Canada may buy Nuclear Subs!

[SamuraiBlue]

Hi,

I was involved in the trials in putting the Victoria Class submarines back to sea in Canadian hands - recently at that. What many don't know is that these submarines while perhaps good in stealth design were never properly trialed in UK hands, as the UK knew they were going to nuclear only boats. Canada has invested a great deal of manpower and treasure to make these boats work, and in obtaining parts without offending BAE (to put it mildly) is another story.

I worked with a former Aussie Collins sub guru during my time on the Victoria class, and I don't feel they were much better than the Victoria class; however, the sub for Canada would've likely been or be a version of the German submarine that the Israeli's have with AIP, so Canada could protect it's Arctic sovereignty.

The Victoria class, if it ever works half decently is because of all the money and time that Canadian engineers and technicians have sunk into them.

This is my professional opinion and of those that have worked on them - not to mention the crews that work like dogs on them!

Nuclear boats have never been acceptable to the Canadian public or politicians - it would be political suicide! The Americans never wanted us to have nuke boats, as they would not have the control of the Arctic that they do now. I believe the UK reactors are of US design and ITAR restrictions, but I'm not sure about the French? I firmly believe a German design for Canada and built in Canada with Berlin's hand is the way to go.

Jon
Halifax, Nova Scotia

Hi from Japan

Would like to ask, have you ever considered Japanese Subs like the Australians?
They have come here to inspect the Soryu class SSK which much more larger than the German type 214 which I believe is required in patrolling the Arctic seas especially in the winter.

 

[Volkodav]

Hi,

I was involved in the trials in putting the Victoria Class submarines back to sea in Canadian hands - recently at that. What many don't know is that these submarines while perhaps good in stealth design were never properly trialed in UK hands, as the UK knew they were going to nuclear only boats. Canada has invested a great deal of manpower and treasure to make these boats work, and in obtaining parts without offending BAE (to put it mildly) is another story.

I worked with a former Aussie Collins sub guru during my time on the Victoria class, and I don't feel they were much better than the Victoria class; however, the sub for Canada would've likely been or be a version of the German submarine that the Israeli's have with AIP, so Canada could protect it's Arctic sovereignty.

The Victoria class, if it ever works half decently is because of all the money and time that Canadian engineers and technicians have sunk into them.

This is my professional opinion and of those that have worked on them - not to mention the crews that work like dogs on them!

Nuclear boats have never been acceptable to the Canadian public or politicians - it would be political suicide! The Americans never wanted us to have nuke boats, as they would not have the control of the Arctic that they do now. I believe the UK reactors are of US design and ITAR restrictions, but I'm not sure about the French? I firmly believe a German design for Canada and built in Canada with Berlin's hand is the way to go.

Jon
Halifax, Nova Scotia

Hello Jon, welcome.

I have heard from collegues some of the issues with the Victorias and I don't envy you at all. I also work with a bloke who was on the build for them who insists they are the best conventional boats ever built and that Australia would be much better off had we bought them instead of the Collins. (personally I think he also rates Rovers and Hillmans over Mercedes, Tiger Moths over F-22s etc.)

I think the difference between the Collins and Victoria is that the Collins have issues with known solutions that have not been implemented for political and financial reasons where the Victorias suffer from the traditional English naval issue of being a great platform with very poorly designed and sorted systems.

Ironically the German option for what became the Collins was actually inferior in many ways, it was not for instance capable of carrying out the RANs specified and expected CONOPS. The Germans were working on the basis that they knew better and the RAN would just need to adapt to what they got. The RAN on the other hand wanted something that could do more than their existing Oberons, not less.

To be honest, had Canada ordered between four and six modified Collins at the end of the Australian build, instead of the Victorias, they would have received a significantly more capable and reliable boat than either navy currently boasts. The issues with the Collins related primarily to subcontracted systems from a variety of suppliers that would have been replaced with better systems on any follow on boats, i.e. the diesels, electric motors, main motor, periscope, propeller shaft seals etc.

The big thing with Australian interest in Japanese sub design is their superb propulsion systems, CS is covered by the US relationship and sourcing the batteries and platform are pretty well sorted already.

 

[jondsc]

Japanese Submarine

Thanks,

Sadly, I've never looked much to the Japanese submarines, but I will have a look, and I'm sure like most things Japanese that they are excellent machines.

Jon

 

[jondsc]

Hello Jon, welcome.

I have heard from colleges some of the issues with the Victorias and I don't envy you at all. I also work with a bloke who was on the build for them who insists they are the best conventional boats ever built and that Australia would be much better off had we bought them instead of the Collins. (personally I think he also rates Rovers and Hillmans over Mercedes, Tiger Moths over F-22s etc.)

I think the difference between the Collins and Victoria is that the Collins have issues with known solutions that have not been implemented for political and financial reasons where the Victorias suffer from the traditional English naval issue of being a great platform with very poorly designed and sorted systems.

Ironically the German option for what became the Collins was actually inferior in many ways, it was not for instance capable of carrying out the RANs specified and expected CONOPS. The Germans were working on the basis that they knew better and the RAN would just need to adapt to what they got. The RAN on the other hand wanted something that could do more than their existing Oberons, not less.

To be honest, had Canada ordered between four and six modified Collins at the end of the Australian build, instead of the Victorias, they would have received a significantly more capable and reliable boat than either navy currently boasts. The issues with the Collins related primarily to subcontracted systems from a variety of suppliers that would have been replaced with better systems on any follow on boats, i.e. the diesels, electric motors, main motor, periscope, propeller shaft seals etc.

The big thing with Australian interest in Japanese sub design is their superb propulsion systems, CS is covered by the US relationship and sourcing the batteries and platform are pretty well sorted already.

Hi Volkodav,

I think you've pretty much nailed everything accurately there. We've come across problems with systems on the Victoria Class that seem to defy science at times, or at least add a new dimension to it, and I've seen some pretty talented people doing a lot of head scratching for a long time until solutions were found, but I believe the same could be said for many submarines and marine systems.

WHEN the Victoria Class have actually worked their stealth is first rate and in war games with a large component of red ships, aircraft, and US attack subs they have proven virtually undetectable; however, that is rare for now anyways.

You are right in saying the layout of the subs is difficult, even if they were modeled after the UK T-boats (nuclear). Many systems are primitive, but generally work, and the spare part situation is troublesome.

I believe at the time the Canadian Navy would've preferred a new submarine, but with the political climate of the day, IE Jean Cretien's Liberal party, new submarines were not on the table, so it was take what you can or have nothing.

Now we have what we have, but if we would've teamed up with Australia, at least we would've had some continuity with parts, operations, crew exchange, know how, etc.

I'm sure Canada will have these boats running well, as we've historically been good at making good use with other countries old equipment, as expensive and frustrating as it my be.

Most of it's politics and such is life.

Jon

 

[SteelTiger 177]

Now will the Royal Canadian Nvay be buy them from either the U.S. or from Great Britain? this is quite a challenge for Canada for and Brazil which is also acquiring SSNs for its navy.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Now will the Royal Canadian Nvay be buy them from either the U.S. or from Great Britain? this is quite a challenge for Canada for and Brazil which is also acquiring SSNs for its navy.

How is it a challenge?

It's certainly not going to be for Brasil

 

[StobieWan]

Now will the Royal Canadian Nvay be buy them from either the U.S. or from Great Britain? this is quite a challenge for Canada for and Brazil which is also acquiring SSNs for its navy.

I doubt very much that there'd be any political appetite for acquiring from the UK - the perception from the last buy of RN subs was that they were sold a set of pups. If Canada was looking at SSN's (which they're not) then the US would be a natural partner.

As is, it'll be an SSK and as has been laid out in this thread and the RAN thread, it'll likely be an adapted foreign design with a large US component in terms of sensors and systems.

 

[D_H_S]

The Victoria class Attack submarine is a work in progress and from a pure research and scientific point, not to mention the experience we are gaining in the underwater game, it is a engineers dream. If I remember correctly the public was on-board before the purchase, as the anechoic tiles were the selling point. At the time of buying the subs anechoic was unheard of and it was to provide a level of stealth that would put Canadian sub captains and her respective crews on the map as a serious naval warfare contender, they were to add a extension to our Halifax class SUB/Hunter killer class.
When Canada is done with these subs we will sell them to the highest bidder and there will be lots of prospective buyers as the subs will be upgraded and very seaworthy, and most likely very very quite,but we will never recoup the actual dollar amount spent and people will be upset. We will however have a very capable sub reconnoiter team ready for perhaps our own investments into the SSK development internationally.

 

[AegisFC]

No. The Victoria's have been a tale of woe for Canada ever since getting them from the UK. Some of that woe was self inflicted (the disaster of retrofitting MK-48 and using the FCS gear from the subs they replaced) but most of it was build quality issues and being improperly stored for years before being recommissioned.
The only reason why Canada got those subs was because it was them or nothing, Australia was offered those subs as well and they couldn't back away fast enough.

 

[StobieWan]

Yup - they'd been put away wet and never wiped down, followed by a number of user based decisions or operator errors that really took the edge off what remained of their capability. If they'd gone as hot transfers straight from the RN, with stocks of parts, and Canada had taken Spearfish on board as well, they'd likely have been pretty good in service.

The Australians had the same opportunity to crawl all over them that the Canadian guys had - and in fact, I *believe* one Canadian Navy guy was present when the RAN delivered their verdict post survey.

They were very capable SSK's for the time - all the juicy goodness of a Trafalgar more or less. Leave 'em standing in water, picked over for spares and rotting, not so much,

Ian

 

[D_H_S]

Well this whole debate doesn't matter much, if the Canadians do not pick the Rafael as the next fighter for Canada we won't have the technology transfer from France, to use to upgrade what ever sub we chose to a SSN anyhow. That was the deal, we buy Rafael and get plans for french nuclear subs, most likely to build here in Canada.

 

[StobieWan]

Umm...where do I go with this?

Do you know what, nope, can't be polite. WTF are you on about?

First off, Canada is not buying any nuclear subs. If it were, the French would fall over themselves to sell technical assistance and spread their development costs over their own fleet - as would pretty much all the major SSN operators- Canada is a safe security bet, we'd pitch in quite cheerfully, as would the US. There's no requirement to link a sale to Canada buying Rafale.

Neither has Rafale ever come up seriously in terms of a sale to my knowledge.

Given Rafale isn't likely to be much (if any) cheaper to buy than F35 and may cost similar amounts to run (two engines...) and there's no workshare, where's the attraction?

 

[RobWilliams]

Why look towards France for nuclear submarine tech when you have the best managed and executed SSN program on the planet in the US producing a very capable boat? When I read about their deliveries I keep seeing "X months ahead of schedule" and "$X below budget" AFAIK.

I dunno, that might just be me, but IMO if you look to stepping into that area without prior experience (and Aus slips in here too) and have very good relations with the US, why not?

 

[Bonza]

Well this whole debate doesn't matter much, if the Canadians do not pick the Rafael as the next fighter for Canada we won't have the technology transfer from France, to use to upgrade what ever sub we chose to a SSN anyhow. That was the deal, we buy Rafael and get plans for french nuclear subs, most likely to build here in Canada.

Source please.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Well this whole debate doesn't matter much, if the Canadians do not pick the Rafael as the next fighter for Canada we won't have the technology transfer from France, to use to upgrade what ever sub we chose to a SSN anyhow. That was the deal, we buy Rafael and get plans for french nuclear subs, most likely to build here in Canada.

I'd suggest that you front up with a credible source - which I doubt you can do because I know first hand that the above is just not so.

There are a variety of interoperability and operational constraints which exclude the french from being able to compete for any major Canadian fleet acquisition - and I use "fleet" at the logistics definition level, not the platform definition level

 

[ngatimozart]

Well this whole debate doesn't matter much, if the Canadians do not pick the Rafael as the next fighter for Canada we won't have the technology transfer from France, to use to upgrade what ever sub we chose to a SSN anyhow. That was the deal, we buy Rafael and get plans for french nuclear subs, most likely to build here in Canada.

My son, you are very new here having made four posts, all of which contain unsubstantiated and possibly outlandish claims. Secondly, when some senior people here, who do have rather substantial professional knowledge about these matters, attempt to give you guidance you ignore it. Some of those said same people are also Mods here and don't take kindly to the rules being ignored.

So my son a couple of suggestions to help you avoid suffering the wrath of the Mods. Read the rules especially the one about supporting any claims you make with verifiable evidence and sources. The second suggestion is don't irritate the Mods and do battle with them, because you will not win. By the way I am not a mod, but you need to realise that the rules are for the reading of and adhering to0, and that there are expectations on all of us to have reasonable logical discussions, laced with verifiable facts. Here endeth the lesson.

 

[John Fedup]

Why look towards France for nuclear submarine tech when you have the best managed and executed SSN program on the planet in the US producing a very capable boat? When I read about their deliveries I keep seeing "X months ahead of schedule" and "$X below budget" AFAIK.

I dunno, that might just be me, but IMO if you look to stepping into that area without prior experience (and Aus slips in here too) and have very good relations with the US, why not?

The USN likely wants all production for the US only for the next decade at least. Furthermore I doubt the US wants its SSN technology going to Canada. Since the UK's Asute class uses US reactor technology under license this is not an option either. None of this matters since Canada's SSN ambitions ended in 1992 with the defeat on the Mulroney govt.

 

[John Fedup]

The Victoria class Attack submarine is a work in progress and from a pure research and scientific point, not to mention the experience we are gaining in the underwater game, it is a engineers dream. If I remember correctly the public was on-board before the purchase, as the anechoic tiles were the selling point. At the time of buying the subs anechoic was unheard of and it was to provide a level of stealth that would put Canadian sub captains and her respective crews on the map as a serious naval warfare contender, they were to add a extension to our Halifax class SUB/Hunter killer class.
When Canada is done with these subs we will sell them to the highest bidder and there will be lots of prospective buyers as the subs will be upgraded and very seaworthy, and most likely very very quite,but we will never recoup the actual dollar amount spent and people will be upset. We will however have a very capable sub reconnoiter team ready for perhaps our own investments into the SSK development internationally.

When Canada is done with these subs they will be sold for scrap as they will be over 40 years old.

 

[John Fedup]

No. The Victoria's have been a tale of woe for Canada ever since getting them from the UK. Some of that woe was self inflicted (the disaster of retrofitting MK-48 and using the FCS gear from the subs they replaced) but most of it was build quality issues and being improperly stored for years before being recommissioned.
The only reason why Canada got those subs was because it was them or nothing, Australia was offered those subs as well and they couldn't back away fast enough.

Exactly right, the RCN wanted to retain its sub capability and our cheap POS prime minister Chretien made the Victoria class the only option. Our pathetic national ship building program includes several billion dollars for totally useless Arctic patrol vessels which should be scraped in favour of 4 AIP/diesel electric subs (German). SSNs would be a better option but politically a buy is impossible and neither the US or UK would sell them to us anyway. When the Victoria class is retired Canada's submarine era will end.

 

[John Fedup]

Well this whole debate doesn't matter much, if the Canadians do not pick the Rafael as the next fighter for Canada we won't have the technology transfer from France, to use to upgrade what ever sub we chose to a SSN anyhow. That was the deal, we buy Rafael and get plans for french nuclear subs, most likely to build here in Canada.

I am not sure which has a lower probability, a Rafale purchase or a SSN. In any event the probability of either is as close to zero as you can get. For that matter, a purchase order for any new jet fighter will likely happen after the second coming!