Yeah, only about 16k deaths to date comparable with nearby Texas but five times that in Alabama.
oldsig.
Covid-19 pandemic & Fake News - How you can help
- Thread starter AustinPowers
- Start date
oldsig.
Total number of deaths isn't the best measure. Deaths in proportion to population is better.
Deaths per million population:
Florida 750
Georgia 723
Texas 607
Alabama 572
USA 682
For comparison -
Spain 732
UK 647
Italy 607
France 519
Germany 119
I don't see Florida as having managed the virus particularly well. More deaths than the US average, or the major European countries.
But if you look at new cases Texas is doing much worse than Florida, & so's Alabama.
Deaths per million population:
Florida 750
Georgia 723
Texas 607
Alabama 572
USA 682
For comparison -
Spain 732
UK 647
Italy 607
France 519
Germany 119
I don't see Florida as having managed the virus particularly well. More deaths than the US average, or the major European countries.
But if you look at new cases Texas is doing much worse than Florida, & so's Alabama.
Atlantic Realm
New Member
Look, virus is gonna virus. Mark 2020 as the year ‘experts’ decided to pretend we could hide from a submicroscopic particle for which person-to-person is just one potential vector. And guess what ? You’ve been breathing Covid all year ... and you’re still alive!
@Atlantic Realm
Dismissing COVID-19 as something we just have to live with (suggesting it is essentially a non-event) flies in the face the growing understanding of the bug, the action being taken to control it and the impact it has had on many lives. You need to drop this topic as I suspect it will divert the thread off topic and the comments are contentious in any case.
Regards
Alexsa
Atlantic Realm
New Member
In this Brave New World wash your hands, stay home if sick and protect the frail elderly is tin foil hat territory.
The Forum doesn't tolerate fake news and false narratives. At the present time this could also be classified as a political statement given the posters location and politics are forbidden on the forum. Any more such incidents from you will result in Moderator action. Consider this as an adjunct to the second warning that you have managed to accumulate in the space of two posts made within 6 minutes. Not a good look for your continued stay here especially as you have attracted the attention of two of the three grumpiest Moderators on here.
1. Rubbish. Florida’s death toll of 16,544 people from CORVID-19 is higher than Germany (9,960 deaths), South Korea (455 deaths), NZ (25 deaths), and Singapore (28 deaths) combined.
2. In Florida there have been 771,780 cases of coronavirus since March, according to the Florida Department of Health. On 23 Oct 2020, the weekly case average increased to about 3,335 coronavirus cases announced per day. Therefore, Florida at 750 deaths per million due to CORVID-19 is incompetent and doing poorly by comparison to Europe and criminally negligent compared to 4 of the 5 countries listed below:
(a) France (519 deaths per million);
(b) Germany (119 deaths per million);
(c) South Korea (8.9 deaths per million);
(d) NZ (5 deaths per million); or
(e) Singapore (4.3 deaths per million).
3. US President Trump’s refusal to use masks has caught up with him, resulting in his family and the White House becoming a cluster of CORVID-19 infections. In this Brave New World that Germany, Korea, NZ and Singapore is part of, frequent hand washing is recommended and wearing a mask when leaving home is the norm. Let me share some facts from Singapore:
(a) Masks help to reduce the expulsion and transmission of droplets, which is the predominant route of transmission of COVID-19 (see Ministry of Heath (MOH) FAQ).
(b) Some 11 million masks were given out to Singaporean residents, along with free hand sanitisers, as part of CORVID-19 efforts by Temasek Holdings to support the nation's fight against the pandemic.
(c) In addition, about one million face shields were distributed to young schoolchildren and front-line workers in the food and beverage industry, while 250,000 oximeters - devices used to measure blood oxygen levels - were donated to various groups in the community.
(d) It will soon be compulsory to use the TraceTogether app or token to perform SafeEntry check-in at certain venues conducting activities with large groups of people in Singapore. This transition from other SafeEntry methods, such as scanning identity cards, is vital as Singapore prepares to resume larger-scale events and further reopen its economy safely, said Singapore’s Smart Nation and Digital Government Office.
4. Agreed. In Europe, Germany with 417,350 infected and 119 deaths per million is often seen as the gold standard for CORVID-19 management.
5. In common with other countries that have a competent pandemic response (like Australia, Korea, NZ and Singapore), what’s often cited for Germany’s above average effectiveness in its governmental response is through:
(a) an effective deployment of technology, such as a contact tracing app, to fight the pandemic;
(b) the frequently praised mass testing program, which rivals South Korea’s; and
(c) the oversupply of ICU beds— controversial before the coronavirus, now lauded.
The most important factor is leadership that understands the science and engineering efforts needed to solve problems. In this regard it helps that Angela Merkel has a doctorate in quantum chemistry and heads a country that treats scientists, like the Berlin-based virologist and podcaster Christian Drosten, like superstars.
6. When compared to Europe’s gold standard, South Korea, New Zealand and Singapore are the platinum standard for CORVID-19 management that would put any American state or city to shame — taking the pandemic seriously, these countries despite some set backs, have managed risks properly:
(a) South Korea has had a total of 455 CORVID-19 deaths, to date, with a population of about 51.3 million. Korea has 25,698 cases and has the 2nd lowest rate of reported cases at 268 per million population in OECD countries (above Japan at 181; as per 17 July). The fight to keep infection rates down is ongoing with some set-backs, including on 21 Oct 2020, when Korea added 121 new coronavirus cases — 104 locally transmitted and 17 imported from overseas. It marks the first time the number of locally transmitted cases surpassed 100 since 24 Sep 2020. A total of 26 cases were traced to a medical institution and a nursing facility, both in Gyeonggi Province, where infected patients from a family gathering spread the virus at their workplace and a senior care home. New clusters of infections were also reported from a swimming pool in southwestern Seoul, and from a clothing factory in Yangju, Gyeonggi Province, with 10 cases and seven cases linked to the clusters so far, respectively.
(b) NZ has had a total of 25 CORVID-19 deaths, to date, with a population of about 5 million. NZ has 1,914 confirmed and probable cases (as at 22 Oct 2020), has the third lowest rate of reported cases at 310 per million population (above Japan at 181 and South Korea at 267; as per 17 July).
(c) Singapore has had a total of 28 CORVID-19 deaths, with a population of about 6.5 million; partly because smart management of pandemic risks ensured that the heath system was never over-whelmed. This is despite the fact that 57,941 were infected, which is a much higher rate per million of population than in Korea or NZ. In Apr 2020 infections peaked at 1,426 cases per day, to 300 per day in July, to 8 per day (as at 22 Oct 2020). From Apr to Aug 2020, Singapore struggled to bring infection rates per million of population (that was higher than Korea or NZ) under control; but as the numbers show in Oct, transmission rates have gone way down thanks to effective leadership and testing, contact tracing, use of technology, and numerous other effective measures at a whole-of-government level.
(d) Deaths per million population compared:
Germany 119
Korea 8.9
NZ 5
Singapore 4.3
(e) Total COVID-19 infections compared:
Germany 417,350
Korea 25,698
NZ 1,914
Singapore 57,941
7. As of 17 Oct 2020, 37 COVID-19 patients remain hospitalised in Singapore, with none in intensive care. In Singapore more than 99% of those infected have been discharged, while there are 41 in community care facilities.
(a) One of the most effective ways of keeping patients alive in the early days was flipping them around to lie prone - or on their front - instead of on their backs when they were on ventilators.
(b) The simple manoeuvre helped patients breathe easier and absorb oxygen better, buying time for the body to recover as there was no effective therapy at that point in the outbreak.
Last edited:
Don't bother giving Atlantic Realm the benefit of the doubt. Look at his posting history. He is not someone who joins our group wanting to talk about defense matters and then talking about current events such as the coronavirus pandemic. He is an account specifically created to spread misinformation about the coronavirus. Look at the way he copy-pasted the exact same post at the same exact time on two different threads. That is not a person. It's a bot.
8. The Moderators have banned Atlantic Realm for 2 weeks, in the interim pending a decision on his long term fate in DT. Poor management of COVID-19 risks is resulting in 73,000 new cases in America — with the rate of increase rising. Denial and refusal to recognise risk is killing Americans at a record rate. On 24 Oct 2020, the number of new coronavirus infections in America at 77,640 is greater than the total number of infections in many countries.
9. Unlike idiots like US President Donald Trump and members of his administration who earlier refused to wear masks or touted the use of hydroxychloroquine (an anti-malarial drug) for the coronavirus, medicines like remdesivir and dexamethasone are proven effective at clinical trials. Dexamethasone, a commonly used corticosteroid, helps to dampen inflammation, as patients can develop severe disease due to overwhelming inflammation in the body that is triggered by the viral infection.
10. Singapore’s National Centre for Infectious Diseases (NCID), a purpose built 500 bed facility, collaborated with Gilead and the United States' National Institutes of Health for the remdesivir clinical trials.
(a) Explaining how the drugs work, Dr Lee Tau Hong, 39 said that remdesivir is an anti-viral agent that acts directly on the SARS-CoV-2 – the virus that causes COVID-19 – thus reducing the harmful effects of the disease — remdesivir shortened the average length of stay in the ICU for patients on the study.
(b) "Eventually, we were proven right with the official release of the trial results, which showed remdesivir to be the first drug with proven efficacy against SARS-CoV-2," Dr Ray Lin Junhao, 37, an infectious disease consultant at Tan Tock Seng Hospital and NCID said.
11. As with the other misinformation about the coronavirus you try to peddle, this is also factually untrue. Risk can be managed, even as the economy is being progressively opened up for business again. For example, Singapore will pilot pre-event testing from mid-October to December to identify a model that can be widely implemented so that more large-scale events can safely resume, announced Minister for Health Gan Kim Yong on Tuesday (Oct 20).
(a) This means that participants going to an event or activity will be tested either at the event venue or at a separate testing facility, and only participants who have tested negative in these Antigen rapid tests (ARTs) will be allowed to participate in the event.
(b) Although polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests are currently used as the “definitive test” for confirming COVID-19 cases, the results take about one to two days, which is not feasible for pre-event testing.
(c) The ART results will be valid for 24 hours from the time of the swab, and it must be valid at the point of entry until the end of the event, said MOH.
12. Broadly, two modes of transmission of COVID-19 exist—direct and indirect.
(i) The direct mode includes (a) transmission via aerosols formed via surgical and dental procedures and/or in the form of respiratory droplet nuclei; (b) other body fluids and secretions, for example, feces, saliva, urine, semen, and tears; and (c) mother-to-child.
(ii) Indirect transmission may occur via (a) fomites or surfaces (e.g., furniture and fixtures) present within the immediate environment of an infected patient and (b) objects used on the infected person (e.g., stethoscope or thermometer).
Last edited:
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
There is potentially a third mode of transmission, as there have now been a number of instances where frozen food packaging has tested positive for viable SARS-CoV-2 viruses. Not viewed as a major risk at present, based off the number of positives (22) vs. the # of frozen food packages tested (670,000 samples IIRC) and at present it seems unknown how the virus cultures ended up on the frozen cod packaging, but it is another thing to be mindful of.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Pretty much, yeah, as it glosses over and overly simplifies several issues to the point that it renders mitigation and containment efforts less effective or even potentially ineffective.
For instance, there is a 'problem' with staying home if sick. The problem being that depending on the person infected, it is quite possible for someone to actually be sick, infected and infectious with COVID-19, and not know it. If the rule was only that 'sick' people stayed home, there would then be a number of people (in some cases a significant number) who are either infected and asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic, who do not stay home and instead go out and about their normal day, all the while potentially exposing and infecting others. This is why there have been recommendations to curtail or reduce gatherings with people outside of one's own household, especially if the gathering are to be held indoors. Guidance for things like wearing a mask and social distancing are intended more for when people are not staying home and among their home environment.
The other big issue I have is the 'guidance' to protect the frail elderly... that manages to ignore several realities as well as what would really 'protect' them. The common belief seems to be that the virus only harms elderly, particularly those already in poor shape. While it is true that something COVID-19 would be devastating for them, the disease is certainly capable of killing younger, healthier people, or in likely even more cases, causing long-term or permanent organ and system damage. The other fallacy is what actions would actually protect a population vulnerable to COVID-19.
If one lives in a multi-generational household, with children, parents and then grandparents, the only way to 'protect' the elderly grandparents would be either isolate the entire household from contact with potentially contaminated/infectious material is either isolate the entire household, or separate the grandparents from the rest of the household and quarantine just the grandparents from contact with everyone, including every member of the household that has contact outside of the household.
Also to point out to people, there is ample historical evidence of both the value, as well as effective practices, in isolation protocols for infectious diseases, dating back centuries, long before people were even aware of microscopic bacteria or viruses. Lazar houses in medieval Europe are a good example, as they were primarily built and run to house/isolate people afflicted with "leprosy". The reason for the leprosy being in quotes is that there were a number of different skin afflictions which at the time could have all been lumped together with the actual disease leprosy aka Hansen's Disease.
Additionally, both the word and concept, "quarantine" come from a Venetian practice from Middle Ages of requiring arriving ships to wait 40 days before disembarking or unloading. That period of should have been ample time for an outbreak of smallpox or one of the plagues to have started aboard ship and been obvious, if anyone or anything on board was a source for either disease. What this in turn shows, is that people have understood and developed methods of containing an infectious disease and prevent infection spread for a very long time, despite the poster having claimed elsewhere;
Clearly that is a false statement, based off historical evidence from past epidemics and pandemics.
@Todjaeger I will beg to differ with you about the stay at home if you are sick advice. Here in NZ it is Ministry of Health advice based upon scientific advice from virologists and pandemic specialists that if you feel sick stay home, get tested and isolate until you are cleared. In the first instance you ring the national Covid-19 Health line for advice they will advise you on the next steps which are where and when to get tested, followed by the quarantine and isolation at home requirements. If you don't follow the advice you can be placed into a government quarantine facility which has isolation places within it.
It is up to individual countries about how they respond to the pandemic, and some countries such as Singapore, Taiwan and NZ have responded very well, whereas others such as the US, Brazil and some European nations have been quite callous in their response to the pandemic. Hence my personal thoughts are that certain people should be charged with crimes against humanity for their lack of adequate response to the pandemic, regardless of who they are and what positions they held or hold. In fact the higher the position the greater the responsibility.
It is up to individual countries about how they respond to the pandemic, and some countries such as Singapore, Taiwan and NZ have responded very well, whereas others such as the US, Brazil and some European nations have been quite callous in their response to the pandemic. Hence my personal thoughts are that certain people should be charged with crimes against humanity for their lack of adequate response to the pandemic, regardless of who they are and what positions they held or hold. In fact the higher the position the greater the responsibility.
Yeah - I do feel that in the UK, we're not doing a great job and mistakes were made. I think Japan and SK combined have less fatalities than we registered in a week. Given Japan is an older population (I think by about 5-7 years on average) then you can see how astonishing that margin has been.
What I'm finding interesting from YT's algorithms is that Sky News Australia keeps running counter narratives like flagging Sweden's approach as being more favourable. Sky elsewhere doesn't seem to be doing that so I'm wondering what the story behind that is.
What I'm finding interesting from YT's algorithms is that Sky News Australia keeps running counter narratives like flagging Sweden's approach as being more favourable. Sky elsewhere doesn't seem to be doing that so I'm wondering what the story behind that is.
A small note:
The low number of deaths in Germany is merely a result of a so far relatively low caseload. ICU Admission rate (6.25% of cases) in Germany is within the global spectrum (5-12%) and fatality rate (17% relative to ICU admission) is also quite standard.
As for care homes, Germany lists 45% of Covid-19 deaths as having been housed in long-term care facilities. This is exactly the same percentage as in the USA.
As a relevant link in that regard: Daily situational reports by Robert Koch Institute , the German Federal Disease Control Agency (in English).
Regarding caseload, it should be noted that the numbers in the map in that Tweet above are rather outdated.
Due to the decentralized approach of Germany - with states being responsible for disease control, and generally devolving this to local counties - an overall national 7-day incidence rate is also quite problematic as a statement. While Germany as a whole as of today has a 7-day incidence of 66.2 (with other Eu countries varying between 20.1 in Estonia and 669.3 in the Czech Republic), on a per-county basis Germany has various hotspots - with 800+ cases/100,000 people in last 7 days that are on par with hotspots in e.g. Spain or the Czech Republic.
The low number of deaths in Germany is merely a result of a so far relatively low caseload. ICU Admission rate (6.25% of cases) in Germany is within the global spectrum (5-12%) and fatality rate (17% relative to ICU admission) is also quite standard.
As for care homes, Germany lists 45% of Covid-19 deaths as having been housed in long-term care facilities. This is exactly the same percentage as in the USA.
As a relevant link in that regard: Daily situational reports by Robert Koch Institute , the German Federal Disease Control Agency (in English).
Regarding caseload, it should be noted that the numbers in the map in that Tweet above are rather outdated.
Due to the decentralized approach of Germany - with states being responsible for disease control, and generally devolving this to local counties - an overall national 7-day incidence rate is also quite problematic as a statement. While Germany as a whole as of today has a 7-day incidence of 66.2 (with other Eu countries varying between 20.1 in Estonia and 669.3 in the Czech Republic), on a per-county basis Germany has various hotspots - with 800+ cases/100,000 people in last 7 days that are on par with hotspots in e.g. Spain or the Czech Republic.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I think you misunderstood the issue I have with the "stay home if sick" recommendation, as well as the issues I have with how people have been interpreting it.
The problem IMO is not with the sick people who feel sick and are therefore staying home, or reaching out to a doctor's office or local health dept. to get tested, etc.
The problem really is everyone else. Like the infected and infectious person who is shedding the virus and potentially infecting others while they are either asymptomatic, or pre-symptomatic. Or the uninfected people, who feel fine, who then go out and engage in non-essential activities, particularly in close proximity to people outside their household, while indoors, etc.
As a side note, the US CDC recently released new guidance regarding COVID-19 exposure. Previously the risk was thought to be increased if one spent 15+ minutes at a time around someone who tested positive for COVID-19. Following research after a correctional officer in Vermont tested positive following exposure to a group of prisoners who were awaiting test results, the new guidance is a bit bleaker.
The guidance now is that there is an increased risk of infection if someone spends a cumulative 15+ minutes within a 24 hour period of time, with someone who is positive with COVID-19. My interpretation on the guidance is that it is not even a total of 15 minutes or more with a person with COVID-19, but a total of 15+ minutes with anyone/everyone who is COVID-19 positive, with a 24 hour period. So if someone spent a minute each with 16 people who were infected, the likelihood of becoming infected goes up, especially proper cleanup techniques were not used, or PPE, etc.
@Todjaeger We've just had a case in NZ where the contact between the infectious person and the victim was less than 3 minutes and that was IIRC in a workplace.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I could believe it. There are some unfortunately very common misconceptions regarding the spread of disease generally, and of course the SARS-CoV-2 virus specifically. One of them being that if one has a shorter than guidelines period of contact, that one is "safe." The reality though is that research has found the risk to increase statistically after a total of 15 minutes within a 24 hours period, which is not at all the same as 14 minutes or less are "safe".
If one were to encounter an infectious person at the wrong time, or in the wrong circumstances, one could get infected within seconds.
Even with frequent handwashing, wearing PPE (properly, which many people still cannot/will not do SMH) and social distancing, one can still get infected. The point of these tactics though is to reduce the risk of transmission, since the risk cannot be eliminated totally. Of course people need to use the tactics correctly in order for them to help. No more wearing a surgical/procedure or N95 mask as though it were a chin strap, etc.
All of these "COVID-19 deaths are exaggerated" idiocies fall at the first hurdle. Those who come up with them never have coherent explanation for the huge numbers of excess deaths. For example, ask 'em to explain why there were two or three times as many deaths in X city/region in March as in a normal year, & they change the subject or start raving.
So far, the only explanation which actually fits the facts is the obvious one: it's COVID-19.
So far, the only explanation which actually fits the facts is the obvious one: it's COVID-19.