Croatian Armed Forces
- Thread starter NZLAV
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RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
Well...
Google is always your best bet:
http://www.vojska.net/eng/armed-forces/croatia/
Contains Histories Organisation Equipment etc etc, some of its dated but a order of battle is somewhat complete as of 2004, a slightly amature but rather large set of details.
Google is always your best bet:
http://www.vojska.net/eng/armed-forces/croatia/
Contains Histories Organisation Equipment etc etc, some of its dated but a order of battle is somewhat complete as of 2004, a slightly amature but rather large set of details.
Im a Croatian. Army is at the moment going throw reorganizations. For years after the war we have not recive any major upgrade program or any new items due to a harsh economic situation and raped privatization in whitch more economy was destroyed than because of the war.robsta83 said:
Croatian armed forces are in the state of reorganization in profesional army.
At the moment.
Croatia doesnt have aviation ( few Mig-21 operational I think 3 or so)
- at the moment we are in a state of eveluating Jas-39 Gripen or Duch used F-16. max 12 will be bought
- Croatia doses have some navy whitch is mainly rocket gun boats left from former Yugoslavia and some amphibious ships but basicly our defence budget doesent have money for the gas so mostly ships stay in naval bases and root.
Croatia doesnt have antiair defences above 6000m - perhaps Igla or Strela missiles and some antiaircraft guns - even German Flak 88 from ww2.
Tank forces are in dissorey - mainly older T-55 tanks whitch are planed to be deccomisioned. Croatia developt Degman basicly T-72 upgrade program with ERA, french electronic, 120mm smoothbore gun, 1200 engine but Croatian govrement decided not to buy any so program is being cencelled.
There is at the moment plan to accuire 126 APC and two EU counties are in competition.
I think Austrian Pandur and some Sweden.
Well MOD recently announced plans for reorganization and modernization of armed forces by 2015.
The new plan foresees reduction to 16000 professional soldiers and 2000 civilian employees.
Army plans to acquire new assault rifle, new SAW, new machinegun, new communication equipment, 126 new IFV (Patria AMV/Pandur2), new artillery fire control systems, M-84 MBT modernization, SA-16 MANPAD modernization, SA-13 modernization… All T-55 tanks will be scraped…
After reorganization army will have:
-72 M-84 MBT
-3 T-72 MBT
-126 wheeled IFV
-74 M-80 tracked IFV
-16 M-80A (modernized anti-tank variant)
-12 SA-13 CRO
Air forces plans to replace old MiG-21 whit 12 new fighters (probably JAS-39 ore F-16) and are currently acquiring 12 Mi -171 helicopters from Russia. Majority of Mi-8s are modernized in Romania and will be kept in service…
After reorganization they will have:
- 12 multi role fighters
- 15 Mi-8 MTV-1 helicopters
- 12 Mi- 171 helicopters
- 8 Bell 206B helicopters
- 20 PC-9M trainers
- 2 An-32 transports
- 4 CL-415
Navy plans to procure 4 OPV but that will depend on available founds
After reorganization navy will have:
- 3 FAC
- 4 Mirna class patrol boats
- 4 OPV ?
- 1 mine hunter
- 2 “Cetina” class LST
- 13 small noncombatant ships of different types
The new plan foresees reduction to 16000 professional soldiers and 2000 civilian employees.
Army plans to acquire new assault rifle, new SAW, new machinegun, new communication equipment, 126 new IFV (Patria AMV/Pandur2), new artillery fire control systems, M-84 MBT modernization, SA-16 MANPAD modernization, SA-13 modernization… All T-55 tanks will be scraped…
After reorganization army will have:
-72 M-84 MBT
-3 T-72 MBT
-126 wheeled IFV
-74 M-80 tracked IFV
-16 M-80A (modernized anti-tank variant)
-12 SA-13 CRO
Air forces plans to replace old MiG-21 whit 12 new fighters (probably JAS-39 ore F-16) and are currently acquiring 12 Mi -171 helicopters from Russia. Majority of Mi-8s are modernized in Romania and will be kept in service…
After reorganization they will have:
- 12 multi role fighters
- 15 Mi-8 MTV-1 helicopters
- 12 Mi- 171 helicopters
- 8 Bell 206B helicopters
- 20 PC-9M trainers
- 2 An-32 transports
- 4 CL-415
Navy plans to procure 4 OPV but that will depend on available founds
After reorganization navy will have:
- 3 FAC
- 4 Mirna class patrol boats
- 4 OPV ?
- 1 mine hunter
- 2 “Cetina” class LST
- 13 small noncombatant ships of different types
contedicavour
New Member
I would only add you have 3 mobile batteries of RBS-15 SSMs on trucks ... by the way, one question : what plans are there regarding pocket submarines ? The Velebit was quite an advanced mini-SSK with a significan export potential.isthvan said:
cheers
Unfortunately, Velebit will be sold or scrapped, and there will be no more submarines in the Croatian navy, atleast not for 10 years...
But I have to say one thing...All or the majority of capital investments in our army will be budgeted from our national GDP, and therefore, they are not included in this survey. This includes new multirole planes, new OPVs and just about everything bigger then a tank
.
This I had to say because some other things are being evalueted, as a new, bigger minehunter, additional small minehunters and so on... So, this survey is not the most precise information on the future of croatian armed forces, and should be taken only as a proposal, what it actully is.
Dutch used F-16 are probably out of the picture. It's new F-16 vs new JAS-39 Gripenm but eventually, who knows?
I think that also is being scrapped...
But I have to say one thing...All or the majority of capital investments in our army will be budgeted from our national GDP, and therefore, they are not included in this survey. This includes new multirole planes, new OPVs and just about everything bigger then a tank
.This I had to say because some other things are being evalueted, as a new, bigger minehunter, additional small minehunters and so on... So, this survey is not the most precise information on the future of croatian armed forces, and should be taken only as a proposal, what it actully is.
Dutch used F-16 are probably out of the picture. It's new F-16 vs new JAS-39 Gripenm but eventually, who knows?
contedicavour
New Member
It's a shame that the Velebit is being scrapped. In today's world of asymmetrical warfare, guerrillas and terrorism, a compact mini-SSK capable of attacking enemy harbours, or , on the contrary, of helping defend our harbours, would have been a very valuable asset.Ragusian said:Unfortunately, Velebit will be sold or scrapped, and there will be no more submarines in the Croatian navy, atleast not for 10 years...
I think that also is being scrapped...
But I have to say one thing...All or the majority of capital investments in our army will be budgeted from our national GDP, and therefore, they are not included in this survey. This includes new multirole planes, new OPVs and just about everything bigger then a tank
This I had to say because some other things are being evalueted, as a new, bigger minehunter, additional small minehunters and so on... So, this survey is not the most precise information on the future of croatian armed forces, and should be taken only as a proposal, what it actully is.
Dutch used F-16 are probably out of the picture. It's new F-16 vs new JAS-39 Gripenm but eventually, who knows?
Regarding your air force, if you are looking mostly for a valid air defence fighter, frankly the F16ADF is perfect with its AIM120Bs. In Italy we use 34 from US stocks and we are happy with it. Although of course the F16s don't stand a chance against the Typhoons we are gradually putting in service (some 20 are operational so far).
Last but not least, as soon as you have news on the specifications for the OPVs, let me know.
cheers
True, very true. But, as I have said, in 10 years, you might see a new mini-SSK being built in Croatia. Or bought.
I was actually cheering for the no-airfoce option for our armed forces, hoping it would increase naval wing of the military, which I think is of the greatest needs to our country, especially those OPVs.
contedicavour
New Member
You did have some MI-24s to patrol the coastline, if I remember correctly. I guess they will be replaced by the modernized MI-8s/17s you mentioned above. If your government invests in those 12 fighters, your Navy could still take on the cheap second-hand AB-212ASW helos from the Italian Navy as the new NH-90s arrive. Later on, if your government funds the acquisition, NH90s would be the best choice for ASUW and ASW and CSAR or simple serch&rescue missions. Most of Europe has bought or are buying them.Ragusian said:
cheers
contedicavour
New Member
Well there are also several SH-3Ds around. We've got a dozen mothballed ASH-3Ds that have been replaced by EH-101, I know the Royal Navy also have several. Your coastline is huge, very very long, and hard to patrol if there aren't enough airborne assets. May be the Interior Ministry or police should ask the EU for transfers of second hand coastal patrol helos. In Italy when we are short of budget it's sometimes the Ministry of Interior, sometimes Ministry of Industry, sometimes civilian police who buy the equipment which is then turned to the armed forces for operations. Good luck !isthvan said:
cheers
More than 5500 km long, to be precise
. And just a couple of old ships to patrol it...I'll tell you what happened a few months ago... A dozen or so illegal immigrants, I think they were from palestine, were cought by a croatian police boat just a few hundread meters from port of Dubrovnik, in vicinity of the island Daksa, in a small wooden fishing boat. They came almost unnoticed!!! Could you belive that, and imagine if those were terrorists! And the only thing that gave them away was the fact that they have forgotten to raise croatian flag, which is why they attracted attention, and were stopped by the police boat already mentioned
contedicavour
New Member
Oh yes we're familiar with that... Lampedusa island (south of Sicily) receives hundreds of immigrants every week in the summer months. You definitively need helos and patrol boats, though for this purpose I'd take several smaller patrol boats such as our 90-tonne Bigliani which are also quite fast (42kn) and cost approx 10 million euro each fully equipped. A larger but slower OPV wouldn't be able to stop smuggling boats carrying people or weapons or drugs, etcRagusian said:More than 5500 km long, to be precise
I'll tell you what happened a few months ago... A dozen or so illegal immigrants, I think they were from palestine, were cought by a croatian police boat just a few hundread meters from port of Dubrovnik, in vicinity of the island Daksa, in a small wooden fishing boat. They came almost unnoticed!!! Could you belive that, and imagine if those were terrorists! And the only thing that gave them away was the fact that they have forgotten to raise croatian flag, which is why they attracted attention, and were stopped by the police boat already mentioned
cheers
It may well be so, but we are short of any ASW toys now(sometimes I think we have no navy at all
), and possibly the cheapest way of getting it would be to buy secund-hand ASW helos. I'm saying this because I doubt that the OPVs or anything else will be made with ASW in mind...I was somewhat dissapointed when plans were made public about what direction our army is focusing in the upcoming years. Surely, a couple of MiG-21 jets could be made flightworthy to last untill 2015, thus opening a way for more naval assets to be bought in the 2006-2015 period. We lack proper(in fact, we lack any) ASW, have no offshore vessels of any kind, with the excpetion of 2 non-combat ships, each being to slow and to old to serve as a decent OPV.
I say, we give navy more money, and wait to see if we would, by any chance, possibly be given the opportunity to buy some F-35 jets as off 2015. If not, we could always buy gripens, they'll still be there...
I must agree that I was also somewhat disappointed whit obvious lack of understanding of navy’s needs in this plan…
Only we don’t agree about navy needs… While we seriously lack ASW capabilities we realistically don’t have need for it. I mean it would be nice to have proper navy but currently founds are joust to limited…
What navy currently need are small modern patrol boats supplemented by two or three OPV´s and supported by helicopters… Anything else would be joust wasting of limited founds and resources…
Basically navy should replace 4 “Mirna” class ships whit 6-8 patrol boats similar to those that we are building for Libya, build 1-2 OPV and acquire 4 - 6 helicopters (something like A-109 version for USCG or similar second hand helicopters). I know that the navy would be more of a coast guard then navy but that is what we currently need…
Later when additional founds become available start replacing three FAC whit something more capable. Since I personally think that Swedish ore Finish naval doctrine is ideal for Croatia I’m cheering for something similar to “Visby” class… Relatively small multi role corvettes…
Only we don’t agree about navy needs… While we seriously lack ASW capabilities we realistically don’t have need for it. I mean it would be nice to have proper navy but currently founds are joust to limited…
What navy currently need are small modern patrol boats supplemented by two or three OPV´s and supported by helicopters… Anything else would be joust wasting of limited founds and resources…
Basically navy should replace 4 “Mirna” class ships whit 6-8 patrol boats similar to those that we are building for Libya, build 1-2 OPV and acquire 4 - 6 helicopters (something like A-109 version for USCG or similar second hand helicopters). I know that the navy would be more of a coast guard then navy but that is what we currently need…
Later when additional founds become available start replacing three FAC whit something more capable. Since I personally think that Swedish ore Finish naval doctrine is ideal for Croatia I’m cheering for something similar to “Visby” class… Relatively small multi role corvettes…
Ragusian said:It may well be so, but we are short of any ASW toys now(sometimes I think we have no navy at all
I was somewhat dissapointed when plans were made public about what direction our army is focusing in the upcoming years. Surely, a couple of MiG-21 jets could be made flightworthy to last untill 2015, thus opening a way for more naval assets to be bought in the 2006-2015 period. We lack proper(in fact, we lack any) ASW, have no offshore vessels of any kind, with the excpetion of 2 non-combat ships, each being to slow and to old to serve as a decent OPV.
I say, we give navy more money, and wait to see if we would, by any chance, possibly be given the opportunity to buy some F-35 jets as off 2015. If not, we could always buy gripens, they'll still be there...
F-35 jets at the moment cost 118M. How do you think our country can afford it. Not a chance. Mig-29SMT or even Gripen would be nice.
Also we dont have any air defence sistems - and that is nessesity. Some Igla/Strela missiles are only enough to repel helicopter.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
As an "export" customer to a US or US-led programme you don't pay for the development cost as they would be sunk by the US and partner nations.Viktor said:
There is a FMS fee and other costs related to it, though.
AUPC for the expensive F-35B is currently slightly above 60 million $ mark. And the price recently quoted to the Norwegian government for the F-35A was less than 50 million $...
Well I hope that air force will choose JAS-39. They are perfect solution for our needs thanks to easy maintenance and low operating costs. MiG-29 SMT is quite capable and relatively cheep solution but it has high operation costs and expensive and demanding maintenance… So at long run JAS-39 is much better solution…Viktor said:
Regarding air defenses there is no immediate threat that would justify urgent purchase… Air force is currently installing new air control radars(AN/FPS - 117) and whit new fighters we will have pretty good integrated air defense system…
Since air force will provide air policing and air control and SAM isn’t too useful for those tasks IMHO air forces choose best solution for currant situation…
Incorporating more capable SAM in that system shouldn’t be too complicated (when founds become available).
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I said starting with 2015. Not now. And in 2015 our GDP will be higher and, possibly, F-35 prices should, maybe, just maybe, go down
.Agreed on the SMT vs. Gripen issue. The MiG was never an option, really. But I do think we should reconsider the gripen. It's not a bad plane, but after seeing some rafale costs quotes, it comes pretty close to gripen, while having 2 engines, a bigger load, range and smaller RCS. And I believe the difference in price is not that big that we could not afford it, atleast in a 5-6 years...
Limited beacuse some nerds in the MoD came to think that we can act as a superpower, buying new planes without much need. Atleast the option of having a few MiGs to fly air patrols untill 2015 could have been made, by which time more money would be in our treasury.
And I think you'll agree with me that the navy should came second to land forces, if not even first in priority.
Yes, Visby-s would be nice. But just a little bigger, please