Comparing PLAN to Indian Navy

[aaaditya]

guess india will give a lot of importance to the russian krivak class(how do the krivak class compare to the type 52 of the chinese)Russian state arms trader upbeat on exports

Jun 16, 2005, 16:55 GMT

Text of report in English by Russian news agency Interfax-AVN website

Quote:

Paris, 16 June: Russian armament exports will not reduce in the next few years, Sergey Chemezov, director-general of the Rosoboroneksport state-owned arms trading company, said at the Paris Air Show 2005 on Thursday.

"The market is broadening instead of narrowing. The amount of deals is growing, in particular with our traditional and strategic partners, India and China. I do not share the opinion of experts who think we will stop trading with India and China in two years. These countries will remain our partners for years to come," Chemezov said.

About 60 per cent of armament orders in 2003-04 were aircraft, and this year naval equipment will be the leader, Chemezov said.

In response to a question from Interfax-AVN, he said that the fire at the St Petersburg-based Severnaya Verf shipyard, which is building a destroyer for the Chinese navy, will not delay the ship's commissioning.

"I do not think that we will have to delay the ship's commissioning - at least, we do not have such fears. The shipyard is working, and the fire damage is being repaired," he said.

Negotiations on the delivery of three frigates to India will start this year. "I hope we will start negotiations with India on the construction of three frigates this year," he said.


adsH: Could you add the Link here for this Extract ! Would appreciate it!

 

[doggychow14]

Well it depends which 052 your comparing it 2. But the krivak is a frigate. It should be compared to the 054 or the future 054A. The talwars carry 8 klubs house in VLS cells compared to 8 YJ83's house in canisters. The Talwar uses the shtil with sa-n-12 grizzlys compared to the 054's HQ-7 which was based on the crotale. The Talwar uses kashtan CIWS. the 054 uses the ak-630.

http://sinodefence.com/navy/surface/054.asp

The ship's primary air/surface search radars include a Type 363S (Chinese copy of Thomson-CSF DRBV-15 Sea Tiger) 2D air/surface radar operating at E/F-band. The radar has a maximum detection range of 150km to aircraft and 50km to sea-skimming missile. The ship also has an MR-36A surface search radar operating at I-band.

The ship has four fire-control radars. One I/J-band Type 345 (Chinese copy of Thomson CSF Castor-II) radar for the HQ-7 SAM control, an MR34 for the 100mm main gun, and two I-band Type 347G (EFR-1) Rice Lamp radars for use with the AK-630 CIWS.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Talwar.html

Surface Search; One 3Ts-25E (Garpun-B) radar at I-band frequency, using both active and passive channels, provides long-range surface target designation. One MR-212/201-1 radar at I-band frequency is used for navigation and a separate Kelvin Hughes Nucleus-2 6000A radar set is used for short-range navigation and surface surveillance. Also fitted with a Ladoga-ME-11356 inertial navigation and stabilisation suite supplied by [font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Elektropribor[/font].
Air/Surface Search; One Fregat M2EM (NATO: Top Plate) 3D circular scan radar at E-band frequency, provides target indication to the Shtil-1 missile system. Featuring continuous electronically scanned arrays, the radar rotates at 12 or 6 rpm and has an instrumented range to 300 km.

Fire Control; Features a Ratep JSC 5P-10E Puma fire control system, comprising of a phased array and target tracking radar along with laser and TV devices. The system - fitted above the bridge deck - features in-flight course correction updates via data links, has a maximum detection range of 60 km, operates autonomously and is capable of automatically locking on to four targets and tracking them.

Both are said to be stop gap measures. Talwar for the p17. the 054 for the 054A.

 

[aaaditya]

thanks for the info,but doesnt type 54 have any form of anti submarine warfare capabilities.:coffee

 

[doggychow14]

the 054 can house either a ka-28 ASW helicopter or a z-9C. It also carries yu-7 torpedoes.

 

[aaaditya]

thanks but some info on yu7 would be realy nice, is it an indigenous design or based on a russia design,how many of them the ship carries and what are their specifications.:coffee

 

[doggychow14]

yu-7 is said to be a copy of the mk46.

 

[aaaditya]

thanks but what is it's range ,guidance ,engagement depth and speed

 

[doggychow14]

Primary FunctionAir and ship-launched lightweight torpedo ContractorAlliant Techsystems Power PlantTwo-speed, reciprocating external combustion;
Mono-propellant (Otto fuel II) fueled Length102.36 in. tube launch configuration (from ship) Weight517.65 lbs (warshot configuration) Diameter12.75 inches RangeOfficially "8,000 yards"
Reportedly 11,400 - 12,000 yd. at 45 kt. Weapon acquisition range 1600 yards Min/Max ASROC launching ranges 1500 to 12000 yards DepthOfficially "Greater than 1,200 ft (365 meters)"
Reportedly 1,500 ft. Search/attack depth settings Minimum 20 yards
Maximum 1500 yards SpeedGreater than 28 knots (32.2 mph, 51.52 kph)
Reportedly 45 kt
Actual 45 knots Run characteristics 6-8 minutes
clockwise Guidance SystemHoming mode - Active or passive/active acoustic homing
Launch/search mode - Snake or circle search

Specs of the mk 46 from fas.

Info on known PLAN torpedoes are found in http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/weapon/torpedo.asp .

 

[corsair7772]

the type 54 doesnt have any credible form of ASW capability. Atleast not until the chinese decide to make it so. I read at sino defence that the design had been deliberately kept unsophisticated to carter for mass production. In the future we might see some very sophisticated ASW capability but for now PLAN relies more heavily on aerial platforms and ,secondarily as an alternative, its submarines for the ASW role. So i dont see any reason for a standard ASW capability in all ships except perhaps some key units similar to the PLA doctrine which gives the best equipment to only key units, more specifically, the offensive units.

 

[aaaditya]

i think thats a very flawed tactic(like sacrificing your weaker units for better one),it would be better if you have vessels with multirole capability instead of sending an airdefence destroyer with asuw frigate as an escort.you can have all these capabilities in a single ship.:coffee

 

[doggychow14]

I read at sino defence that the design had been deliberately kept unsophisticated to carter for mass production.

It did not say that about the 054. I think you need to visit it again. All of PLANs new DGs/FGs are multirole. Though the level of capability in each role vary between them. For example the 052C has excellent air defence capability where as the 052B carries more missiles for the strike role. The 054 does have some ASW though not as complex as most western systems. It does have sonar, ka28, torpedoes.

 

[corsair7772]

i think thats a very flawed tactic(like sacrificing your weaker units for better one),it would be better if you have vessels with multirole capability instead of sending an airdefence destroyer with asuw frigate as an escort.you can have all these capabilities in a single ship.:coffee

Beggars cant be choosers man. The PLAN is better but still lagging in hi tech departments like ASW atleast until the EU lifts its arms embargoe. Maybe then it could start domestic production of wetern sonar systems or better yet fund some of their futuristic programs. Personally id prefer the aerial platform concept because it is least vunerable to the submarines retaliation. that is if its land based.

 

[ArjunMK1]

The future naval combat butween IN and PLAN is going to occour around the strait of Malacca. Initial conflict will arise around Coco island of Mayanar , which is near to the Indian Andaman islands .
Here the PLAN is going to face serious defiency in air defence .It might use Mayanmar's air ports but they can be easily destroyed by Indian Airforce using bombers from mainland .
PLAN will be facing sea harriers,Mig 29s,brahmos missiles and it does not have enough airdefence systems.
The cream of PLAN is Sovermoy destroyers with moskit(120 km range) missiles .
But they will be facing 300km Brahmos supersonic cruise missiles , PLAN ships will be destroyed even before they could get the range of firing their moskit missiles . Then adds the advantage of aircrafts from carriers in attacking or survellience roles . PLAN has a large number of subs , but most of them are old ,thus noisy and lacks range .Indian ASW capability is one of the best in Asia since it is threatned onlyPakistani subs.The pakistani tactis is to hamper IN deployments through covert attacks by subs (as in 65 and 71 wars) and India has developed a creditable ASW capabilities .
The area where IN lacks is air defence.It's most modern anti missile/aircraft weapons are Israeli Barak and Russian Shitl missile systems . The rest rely on older russian missiles(which are being replaced by Baraks).Indian indigneous anti aircraft/missile system Trishul is underway .
But IN is going to face China not USN. These systems are enough for Chinese navy .
Actually china built its navy for defence in China sea and not in Indian ocean, it is good there but at longer ranges it will not get its ground based air support nor the large number of subs who are incapable of longer ranges .

India is no fool to carry a naval mission to South China sea , instead it will deny chinese ships through the Malacca strait.This will stop the oil flow to China from the middle east and will force China to send an armada there.

The situation is advantageous for India since it can also use its Jaguars and Mirages from the bases in Andaman and Nicobar islands .


some info about PLAN :
http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/china/

 

[doggychow14]

Well the straits of Mecca is still within range for fighters in China's mainland. The idea that India can destroy PLA airfields can be said about India. The Brahmos may have a range of 300KM, however it will be very difficult for India to target PLAN ships. It will have to use the ka-31 to relay data. Also since most PLAN missiles can be carried by aircraft, the range of the yj-83 is 250km airlaunched. even though China has a traditional weakness in airdefence, this issue is being addressed rapidly through the 052C, 051C, 054A. Also the yj-12 rumored to be on the 052C is rumored to have a range of ~300km. Since PLAN missiles are all capable of air launches, the range of these missiles are further extended from this. Also though most of PLANs submarine force is noisy, this is also being addressed. PLAN many new subs in production. They have the KILO, SONG, YUAN, and 093 which will form a crediable force. As China will face Indian sea harriars and mig29s, India will face su-30mkk/mk2, and jh-7A all of which were designed to attack a USN fleet in a possible Taiwan conflict.

 

[ArjunMK1]

Well the straits of Mecca is still within range for fighters in China's mainland. The idea that India can destroy PLA airfields can be said about India. The Brahmos may have a range of 300KM, however it will be very difficult for India to target PLAN ships. It will have to use the ka-31 to relay data. Also since most PLAN missiles can be carried by aircraft, the range of the yj-83 is 250km airlaunched. even though China has a traditional weakness in airdefence, this issue is being addressed rapidly through the 052C, 051C, 054A. Also the yj-12 rumored to be on the 052C is rumored to have a range of ~300km. Since PLAN missiles are all capable of air launches, the range of these missiles are further extended from this. Also though most of PLANs submarine force is noisy, this is also being addressed. PLAN many new subs in production. They have the KILO, SONG, YUAN, and 093 which will form a crediable force. As China will face Indian sea harriars and mig29s, India will face su-30mkk/mk2, and jh-7A all of which were designed to attack a USN fleet in a possible Taiwan conflict.

Thanks DoggyChow .

PLAN is having air launched AShMs at 250 km range? Air defence range is 300 kms ?? Please post some relevent links .

The Chinese aircrafts operating from China's land bases will have to run on extreme ranges . And these will be an easy prey to Indian carrier launched harriers,Mig 29s since the Chinese aircrafts will have a very little fuel left after such long journey . And if China uses the air bases in Mayanmar then they will be easily destroyed by India's superior aircraft , since Mayanmar has got no creditable air defence and china can not provide them with in a short time .
Moreover India will also get support from the navalised Jaguars and Mirages carrying Sea Eagle missile . These aircrafts operates from India's Andaman & Nicobar islands, which is just at the gates of Malacca . The bases at the Andamans were specifically created for these purpose , details of which remained secret until the great sunami flooded the runways & the staff quaters and the reporters got a permit to take pictures .
Now after repairment these bases even keep a number of Su30 planes .


PLAAN has got quantity but IN has got quality, since IN gets its equipment from Russia,Britain ,France,Israel , etc . And PLAAN is virtually outcasted by west only russia provides a few high tech equipments ,the rest are indegneous or reversed engineered older Russian/western equipments .


Here I am not saying that IN will easily beat down PLAAN , but it will be a even contest . And also a very deadly one .
But if happens in Mallaca, the balance is tilted towards IN.

 

[doggychow14]

PLAN is having air launched AShMs at 250 km range? Air defence range is 300 kms ?? Please post some relevent links .

the yj-83 was reported by western sources of achieving a succesful airlaunched test of 250km. No i didn't mean the hq-9s on the 052C has a range of 300km. I'm talking about the new AShMs on the 052C.

The Chinese aircrafts operating from China's land bases will have to run on extreme ranges .

China is actively pursueing air to air refueling

And if China uses the air bases in Mayanmar then they will be easily destroyed by India's superior aircraft

Those airbases will be protected by advanced sams such as the hq-9 or the s-300. They will also most likely carry su-27s/j-11s, and j-10s.

Moreover India will also get support from the navalised Jaguars and Mirages carrying Sea Eagle missile .

refer back to my statement on the su-30mk2/mkk and and the jh-7A that carry the yj-83, yj-91(KH-31), and kh-31.

PLAAN has got quantity but IN has got quality, since IN gets its equipment from Russia,Britain ,France,Israel , etc . And PLAAN is virtually outcasted by west only russia provides a few high tech equipments ,the rest are indegneous or reversed engineered older Russian/western equipments .

PLAAN is still an obsolete navy undergoing rapid military modernazation. IN is in the same process. PLAAN is beginning to get quality with its 052C/B, 054/A, 093, 051C, and Yuan. China gets much of its equipment from Russia, true. But it also gets many tech transfers from Israel which helped bring much of its programs in order such as the j-10, and its new AWACS. Thus the uproar from Washington. China is taking more of an idenigenous aproach and is having great success in a short timeframe.

 

[ajay_ijn]

The future naval combat butween IN and PLAN is going to occour around the strait of Malacca. Initial conflict will arise around Coco island of Mayanar , which is near to the Indian Andaman islands .
Here the PLAN is going to face serious defiency in air defence .It might use Mayanmar's air ports but they can be easily destroyed by Indian Airforce using bombers from mainland .
PLAN will be facing sea harriers,Mig 29s,brahmos missiles and it does not have enough airdefence systems.
The cream of PLAN is Sovermoy destroyers with moskit(120 km range) missiles .
But they will be facing 300km Brahmos supersonic cruise missiles , PLAN ships will be destroyed even before they could get the range of firing their moskit missiles . Then adds the advantage of aircrafts from carriers in attacking or survellience roles . PLAN has a large number of subs , but most of them are old ,thus noisy and lacks range .Indian ASW capability is one of the best in Asia since it is threatned onlyPakistani subs.The pakistani tactis is to hamper IN deployments through covert attacks by subs (as in 65 and 71 wars) and India has developed a creditable ASW capabilities .
The area where IN lacks is air defence.It's most modern anti missile/aircraft weapons are Israeli Barak and Russian Shitl missile systems . The rest rely on older russian missiles(which are being replaced by Baraks).Indian indigneous anti aircraft/missile system Trishul is underway .
But IN is going to face China not USN. These systems are enough for Chinese navy .
Actually china built its navy for defence in China sea and not in Indian ocean, it is good there but at longer ranges it will not get its ground based air support nor the large number of subs who are incapable of longer ranges .

India is no fool to carry a naval mission to South China sea , instead it will deny chinese ships through the Malacca strait.This will stop the oil flow to China from the middle east and will force China to send an armada there.

The situation is advantageous for India since it can also use its Jaguars and Mirages from the bases in Andaman and Nicobar islands .


some info about PLAN :
http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/china/

India has developed a creditable ASW capabilities .

India had little experience of ASW capabilities during 1971.
But now they have build some capabilities.
Some modern SSKs are extremely difficult to detect.
Its still a very difficult task to detect SSKs.

Here the PLAN is going to face serious defiency in air defence .It might use Mayanmar's air ports but they can be easily destroyed by Indian Airforce using bombers from mainland .
PLAN will be facing sea harriers,Mig 29s,brahmos missiles and it does not have enough airdefence systems.

If PLAN deploys Su-27s in Mayanmar,then India is most likely going to use MKIs or
Mig-29Ks.

India is no fool to carry a naval mission to South China sea , instead it will deny chinese ships through the Malacca strait.This will stop the oil flow to China from the middle east and will force China to send an armada there.

India had the long dream to make its presence in South China Sea,they carried a unilateral exercise once in South China Sea.
If China deploys its warhips in Gwadar port or Mayanmar,then IN will also try to deploy its warships in vietnam.
India is having some good relationship with vietnam,this good must change to very close so as to deploy our warships.

But it also gets many tech transfers from Israel which helped bring much of its programs in order such as the j-10, and its new AWACS

Now US has been seriously looking into Israel-China thing.
They blocked the sale of phalcon,Harpy UAVs etc.
Now Israel has to report every military deal with other countries to US.

 

[doggychow14]

Now US has been seriously looking into Israel-China thing.
They blocked the sale of phalcon,Harpy UAVs etc.
Now Israel has to report every military deal with other countries to US

Yes but the damage is already done. China's j-10 already recieved much help from the LAVI program and china's kj-2000 recieved much help from the Phalcon. Israel will still have backdoor military deals with China. The US was not aware of many Israeli programs with China and only now beginning to uncover the damage that was done.

//Mod: I'd like to see some sources before you start off rumors. the blame game only ends up hurting!!

 

[ArjunMK1]

But India has already got Phalcon AWACS and air-air refuelling systems .It also employs a number of Israeli/indegeneous UAVs.
Though the Phalcon deal was closed recently , it was with Indian Airforce for the past two years . Same is the case of green pine radars , though talks are going on Indian, army/AF has got a number of them for training . The Indian Su30s with latest Russian radars and Israeli electronics can act as mini AWACS . And India is the only Asian country (I suppose) who has the satellites capable of projecting pictures upto 1m resolution . So the PLAAF wil face a hard time if it goes to destroy India's airbases .



India currently employs Pechora SAMs( recently upgraded by Russia,Poland), S-300 for high to medium level air defence , which provides a very capable antiaircraft/anti cruise missile capability and a limited ABM capability . And it has a very ambitious plan of forming a multi layered ABM ,anti aircraft system integrating Israeli Phalcon/GreenPine systems with Russian S-300/400
and indigneous Akash,Trishul missile with indigneous radars .That is why India is asking the US for Patriot technology , not the missile itself .

This very capable system will take shape in the next two/three years.

//Mod edit: I agree India will have a credible defense but refrain from useing emotion driven statements it would only incite someone too reply with an even more emotional response.

 

[gf0012-aust]

This very capable system will take shape in the next two/three years , then Indian airspace will become inpenetratable !!!

Matey, no system is imprenetrable - there are always ways and means to circumvent a defence.

It would be a good idea to temper your enthusiasm and inject a bit more caution into your future responses.