chip to reduce the price and have AEASA thrown in. They originally wanted to spend 80 million and they wound up spending $110 million a copy.
I'm pretty sure the Koreans will select the F-15K as it makes few sence to purchase a mixed fleet for the same or similar purposes. Let alone the political influence of the US there.

Before we go one with any claims about how wonderful Europcrapper is lets keep the discussion to what has been tested and is available within the next 24 months. No tanch, trench or whatever stories.
No aircraft will be delivered to SK in the next 24 month from a new deal:rolleyes:
Typhoon block 5 are available right NOW with full AA & initial AG capabilities. The only things missing is full PIRATE (currently only with limited functions available) & the Striker helmet. Both will become operational on block 8 aircraft in 2008, which features additional improvements as well. Of course the Typhoon can't compete in terms of range or payload and its flexibility in the AG role is limited as well for the moment, but these are not the only factors which make a combat aircraft. A lot depends on the requirements.

Care to elaborate on that one.
Show me a single F-22 which is able to carry so much stuff like that F-15E:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f15_04-load.jpg

No aircraft is the best in every area. Every type has its tradeoffs for other features!
 

Thumper

Banned Member
Once again generations have NOTHING to do with capabilities and technologies involved! The 4.5 gen is pure marketing BS created by the russians and maybe the americans too!
To bad your opinion is not shared by others. Suggest you do a bit of research.
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0182.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_generation_jet_fighter

Generations have everything to do with capabilites. They allow you to group AC of similar effectivess. Within generations it is possible to argue which AC is better. When comparing between generations the difference in capability is so great that the earlier generation is for all intents and purposes obsolete.

No aircraft will be delivered to SK in the next 24 month from a new deal
No but that is the AC that will be bought.

initial AG capabilities. The only things missing is full PIRATE (currently only with limited functions available) & the Striker helmet.
You mean tiffy is still under development.

Show me a single F-22 which is able to carry so much stuff like that F-15E:
No it cannot carry standoff A2G weapons but it need not carry them due to stealth.
 

rabs

New Member
No it cannot carry standoff A2G weapons but it need not carry them due to stealth.
A supersonic high altitude released JDAM can almost be considerd stand off, especially when launched from a stealthy platform.
 

120mm goodness

New Member
To bad your opinion is not shared by others. Suggest you do a bit of research.
{links removed}

Generations have everything to do with capabilites. ....

I suggest you actually read your links before you post them: "...This scheme is not official by any means, and I do not believe it has ever been used to classify other types of aircraft. In tracing the origins of this terminology, I've actually found that it was quite limited in its application."
 

Thumper

Banned Member
A supersonic high altitude released JDAM can almost be considerd stand off, especially when launched from a stealthy platform.
Good point.

I suggest you actually read your links before you post them:
But I did. Your reply is pointless. The author is stating the obvious. There is no "official" body that defines generations in AC types. So what. It is a logical grouping of AC that people have come to accept. The grouping is roughly based on vintage as well as general capabilites of the AC.

That said the proof is in the pudding. Legacy 4.5 gen AC such as the Eurofighter really would not have much of a chance against a true 5th gen AC like Raptor or JSF. Sure once in a while you could get lucky but over all (forget DERA, it is dated and uses innacurate data) a Eurofighter force going against a 5th force or even a 4.5 gen force supported by 5th gen fighters stands no chance.
 

jaffo4011

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #46
Good point.



But I did. Your reply is pointless. The author is stating the obvious. There is no "official" body that defines generations in AC types. So what. It is a logical grouping of AC that people have come to accept. The grouping is roughly based on vintage as well as general capabilites of the AC.

That said the proof is in the pudding. Legacy 4.5 gen AC such as the Eurofighter really would not have much of a chance against a true 5th gen AC like Raptor or JSF. Sure once in a while you could get lucky but over all (forget DERA, it is dated and uses innacurate data) a Eurofighter force going against a 5th force or even a 4.5 gen force supported by 5th gen fighters stands no chance.
really thumper???....read on and try not to get too upset about the proof in the pudding in this....

Just got a copy of International Air Power Review, Volume 20. It has an excellent article on the Eurofighter Typhoon and the real surprise came for me while reading the second page of the article (page 45 of the magazine). Typhoon has deployed to the US for tests by the Operational Evaluation Unit (OEU), presumably from England. In skirmishes with the F-22A, the Typhoon dominated the Within Visual Range engagements and apparently this really didn't surprise anyone because Typhoon is known for having outstanding agility. When it scored a radar lock on the F-22A at Beyond Visual Range, that caused quite a stir.
 
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120mm goodness

New Member
Your reply is pointless. The author is stating the obvious. There is no "official" body that defines generations in AC types. So what. It is a logical grouping of AC that people have come to accept. The grouping is roughly based on vintage as well as general capabilites of the AC.
You can only say that if you have never tried to actually work out what generation each aircraft fits neatly into. In the real world it rapidly becomes very messy to the extent that it is really quite meaningless and it becomes easier to talk about capabilities than generations. For instance; F-111 has to be placed in the same "generation" as the F-14 and F-15, as the F-14 was ordered as an alternative to the F-111B to fill the same slot. However the F-111 was eventually replaced by the F-15 - which renders the whole generation thing meaningless if a 4th generation fighter can be replaced by another 4th generation fighter at the end of it's life. Of course you could always shift the F-111 to the 3rd generation, in which case it becomes very difficult to justify the F-14 being 4th generation. Which is why people start using further subdivisions like "4.5 generation", in which case why not "4.75 generation" or "4.9 generation". :D

That said the proof is in the pudding. Legacy 4.5 gen AC such as the Eurofighter really would not have much of a chance against a true 5th gen AC like Raptor or JSF. Sure once in a while you could get lucky but over all (forget DERA, it is dated and uses innacurate data) a Eurofighter force going against a 5th force or even a 4.5 gen force supported by 5th gen fighters stands no chance.
What you are claiming is that an upgraded F-15, F-16, Flanker or Fulcrum would suffer no significant disadvantage against a Typhoon and that ONLY true all-aspect stealth provides any real advantage over those aircraft. You'd better prey that you're right because your potential adversaries have been playing with bi/multi-static radars and long-wavelength radars for years, trying to find ways of tracking stealth aircraft. If these technologies work then the F-22 is going to be in a heap of trouble if it has to rely on speed/altitude/manueverability like a Typhoon.
 

hybrid

New Member
really thumper???....read on and try not to get too upset.....

Just got a copy of International Air Power Review, Volume 20. It has an excellent article on the Eurofighter Typhoon and the real surprise came for me while reading the second page of the article (page 45 of the magazine). Typhoon has deployed to the US for tests by the Operational Evaluation Unit (OEU), presumably from England. In skirmishes with the F-22A, the Typhoon dominated the Within Visual Range engagements and apparently this really didn't surprise anyone because Typhoon is known for having outstanding agility. When it scored a radar lock on the F-22A at Beyond Visual Range, that caused quite a stir.

In a previous post here, on a scale of 1 to 10, the Raptor scored a 10, Typhoon scored 4.5 and Rafale scored 1.0 while the F-15 and F-16 scored less than 1 (but not my much ... F-15 got .8+ as I recall). The above mentioned success of Typhoon against the Raptor has me wondering how Raptor can score so high, unless its major strength is what it can do in Beyond Visual Range engagements. Gvien that Typhoon dominated the engagements Within Visual Range, is Raptor over-rated as a close in air superiority fighter?
Probably not as those numbers in your second paragraph are from the disputed DERA study. As for other statements, if I remember correctly the Block 5 variants are the only ones that really have a usable air-ground strike package and are being retrofitted for the current tranche 1 batch the RAF has. How this particular package compares to an F-15 export variant strike package I wouldn't be able to tell.
 

jaffo4011

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #49
hybrid,i dont know re that either.....ive removed the 2nd paragraph as i did nt mean to include it anyway.the first paragraph was my message to thumper......
 

Thumper

Banned Member
Just got a copy of International Air Power Review, Volume 20. It has an excellent article on the Eurofighter Typhoon and the real surprise came for me while reading the second page of the article (page 45 of the magazine). Typhoon has deployed to the US for tests by the Operational Evaluation Unit (OEU), presumably from England. In skirmishes with the F-22A, the Typhoon dominated the Within Visual Range engagements and apparently this really didn't surprise anyone because Typhoon is known for having outstanding agility. When it scored a radar lock on the F-22A at Beyond Visual Range, that caused quite a stir.
What a scoop IAPR has! Such wonderful news I wonder why the Eurofighter website or the BAE website or no other source on the web reported it. How come it only comes up as old debunked rumors on websites like these. Maybe that IAPR author was lazy and took for fact what was indeed Internet chatter. Just for a minute think.

Tiffie's FCS and radar is just now becoming operational for A2A why would they have DACT before the plane can even compete in mock combat.
http://www.flightglobal.com/article...but-with-royal-air-force-squadron-firing.html

Lets just say that this still indevelopment radar made it to a Tiffie that just happened to have DACT with an F-22. Consider the statement by a fighter pilot who actually did perform against the Raptor.

""Pilots from the 65th and 64th AS, including exchange pilots from the Royal Australian Air Force and Royal Air Force, of Australia and England respectfully, expressed their frustration related to flying against the stealthy F-22.

"The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th AS. "It's the most frustrated I've ever been."

According to Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, aggressor pilots turned up the heat on the F-22 using tactics they believe to be modern threats. For security purposes these tactics weren't released; nonetheless, they said their efforts against the Raptors were fruitless. ""

http://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123041725

Yeah it got radar lock, sure.

However the F-111 was eventually replaced by the F-15 -
No it was never replaced by the HIGHLY MODIFIED F-15E. It was supplemented by them. Once the cold war threat seemed to be gone the F-111s where consighed to the boneyard because the airframes where younger, and the logistics where better.

What you are claiming is that an upgraded F-15, F-16, Flanker or Fulcrum would suffer no significant disadvantage against a Typhoon
Actually I would put the Block II Rhino and the SU-30MKI ahead of it.

Further, at this stage of development when you take in to account what is actually fielded in the Tiffy (Rafale has the same problem) an F-15C that does not get ambushed should have no trouble with it. Now if it gets all the things that they plan to upgrade it with and if it all works as advertised Tiffy makes a decent 4.5 gen ac.
 

120mm goodness

New Member
Tiffie's FCS and radar is just now becoming operational for A2A why would they have DACT before the plane can even compete in mock combat.
The ASRAAM firing was related to the frontline squadron reaching another milestone, nothing to do with the engineering development side of things.

Lets just say that this still indevelopment radar made it to a Tiffie that just happened to have DACT with an F-22. Consider the statement by a fighter pilot who actually did perform against the Raptor.

""Pilots from the 65th and 64th AS, including exchange pilots from the Royal Australian Air Force and Royal Air Force, of Australia and England respectfully, expressed their frustration related to flying against the stealthy F-22.

"The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th AS. "It's the most frustrated I've ever been."

According to Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, aggressor pilots turned up the heat on the F-22 using tactics they believe to be modern threats. For security purposes these tactics weren't released; nonetheless, they said their efforts against the Raptors were fruitless. ""
They were flying F-15s & F-16s, NOT Typhoons (EXCHANGE pilots to the 65th and 64th), though I accept that CAPTOR is unlikly to be able to track the F-22 at useful ranges at this time.

No it was never replaced by the HIGHLY MODIFIED F-15E...
That would still mean that the HIGHLY MODIFIED F-15 should be called a 4.5gen fighter by your system, which would make the Typhoon what?

...It was supplemented by them. Once the cold war threat seemed to be gone the F-111s where consighed to the boneyard because the airframes where younger, and the logistics where better.
Hmmm, so the F-15E was brought into service to "fill the gap" between the lightweight F-16 and the heavy F-111, but ended up replacing the F-111. Not a lot of difference really, the 4th generation F-111 was still replaced by the 4th generation F-15E in practise, whatever the intentions. But if you dont like that example, what about the F/A-18E/F which is a 4.5 generation fighter (by your system) replacing a 4th generation F-14?

Actually I would put the Block II Rhino and the SU-30MKI ahead of it.

Further, at this stage of development when you take in to account what is actually fielded in the Tiffy (Rafale has the same problem) an F-15C that does not get ambushed should have no trouble with it. Now if it gets all the things that they plan to upgrade it with and if it all works as advertised Tiffy makes a decent 4.5 gen ac.
So you don't think that altitude, speed and maneuverability provide any advantage then? What about towed radar decoys, mmw-based MWS, link 16 and sensor fusion?
 

Thumper

Banned Member
The ASRAAM firing was related to the frontline squadron reaching another milestone, nothing to do with the engineering development side of things.
I stand by what I wrote the Tiffy is just now becoming operational. In fact it still really is not fully operational oand as someone pointed out in another thread in this forum the plane is very much still under development.

though I accept that CAPTOR is unlikly to be able to track the F-22 at useful ranges at this time.
So what is your point. Everything points to the story being false. Even if Tiffy had a chance at close range it is a moot argument. Raptor would empty the sky of tiffie long before WVR.
4th generation F-15E in practise, whatever the intentions. But if you dont like that example, what about the F/A-18E/F which is a 4.5 generation fighter (by your system) replacing a 4th generation F-14?
F-15E is a heavily modified F-15 and is considered by most to be the first 4.5 gen fighter/bomber. Calling the F-111 a fighter would be charitable at best. It was first and foremost a bomber.

Mod edit: I'd watch the racist overtones my friend if you have any desire to continue to post here. AD.

So you don't think that altitude, speed and maneuverability provide any advantage then? What about towed radar decoys, mmw-based MWS, link 16 and sensor fusion?
Well first off there are planes that outperform tiffy already, but no raw performance really has much less significance than it used to have. You are right about everything you listed .. towed radar decoys, mmw-based MWS, link 16 and sensor fusion, add AESA, a modicum of signature management, the ability to carry a large range of stores, the best BVE missile in the world (AIM120D), etc. But I have two questions for you. What makes you think other 4.5 and 5 th gen fighters do not have some or all of these toyes and what makes you think tiffy has naywhere near all of them now?
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Mod edit: It's been taken care of. Get back on topic guys. Discussing whether F-15 or Eurofighter is a better aircraft for South Korea. Cheers. AD.
 
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Thumper

Banned Member
Read whatever you want in to it. Now do you have anything to add to the discussion or are you just going to go on playing 20 questions Waylander?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
That's the way to write in a forum.
Write down some dubious sentences and then don't explain them...
 

Thumper

Banned Member
Aside from the misspelling if you are profocoent in English it is pretty clear what I wrote.

Is it true only defence professionals can come in to a thread the way you did and hijack it?

If you think I said something dubious then refute it. If you have nothing to add to the thread get lost.
 

120mm goodness

New Member
I stand by what I wrote the Tiffy is just now becoming operational. In fact it still really is not fully operational oand as someone pointed out in another thread in this forum the plane is very much still under development.
It was your point? You were trying to make it sound as if the Typhoon had a barely functional radar and basic A2A systems, despite these systems being fully available at this time. I point out that you were reading more into your source than is warrented and you point out the obvious that the RAF squadrons are just becoming fully operational. Strange as it might seem to you, but even the mighty F-22 needs to have it's systems cleared by the engineers and test pilots before they're made available to the frontline squadrons.

So what is your point. Everything points to the story being false. Even if Tiffy had a chance at close range it is a moot argument. Raptor would empty the sky of tiffie long before WVR.
There are three possibilities; one is that it is simply not true, the 2nd is that the Typhoon DID detect the F-22 in the air, either by luck or because the F-22's stealth was temporarily degraded at the time (external pylons, open weapon bays, additional reflectors added for navigational purposes...). The 3rd (least likly) is that they added a prototype bi-static radar capability to the Typhoons radar, which is theoretically possible, but unlikly given the state of the art at this time. None the less your evidence to PROVE that the Typhoon couldn't track the F-22 was based on the F-15 and F-16 being unable to track it, which amounts to nothing.

The trouble with your "Raptor would empty the sky of tiffie before WVR" scenario is that it depends on AMRAAM overcoming the MWS and the TRDs, despite the fact that they're designed specifically to decoy AMRAAM class home-on-jam capable missiles. Also that your F-22s are so expensive that to make the scenario fair you have to have 2:5 ratio of F-22s to Typhoons. Also it would be advisable (if you want to put your F-22s into a scenario which will actually challenge them to the limit) to provide the Typhoon side with at least ground-based stealth-detecting radar infomation provided to them by datalink. Only then will we actually see if the F-22s are actually worth the money.

F-15E is a heavily modified F-15 and is considered by most to be the first 4.5 gen fighter/bomber. Calling the F-111 a fighter would be charitable at best. It was first and foremost a bomber.

Anyway what is your point. Never have I seen someone argue so much on something so meanlingless and be so wrong. Are you German?
I am trying to show that your "generation" concept is very difficult to sustain and that the real world is significantly more messy. Stamping "4.5" in big letters on the Typhoon, F-15K and Super Hornet and "5.0" in big GOLD letters on the F-22 does not really tell us any thing about their respective capabilities. It doesn't tell us whether F-22 will prove to be cost effective in 10 years time, and it doesn't tell us which will provide a more cost effective counter to a hostile airforce flying advanced Flanker and Fulcrums now.

Well first off there are planes that outperform tiffy already, but no raw performance really has much less significance than it used to have. You are right about everything you listed .. towed radar decoys, mmw-based MWS, link 16 and sensor fusion, add AESA, a modicum of signature management, the ability to carry a large range of stores, the best BVE missile in the world (AIM120D), etc. But I have two questions for you. What makes you think other 4.5 and 5 th gen fighters do not have some or all of these toyes and what makes you think tiffy has naywhere near all of them now?
I think you're proceeding from a misunderstanding, I'm NOT claiming that the Typhoon has an advantage over the opposition of anything like the same magnitude as F-22. But I am claiming that it is still the 2nd best, though the advantage is much smaller. The fundamental advantage it possesses is the ability of launch AMRAAM from higher altitude and speed than was normal for previous fighters, and the ability to turn away faster while maintaining more speed and altitude.
Most previous fighters cannot fly faster than about Mach 1.8 or higher than about 50-55,000' when carrying a normal air-air missile load (whatever their published clean figures say). They also become very stable in pitch at supersonic speeds and their agility, while good at subsonic speeds, was consequently very limited during a supersonic dash.
Typhoon is regarded as being clean when carrying 4 MRM and 2 SRM, and can reach Mach 2.0 and up to 60-65,000' in that condition. It is also so unstable when subsonic, that it only becomes conventionally stable when supersonic (as the center of lift moves rearward) consequently it is still able to maneuver without suffering significant drag. This should make it 2nd only to the F-22 with regard to combat flight performance. I regard this as being a useful advantage in combat.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I never intended to hijack a thread. I also never asked for the title or used it as an excuse.

I just questioned this because it is obvious that he is a brit (due to his profile) and so your sentence looks like you want to say that germans tend to argue meaningless while being terribly wrong about topics.

If I am wrong I apologize and if not I don't understand why you should have such an opinion.
 

Thumper

Banned Member
The trouble with your "Raptor would empty the sky of tiffie before WVR" scenario is that it depends on AMRAAM overcoming the MWS and the TRDs, despite the fact that they're designed specifically to decoy AMRAAM class home-on-jam capable missiles.
First off lets be specific about what you are talking about since so much of Tiffies supposed capabilities are planned improvments and are not yet in production. MWS and TRDs? Second you better do some research on AMRAAM. The later models (already fielded) are acknowledged to be extremely jam resistant. While no one is publishing KP it is thought to be on the order of 75% against modern targets.

Also that your F-22s are so expensive that to make the scenario fair you have to have 2:5 ratio of F-22s to Typhoons.
Meaningless, aside from direct engagements they are also meant to be used as force multipliers for 4.5 gen AC. That said build cost for later Raptors is about $110 million, vs Tiffies 80 - 90 million. I think there is a problem with your math.


Also it would be advisable (if you want to put your F-22s into a scenario which will actually challenge them to the limit) to provide the Typhoon side with at least ground-based stealth-detecting radar infomation provided to them by datalink.
No such thing would be encountered in real life so unless you want to provide marketing material for the manufacturer that fools people like you what would be the point.

Stamping "4.5" in big letters on the Typhoon, F-15K and Super Hornet and "5.0" in big GOLD letters on the F-22 does not really tell us any thing about their respective capabilities.
Yes it does but people like you either cannot accept it or do not understand it. It means that all things being equal the gen 5 fighter has capablities so much in excess of a 4.5 or 4th gen fighter that it will likely win any engagement between the two and dominate the skies of an airforce that does not have 5th gen fighters.

But I am claiming that it is still the 2nd best, though the advantage is much smaller. The fundamental advantage it possesses is the ability of launch AMRAAM from higher altitude and speed than was normal for previous fighters, and the ability to turn away faster while maintaining more speed and altitude.
First off any difference in performance between an Eagle or a Flanker and tiffie is minor at best. Fact is an eagle can cruise at transonic speeds all day long. Tiffies ability to marginally supercruise for short periods of time can no way compare to the Eagles long term (just do some research on fuel carried and turbofans)speed advantage at 45k feet.

Most previous fighters cannot fly faster than about Mach 1.8 or higher than about 50-55,000' when carrying a normal air-air missile load
F-15 can. It's one of the things that distinguish it from the F-16. It is optimised for high altitude combat. Again a little research on your part would be helpful. Do you relaise we are not talking about tiffies marginal ability to supercruise we are now talking about using AB, hence using up lots of gas real quick.

Typhoon is regarded as being clean when carrying 4 MRM and 2 SRM, and can reach Mach 2.0 and up to 60-65,000' in that condition.
Not for long enough to matter. Hello, study after study was doen when AC where being produced that routinely broke M2. They found out that 99.9 percent of the air combat took place at subsonic speeds.

This should make it 2nd only to the F-22 with regard to combat flight performance.
Overall F-15 and Flankers meet or exceed tiffies flight performance.

I regard this as being a useful advantage in combat.
But so many others do not. Try AESA. Try AIM120D. Try lo, try wide variety of weapons carriage. We could make the list longer but some of the things I would mention you will claim tiffie may get in the next 10 years

Sorry for A2A top 4 AC flying today are as follows:
F-22
F/A-18 Block II
SU-30MKI/F-15 Upgrades
Tiffy.

F-35 will also be superior in A2A since Tiffy won;t be able to see it.

I also wonder why Europeans spent so much money on an AC that is about to be relegated to 2nd line status also.
 

Thumper

Banned Member
Mod edit: I'd watch the racist overtones my friend if you have any desire to continue to post here. AD.
Now I remember why I stopped posting on your forum. You are just a bit too quick on the gun with your censorship. Remember how you killed theTaiwan thread? Since when is asking if someone is German (hell the queen of england is of German decent) racist.

Mod edit: I'm sorry you feel this way. Your question implied that because he IS German that THIS is responsible for his "meaningless questions" as you termed them. Perhaps discriminatory is a word that describes it more accurately, but in either case it's something we will not tolerate at DT. If you disagree with that, well it's up to you mate... AD.
 
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