Canada may buy Nuclear Subs!

[StobieWan]

Yup - and if you're suffering from indigestion, job's a good 'un.

Thing is, I said from the outset, perfectly happy to entertain the conversation but it would mean changing the entire CONOPS for the RN - right now, the RN gets really good use out of it's subs, they go a long way, can be flexibly repositioned as TLAM shooters etc etc. You just have to look the recent tour by one of the Trafalgars, try doing that with an AIP sub...

Hell, the run the Conqueror did - straight out of Portsmouth with crew walking on slabs of tinned food, 8,000 miles to get *on station* at 20 knots and *then* start a patrol.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Thing is, I said from the outset, perfectly happy to entertain the conversation but it would mean changing the entire CONOPS for the RN

Rule No: 1

Never argue with an idiot - they're better at it than you are.

funny thing I've confirmed over the years is that the technical jihadists are usually the least informed and are never in the running as the SME anyway

poncing about and yelling only reinforces that their actual knowledge and arguments for same are visibly "thin"

 

[gf0012-aust]

Yep, he really doesn't get it, not sure why, it's not as if it's a difficult concept to grasp.

that's the problem with technical jihadists... their fervour constrains their ability to understand that the debate is more than the "animal farm" logic of "2 legs good, 4 legs bad" etc.....

they usually revert to canned scenarios, irrelevant scenarios (ie nothing to do with the countries actual requirements) or trot out technobabble in the quest to bluff.

nukes aren't the holy grail for everyone, AIP isn't for all conventionals...

what seems patently obvious often isn't.

 

[StobieWan]

Rule No: 1

Never argue with an idiot - they're better at it than you are.

funny thing I've confirmed over the years is that the technical jihadists are usually the least informed and are never in the running as the SME anyway

poncing about and yelling only reinforces that their actual knowledge and arguments for same are visibly "thin"

I know Problem is, at some point, silence becomes complicity. Bugger..

 

[gf0012-aust]

I know Problem is, at some point, silence becomes complicity. Bugger..

Yep, been a victim myself, there's a point where you're compelled to say something - and that just gives them oxygen

I should happily point that I have ignored the above suggestion/advice myself

eg there's a part of me that just wants to go back and humiliate sweetman in front of all his fans about his knowledge about "warfighting and warfighter" terminology, but I just grit my teeth and let him continue to bask in his aura of self righteous and pompous pulpit tantrums

anyway, the candians will find it tough managing the arctic territories without subs when the russians are happy to continue to stake claims on the shelf, plant lots of flags to establish ownership (under their interpretation of int law) - and they're rebuilding their northern fleet and intend escalating sub patrols under and around the arctic cap - with nukes

 

[StobieWan]

I usually just answer "around" the bloke - ignore anything directed at me, particularly if it's insults at dawn - seemed to wind him up considerably.

The Canadians are going to have to motor just to stand still with their navy - everything is approaching replacement and now the Russians are, as you say, flexing their muscles..I suspect the Victoria's have poisoned the well in terms of buying replacements - they'll be subject to an awful amount of scrutiny as a program - not that anything is even in the planning phase as yet?



Ian

 

[John Fedup]

I usually just answer "around" the bloke - ignore anything directed at me, particularly if it's insults at dawn - seemed to wind him up considerably.

The Canadians are going to have to motor just to stand still with their navy - everything is approaching replacement and now the Russians are, as you say, flexing their muscles..I suspect the Victoria's have poisoned the well in terms of buying replacements - they'll be subject to an awful amount of scrutiny as a program - not that anything is even in the planning phase as yet?

In Canada we have a national ship building program that will never produce anything any time soon. Subs, the best choice for Arctic patrol, will never be ordered again. This is due more to govt stupidity than the Victoria experience. It was this same stupidity that acquired these boats in the first place. Perhaps we should just dump the Arctic back to the First Nations inhabitants since most development gets delayed in court. No more welfare payments and we can down size our navy to a microscopic level, sometime that will appeal to our brain-dead leftard electorate.

 

[Blackshoe]

Short question: how capable in general are D/Es and AIP boats in under-ice operations? I vaguely recall information that said they weren't good at it due to the battery limitations, but don't really remember where that came from. I do know that under-ice capability is something the Canadians are going to desperately want if they do get another class of submarines.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Short question: how capable in general are D/Es and AIP boats in under-ice operations? I vaguely recall information that said they weren't good at it due to the battery limitations, but don't really remember where that came from. I do know that under-ice capability is something the Canadians are going to desperately want if they do get another class of submarines.

they're not built for it.... hence our deliberately vague references to conops and op constraints earlier...

 

[My2Cents]

Short question: how capable in general are D/Es and AIP boats in under-ice operations? I vaguely recall information that said they weren't good at it due to the battery limitations, but don't really remember where that came from. I do know that under-ice capability is something the Canadians are going to desperately want if they do get another class of submarines.

Range is limited by available power. If you run out of power and can’t find an open lead or punch through the ice to surface, you die by suffocation.

• For a D/E range is probably 1/3 of the battery charge to give you a safety margin to return to the last point where you could snorkel to recharge.
• AIP can go farther, but the cruise speed will be very slow to avoid using the batteries so they can stay at full charge. Most designs only allow about 4 knots, so you will probably need to avoid areas with moderate to strong currents. It may be better to operate like a D/E submarine and safe the AIP for emergencies or combat.

D/E and AIP submarines lose a lot of their advantage under ice as they need to use active sonar to find open leads for recharging. Being tied to the locations of these leads also makes them more vulnerable to another sub lying in wait, like a hunter at a water hole.

Lastly there is the problem of pressure ridges in the ice that can extend up 150 ft below the surface, forcing you to cruise in deeper water and giving up your advantages in shallow water operation, or to use active sonar again.