Comparing PLAN to Indian Navy

[contedicavour]

during coastal operations, the different Y-8 platforms (most notably Y-8J and KJ-200) will be providing targetting data and guidance. There will also be su-30mk2s and JH-7 that could help.

now, if we just stick with the onboard naval arm, then you would have to go with the ka-28s and Z-9Cs for that. Most of the recent DDGs are installed with bandstand radar, that's another way for OTH attacks.

Also, there was a recent order of 15 ka-31s. Although, the future of a PLAN battle group will most likely rely on Y-7 AEW.

All of the assets you mention carry the same radar fit as the KA-31AEW helos ? Could you say more about range ?

thanks

 

[kams]

WP 2000, tphuang,
Thanks for the input. Landbased AEW is good enough for coastal opeartions. However it's not enough extended operations beyond the coverage area for obvious reasons. KA-28 is ASW helicopter not AEW. While Z-9C may be good for Over the horizon targeting, howver does not provide 360° coverage to be an effective AEW platform. KA-31 is a good choice.

Y-7 will be carrier based right?

 

[isthvan]

All of the assets you mention carry the same radar fit as the KA-31AEW helos ? Could you say more about range ?

thanks

J-8j uses Racal Skymaster radar accommodated in the aircraft’s nose radome, the I-band pulse Doppler radar has a detection range of 85km (look-down mode) or 110km (look-up mode)…

KJ-200 uses indigenous Chinese “Balance Beam” radar similar to Swedish ERIEYE. Information’s about range and radar characteristics are still unknown…

Tphuang I was unaware of Y-7 AEW version… Can you please provide same additional data?

 

[contedicavour]

J-8j uses Racal Skymaster radar accommodated in the aircraft’s nose radome, the I-band pulse Doppler radar has a detection range of 85km (look-down mode) or 110km (look-up mode)…

KJ-200 uses indigenous Chinese “Balance Beam” radar similar to Swedish ERIEYE. Information’s about range and radar characteristics are still unknown…

Tphuang I was unaware of Y-7 AEW version… Can you please provide same additional data?

Thanks for the data. It seems to me to be rather short 85km in terms of range... my understanding on EH101 AEW's main radar's range is approx 100 nautical miles. Not to mention E2C's radar's huge range of 300+ NM

cheers

 

[isthvan]

Thanks for the data. It seems to me to be rather short 85km in terms of range... my understanding on EH101 AEW's main radar's range is approx 100 nautical miles. Not to mention E2C's radar's huge range of 300+ NM

cheers

Yes but Y-8j is more maritime surveillance plane then true AEW platform, basically it is experience gathering platform…
China has designed few indigenous AEW platforms which are true AEW aircrafts which are comparable to western AEW platforms…

 

[contedicavour]

Yes but Y-8j is more maritime surveillance plane then true AEW platform, basically it is experience gathering platform…
China has designed few indigenous AEW platforms which are true AEW aircrafts which are comparable to western AEW platforms…

Hmm in this case we can say the only real AEW asset for embarked operations is the KA31 Helix being imported from Russia.

cheers

 

[kams]

News of Y-7 based AEW platform started circulating last year. There are news reports that during a visit to the 603 Institute by the Chinese Vice Premier in April 2005, a model of Y-7 AWACS was shown.

During a visit to the 603 Institute by the Chinese Vice Premier in April 2005, the head of the institute introduced a new AWACS model to the visitors. The model appears similar to American E-2C, characterized by a large rotodome and a large cooling intake behind the cockpit. It also features two high-efficient 6-blade propellers. This new AWACS might be based on the Y-7/An-24 passenger aircraft and has been speculated to be carrierborne. However so far there is no confirmation. The emergence of Y-7 AWACS suggests that Chinese are working on multiple platforms at multiple levels to enhance their AWACS capability.

Y-7 awacs

Any more news in Chinese media? (Can't read Chinese )

 

[kams]

Thanks for the data. It seems to me to be rather short 85km in terms of range... my understanding on EH101 AEW's main radar's range is approx 100 nautical miles. Not to mention E2C's radar's huge range of 300+ NM

cheers

Even KA-31 has a does not have that kind of detection range. For fighter sized aircraft (1-2 sq m RCS) detection range is around 150 km and for ships its around 250 km. KA-31 has limited endurance (2.5 hr vs 5 hrs of EH-101), so IN has a buddy-buddy refueling installed in their KA-31.

 

[zoolander]

didnt one of the chinese y-7 prototypes crash?

quick question what is the difference between a corvette and a missile boat?
cause IN use the term corvette while the PLAN use missile boat

is there any possibility to lauch chinese anti ship missiles vertically. It would be alot more stealthy that way

 

[kams]

didnt one of the chinese y-7 prototypes crash?

quick question what is the difference between a corvette and a missile boat?
cause IN use the term corvette while the PLAN use missile boat

is there any possibility to lauch chinese anti ship missiles vertically. It would be alot more stealthy that way

It was not Y-7...I think y-7 is yet to fly.

 

[Sea Toby]

A good rule of thumb would be a displacement of 1,000 tons. Many fast attack craft, or guided missile patrol boats are of less than 1,000 tons with ship to ship missiles being their main armament whereas a corvette is larger than 1,000 tons with more range along with the possiblity but not necessarily adding a self defence surface to air missile capaiblity and/or a helicopter facility.

 

[kams]

A good rule of thumb would be a displacement of 1,000 tons. Many fast attack craft, or guided missile patrol boats are of less than 1,000 tons with ship to ship missiles being their main armament whereas a corvette is larger than 1,000 tons with more range along with the possiblity but not necessarily adding a self defence surface to air missile capaiblity and/or a helicopter facility.

mmm ok..in case of IN, the Veer class has a displacement of 500 T, yet they are classified as Corvettes, where as Sukanya class (1890 T) classified as OFFSHORE PATROL VESSELS

 

[tphuang]

I think I need to clarify a little bit.
Y-8J is not really that useful in AEW, since its radar in A2A mode may not be powerful than fighter jets. What it really is used for is in providing targetting information for ships in OTH attacks.

KJ-200 should have better capability against aerial targets, but since it is in PLAN, it must also have good detection capability against sea targets.

Y-7 - it will have to be on a CATOBAR carrier, so Varyag is out of question.

ka-31 - certainly, its a lot more versatile to be a helicopter, but in the end of the day, it's still a helicopter. There is no way it can be a capable as E-2C.

As for ka-28, I'm talking about the guidance of AShM，not targetting. Generally, I'd say bandstand is a big part of the OTH ASuW of any modern PLAN DDG.

 

[kams]

Without a credible Airborne platform, using ships radar for ASuW mission is dangerous. Hunter may become hunted . In any case how do you use ship based radar for surface warfare (OTH). Their surface range detection limited to around 40 -50 km (assuming a 40 ft tall mast and target at 40 ft high).

 

[tphuang]

Without a credible Airborne platform, using ships radar for ASuW mission is dangerous. Hunter may become hunted . In any case how do you use ship based radar for surface warfare (OTH). Their surface range detection limited to around 40 -50 km (assuming a 40 ft tall mast and target at 40 ft high).

It's bandstand. They use some kind of technology to bounce off ionosphere I think? You might be able to find out a little more on how it works by googling it. Anyhow, it comes standard with Sov for the Moskit, but China has somehow modified it to allow it to guide its own missiles.

 

[kams]

It's bandstand. They use some kind of technology to bounce off ionosphere I think? You might be able to find out a little more on how it works by googling it. Anyhow, it comes standard with Sov for the Moskit, but China has somehow modified it to allow it to guide its own missiles.

As far as I know ionosphere scatter tech is not used for naval radars, but for coastal radar (weather radars). I recently read an article about one such radr installed in Australia. As I understood, its useless for targetting.

 

[Grand Danois]

As far as I know ionosphere scatter tech is not used for naval radars, but for coastal radar (weather radars). I recently read an article about one such radr installed in Australia. As I understood, its useless for targetting.

That is also how I understand such systems to work. Active systems that use backscatter from the ionosphere have to be static and calibrated. They also use low frequency emissions, which means very poor resolution and OTH targeting ability.

The Band Stand is also used for fire control for a ships guns ie implication is it uses high frequency emissions. It can, however, also be used as a long range passive ESM.

If that includes looking for multipath signals, eg bounced of the ionosphere, that is a possibility. But I do have my doubts as to quality of the targeting solution from such a source...

 

[kams]

That is also how I understand such systems to work. Active systems that use backscatter from the ionosphere have to be static and calibrated. They also use low frequency emissions, which means very poor resolution and OTH targeting ability.

The Bandstand is also used for firecontrol for a ships guns ie implication is it uses high frequency emissions. It can, however, also be used as a long range passive ESM.

If that includes looking for multipath signals, eg bounced of the ionosphere, that is a possibility. But I do have my doubts as to quality of the targeting solution from such a source...

Thats what I thought. Low frequency emission means huge antena. To use Ionosphere scatter signals you need huge processing power and still the result may not be good enough for targeting.

 

[tphuang]

Thats what I thought. Low frequency emission means huge antena. To use Ionosphere scatter signals you need huge processing power and still the result may not be good enough for targeting.

yeah, I'm not sure how effective bandstand is at targetting and guiding missiles. The fact that they are putting it (or at least a cloned version) on the latest Chinese DDGs seem to indicate they are satisfied with it at some level.

 

[kams]

yeah, I'm not sure how effective bandstand is at targetting and guiding missiles. The fact that they are putting it (or at least a cloned version) on the latest Chinese DDGs seem to indicate they are satisfied with it at some level.

My thoughts are,

Anti-ship missiles are targetted/guided by air borne assets through data link. Ship based radars are most effective in anti-arcraft and anti-missile role. Please feel free to correct me. (this situation not specific to India or China)