Man, I agree with everything you said. But as I said earlier, PLAN thinks differently. Or, let me put this way, PLAN, as any navy does, has its own short, medium and long term goals. And there are, for example 100 factors you need to consider, we as observers, can accurately assess may be several factors, but PLAN needs to weigh the whole 100 factors and prioritise all of them then decide what is the best solution. For example, AC is definetely not required in the Taiwan scenario, but do you really need to wait until Taiwan issue is solved completely then start building ACs? Building and training an AC fleet may take you another 20 years. In playing Chinese chess, you need to concentrate on the second step, not the next step. Also you need to prepare the third step at least.berry580 said:
Comparing PLAN to Indian Navy
- Thread starter dabrownguy
- Start date
You forget, there are several offshore installations and key island clusters in the indian and pacific ocean which are vital trade routes and which china would love to get its hands on. A carrier would fill the role of securing these areas from weak third world countries like vietnam. Also, these carriers would have utility when china decides to intervene between two small third world countries fighting each other silly but certianly not a war as sophisticated as an Indo-Pak war. The Carriers therefore will be performing secondary strategic roles in which they are required but not shot at. Atleast not until they have enough capable carriers and AD ships. So for now carriers will have significant role in deciding small scale disputes but not large scale ones.berry580 said:
Allow me to quote to you an interesting case in the Indo-Pak scenario. When a pakistani detachment of officers went to indonesia in order to ask for help (i dont rmmbr wether it was 65 or 71), The indonesians were actually eager enough to send 3 Foxtrots and 4 Osa Missile boats. Thats a large force and one cannot help but suspect the intentions behind it. These became clear when the indonesian admiral asked the PN on how the force should be used. When the PN replied that theyd be used to hunt the vikrant and defend karachi he expressed his disappointment. Its was to become clear only after the war that the Indonesians had been planning to snatch away the Andaman Islands from India while the war was ongoing in the pretext of aiding pakistan. Thats strategic interest for you.
Are u just considering Light Aircraft Carriers like the Indian Ones,or the Even the US Super Carriers.
If about the Indian ones,ur right they cannot be deciding factor for the outcome of the war,Presently they are capable blocking a port,Blocking Supplies for the Enemy,Bombing Port Cities to destroy Supplies.
Do u have source for that.
Its foolish for Indonesia to do that,Challenging a Navy which has a Carrier.
I wonder even if Indonesia had a Apmphibious Force to ocupy the Islands.
India at any cost will not sacrifice the Andaman Islands.
One thing to keep in Mind:Never Challenge a Navy which has a Carrier if u don't have one.
hey guys found some interesting nuggets on the web if true they will make indin navy a very formidable force.(india already provides berthing and refuelling facilities to us navy at chennai and kochi).
http://www.dapss.com/MPI/samples/Vol.15/issue0605/0605P-india.htm
(range of sagarika cruise missile to be increased to 2500kms with israeli collaboration).http://www4.alternativenews.org/display.php?id=4348
http://indiareacts.com/nati2.asp?recno=3333&ctg=(seems brahmos is gaining in popularity)
:coffee
http://www.dapss.com/MPI/samples/Vol.15/issue0605/0605P-india.htm
(range of sagarika cruise missile to be increased to 2500kms with israeli collaboration).http://www4.alternativenews.org/display.php?id=4348
http://indiareacts.com/nati2.asp?recno=3333&ctg=(seems brahmos is gaining in popularity)
:coffee
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India to supply spares to Vietnamese navy:-
New Delhi | June 07, 2005 4:43:22 PM IST
New Delhi, June 7 : India will supply to Vietnam's navy much-needed spares for its Russian-made warships as part of its efforts to step up maritime cooperation with countries of the Indian Ocean region.
"As part of enhanced maritime cooperation between the two countries, INS Magar, an amphibious ship, will carry a shipment of 900 boxes weighing 150 tonnes of Petya and missile boat spares for the Vietnamese navy," navy spokesman Lieutenant Commander Balbir Singh said here Tuesday.
The supply of the spares had been agreed to during the visit of Vietnam's Defence Minister Pham Van Tra to India in March.
Indian Navy officials said Vietnam was an important part of India's extended maritime neighbourhood and bilateral relations had gone from strength to strength in recent years.
This has been the result of positive initiatives from both the sides and a "realisation of the mutual benefits that can accrue through enhanced interaction between the two sides", the officials said.
"These spares will be of immense value to the Vietnamese Navy that operates a number of Russian-built Petya and OSA II-class missile boats," Singh said.
Vice Admiral O.P. Bansal, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of India's Eastern Naval Command, will be present when the spares are handed over to the Vietnamese navy later this week at Ho Chi Minh City.
The Indian Navy is committed to making the Indian Ocean region as well as the Asian maritime region stable and peaceful.
"India is keen that the freedom of the seas and the safety of the sea-lanes of communication are guaranteed for all nations," said Singh.
"To fulfil this commitment, the Indian Navy maintains constant vigil over its waters to stave off adversity and is continuously forging cooperative ventures with navies which could act in league for the larger common maritime good of the region and the world."
:coffee found this in the bharat rakshak forum.
New Delhi | June 07, 2005 4:43:22 PM IST
New Delhi, June 7 : India will supply to Vietnam's navy much-needed spares for its Russian-made warships as part of its efforts to step up maritime cooperation with countries of the Indian Ocean region.
"As part of enhanced maritime cooperation between the two countries, INS Magar, an amphibious ship, will carry a shipment of 900 boxes weighing 150 tonnes of Petya and missile boat spares for the Vietnamese navy," navy spokesman Lieutenant Commander Balbir Singh said here Tuesday.
The supply of the spares had been agreed to during the visit of Vietnam's Defence Minister Pham Van Tra to India in March.
Indian Navy officials said Vietnam was an important part of India's extended maritime neighbourhood and bilateral relations had gone from strength to strength in recent years.
This has been the result of positive initiatives from both the sides and a "realisation of the mutual benefits that can accrue through enhanced interaction between the two sides", the officials said.
"These spares will be of immense value to the Vietnamese Navy that operates a number of Russian-built Petya and OSA II-class missile boats," Singh said.
Vice Admiral O.P. Bansal, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of India's Eastern Naval Command, will be present when the spares are handed over to the Vietnamese navy later this week at Ho Chi Minh City.
The Indian Navy is committed to making the Indian Ocean region as well as the Asian maritime region stable and peaceful.
"India is keen that the freedom of the seas and the safety of the sea-lanes of communication are guaranteed for all nations," said Singh.
"To fulfil this commitment, the Indian Navy maintains constant vigil over its waters to stave off adversity and is continuously forging cooperative ventures with navies which could act in league for the larger common maritime good of the region and the world."
:coffee found this in the bharat rakshak forum.ajay_ijn said:
The Carrier In the INdian Pak Case is more of liability!! then an Asset. Shores and bases are closer to each others coast. Air-bases are more Cost effective. Without proper Escort and the Proper Air denseness system the Carrier is no Good, in Battle. I have to admit it provides an Advantage, But only if your primary goal is to expedite the War off your Shore to a nation that your bombers can't reach. the Vikrant didn't attack the Karachi port in the 71's That was one of the reasons why !! It was susceptible to Pak Sub fleet And the Air cover!!. YOu need to get More Intelligence surveillance Gather Assets Properly enforce the the Battle goup. But the Admiral Gorshkov may come with what you need to Effectively Conduct a full scale Assault!!!
Who the hell said u that Vikrant did not attack becoz it was susceptible to pak Sub Fleet and air cover.Did u read about it or Guessing just like that.
Do u think PN or anything in Pakistan could Stop Vikrant from Attacking Karachi in 65 or 71?
Ans:No Never.
Indian Navy was eager to use its Carrier to Attack Karachi in 1971 but one of Vikrant's Boiler damaged and it could not get the speed enough to get fight in the arabian Sea.Actually Vikrant was placed in Eastern Fleet HQ Vizag.
So the it was decided that Vikrant can be used Sink East Pakistani Ships.
If Everything was alright for Vikrant,Then Karachi port and PN would have been under huge trouble.
In 1965 Navy was not given permission for offensive actions and on the top of it Vikrant was undergoing Refit.
Air Bases are cost effective but cannot provide air cover for its warships effectively.
Land Based Aircraft cannot Block a port Sucessfully unless they are very close.
Even though Karachi port is near to India,it would be difficult for Land Based Aircraft to block it.
Land Based Aircraft cannot Sink the Enemy Warships or Submarines as effectively as Aircraft Carrier.
Aircraft Carrier as here we refer to the whole CVBG which has ASW and AD Escorts for sure.U Don't Send Carrier Alone for the Attack.
Without Aircraft Carrier,Other Warships are at a Significant Disadvantage becoz they will be vulnerable to Enemy Aircraft and Submarines.
Aircraft Carrier might be vulnerable to Submarines,but it is also the most powerful ASW weapon.
USN has used many Aircraft Carriers in cold war and also in ww2 for ASW role.
PN Sank one Indian Frigate in 71 war in arabian sea and Indian Navy sent all its ASW and Surveillance WarShips and Aircraft to hunt that Submarine.Many times they dropped depth Charges Suspecting that submarine might be there but after 3 days or so the PN Submarine returned to Karachi safely.
And if This was not humiliating for Indian Navy,An Indian Navy Alize Aircraft was Shot down by PAF F-104.
This is an unforgettable loss for IN and i think all this happened becoz of lack of Aircraft Carrier in the arabian sea.
That is why Indian Navy always wants have 2 or 3 Carriers.
Aircraft on the Carrier with itself act as intelligence gethering asset.
Even USN uses Aircraft on the Carrier for Surveillance,Early warning etc.
Similar is with the Indian Aircraft Carrier.
hey guys india has launched its fourth lst(l) ins kesari in just 17 months and with 90 percent indigenous content.:coffee
Indan Navy today received its fourth Landing Ship Tank (Large) INS Kesari here.
The fourth in a series of LST(L)s built by Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers Limited (GRSE), INS Kesari, was launched in the presence of Vice Chief of Naval Staff Vice Admiral Yashwant Prasad.
The ship, built at a cost of Rs 400 crore, would be the most modern LST(L) in the country and carry armoured tanks, army vehicles and troops.
Speaking at the launch, GRSE CMD Rear Admiral (retd) T S Ganeshan said the 124.8 metre long and 17.5 metre wide auxilliary warship can carry 11 main battle tanks, 10 army vehicles and 500 troops excluding ship crew, for amphibious operations and was capable of achieving a speed of 15.8 knots.
It would also be fitted with modern electronic equipment and have two WM 18 rocket launcher mountings by L&T and four Anti Aircraft Guns and Battle Damage Control Systems, he said.
The ship, which was readied for launch in 17 months from keel laying, was also provided with helicopter staging facilities to accomodate Seaking 42C helicopter or indigenously built Dhruv helicopter.
GRSE had earlier delivered two LST(L) - INS Magar and INS Gharial - to the Navy in 1987 and 1997 respectively.
It was also currently undertaking outfitting of INS Shardul, launched last year.
[admin edit: Off topic, deleted.]http://www.grse.nic.in/images/ev2.jpg
Indan Navy today received its fourth Landing Ship Tank (Large) INS Kesari here.
The fourth in a series of LST(L)s built by Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers Limited (GRSE), INS Kesari, was launched in the presence of Vice Chief of Naval Staff Vice Admiral Yashwant Prasad.
The ship, built at a cost of Rs 400 crore, would be the most modern LST(L) in the country and carry armoured tanks, army vehicles and troops.
Speaking at the launch, GRSE CMD Rear Admiral (retd) T S Ganeshan said the 124.8 metre long and 17.5 metre wide auxilliary warship can carry 11 main battle tanks, 10 army vehicles and 500 troops excluding ship crew, for amphibious operations and was capable of achieving a speed of 15.8 knots.
It would also be fitted with modern electronic equipment and have two WM 18 rocket launcher mountings by L&T and four Anti Aircraft Guns and Battle Damage Control Systems, he said.
The ship, which was readied for launch in 17 months from keel laying, was also provided with helicopter staging facilities to accomodate Seaking 42C helicopter or indigenously built Dhruv helicopter.
GRSE had earlier delivered two LST(L) - INS Magar and INS Gharial - to the Navy in 1987 and 1997 respectively.
It was also currently undertaking outfitting of INS Shardul, launched last year.
[admin edit: Off topic, deleted.]http://www.grse.nic.in/images/ev2.jpg
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also check this article published in outlook india
Navy to induct indigenously built aircraft carrier by 2012KOLKATA, JUNE 8 (PTI)
The Indian Navy would induct the first indigenously built aircraft carrier warship by 2012 while INS Vikramaditya, the domestic version of a Russian made aircraft carrier, would be ready for commissioning by 2008.
"The indigenously built aircraft carrier ships will be ready for commissioning by 2012," Vice Chief of the Naval Staff, Vice Admiral Yashwant Prasad told reporters here today.
Emphasising on the need for indigenisation of warships and equipment, Prasad said "we will require support vessels like destroyers, attackers and oil tankers along with the aircraft carriers, which are being built at the Kochi shipyard." He said orders for support vessels were being placed to domestic shipbuilders like the Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers Ltd (GRSE) here.
Meanwhile, the Navy would commission the indigenised version of Russian aircraft carrier 'Admiral Goskhsov' as INS Vikramaditya in 2008, he said.
Prasad, who was present at the launch of Landing Ship Tank (Large) INS Kesari, said three LST(L)s are being procured as part of 'Project 16 Alpha' at a cost of Rs 1,200 crore.
The Navy would also place orders for Fast Attack Craft to GRSE during the next few years. To a question, he said the Navy, which took part in relief operations in Sri Lanka, Maldives and Indonesia after the tsunami, was planning to induct Large Platform Dock ships to meet requirement during such disasters. About private investment in the sector, he said though government wanted private sector to come forward, not much response was obtained due to huge fund requirement
:coffee
Navy to induct indigenously built aircraft carrier by 2012KOLKATA, JUNE 8 (PTI)
The Indian Navy would induct the first indigenously built aircraft carrier warship by 2012 while INS Vikramaditya, the domestic version of a Russian made aircraft carrier, would be ready for commissioning by 2008.
"The indigenously built aircraft carrier ships will be ready for commissioning by 2012," Vice Chief of the Naval Staff, Vice Admiral Yashwant Prasad told reporters here today.
Emphasising on the need for indigenisation of warships and equipment, Prasad said "we will require support vessels like destroyers, attackers and oil tankers along with the aircraft carriers, which are being built at the Kochi shipyard." He said orders for support vessels were being placed to domestic shipbuilders like the Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers Ltd (GRSE) here.
Meanwhile, the Navy would commission the indigenised version of Russian aircraft carrier 'Admiral Goskhsov' as INS Vikramaditya in 2008, he said.
Prasad, who was present at the launch of Landing Ship Tank (Large) INS Kesari, said three LST(L)s are being procured as part of 'Project 16 Alpha' at a cost of Rs 1,200 crore.
The Navy would also place orders for Fast Attack Craft to GRSE during the next few years. To a question, he said the Navy, which took part in relief operations in Sri Lanka, Maldives and Indonesia after the tsunami, was planning to induct Large Platform Dock ships to meet requirement during such disasters. About private investment in the sector, he said though government wanted private sector to come forward, not much response was obtained due to huge fund requirement
:coffee
I'm not turing this into a flame thread. Boiler Trouble Or not That Ship was ineffective in Battle it may have been the Unwilling IN Top brass as they Saw, that They had no need for a Sledge hammer to Crack that Nut. In addition to that, the Entire Sub Fleet of PN would have been thrown At the vikrant just to Demoralize the IN. the Use of such a vessel in those circumstances would have not made sense at all. Considering a Full Karachi Blockade was In Effect and bombardment was going Largely unhindered. Bringing a WWII Asset would only of made things worse.
1) i could not find a place to post that news
2)i thought it would be relevant to this thread as it showed that indian navy was now giving emphasis to amphibious assault capability and asw.
3)it also shows that in is developing an aircraft carrier and gives a fixed time limit for its induction a comparison with chinese navy.
4)it also shows that india is rapidly increasing its shipbuilding capacity,with more orders to follow,increased cooperation with neighbouring nations,quality of shipbuilding is being improved.:coffee
well these are my contribution on indian navy to this thread(i dont have much info on plan so i keep quiet on that aspect)
it is now uopto one of the other members who has knowledge of plan to post something so that we can all do the comparison.
GOT IT WEBMASTER:
2)i thought it would be relevant to this thread as it showed that indian navy was now giving emphasis to amphibious assault capability and asw.
3)it also shows that in is developing an aircraft carrier and gives a fixed time limit for its induction a comparison with chinese navy.
4)it also shows that india is rapidly increasing its shipbuilding capacity,with more orders to follow,increased cooperation with neighbouring nations,quality of shipbuilding is being improved.:coffee
well these are my contribution on indian navy to this thread(i dont have much info on plan so i keep quiet on that aspect)
it is now uopto one of the other members who has knowledge of plan to post something so that we can all do the comparison.
GOT IT WEBMASTER
:
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
I agree with aaaditya, as this piece of news is relevant to the shifting naval power-balance between China & India. That said perhaps he should have just linked the article and analysed it
What kind of radar is on the 170?
I heard is APAR (somebody explain this to me plz, don't get it), and kind does the Aegis use?
Now is too early to compare their navy's, both are going through modernization if one get into the other's territory (where jets have the range to reach them) then the one with the home town advantage is sure to win.
But if they meet in the open water, then who knows, it'll come down to trainning and equipment...
I heard is APAR (somebody explain this to me plz, don't get it), and kind does the Aegis use?
Now is too early to compare their navy's, both are going through modernization if one get into the other's territory (where jets have the range to reach them) then the one with the home town advantage is sure to win.
But if they meet in the open water, then who knows, it'll come down to trainning and equipment...
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
I believe AEGIS uses the [size=-1]AN/SPY-1 Phased-array. Supposedly the 170 also used a phased array that is similar to AEGIS, but I don't buy that. No way the Chinese have anything that good.armage said:
[/size]
some time ago i posted a detail somewhere that the SPY-1 was able to pick up a stealth jet like the F-22 which was proven in a Japanese and US excercise when the Japanese "lost" their E-767s in the excercise (which could also pick up the F-22 in a flawed manner with lots of glitches). This should give you an idea of how good the radar is but Gary and high sea were skeptical over the technical details i provided.Musashi_kenshin said:
So its highly unlikely the chinese or the indians could make something like it. For the chinese id say that their SA-10 radars and new AWACS should suffice until they get their shipborne radars up and working.
doggychow14
New Member
[size=-1]
[/size]The 170/171 clearly uses 4 PAR radars in a similar configuration to the arleigh burke. There are rumers that the par on the 052C is APAR (active) where as the aegis uses a passive par. However these are rumors and they are most likely to be false. Remember the an/spy-1 has been in service for over 30 years now. It's not infeasable for PLAN to develop a similar system. A new EW suite featuring phased array antennas similar to AN/SLQ-32 EW system is on the side of the forward mast.
As Web tried to point out earlier, this thread is diverting off topic.
get back on it please.
get back on it please.